Charlie has lost so much weight!

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Charlie's Mom123

Member Since 2017
Hi everyone. It has been a long time since I've posted. Charlie was diagnosed as diabetic about a year ago. Currently he's at 4 units 2x a day of Lantus. His numbers have never normalized. He has been given his Lantus at .25 increments but no amount has helped really. I haven't been keeping up with the spreadsheet but his numbers are about the same. He was at the vet about a month ago and had complete blood work. His heart, liver, kidneys, and thyroid are all functioning at a level of a younger, non-diabetic cat.

He has lost a lot of weight. The vet can't figure out why. I have 6 weeks of Vitamin B12 shots (2 weeks left) to give him as B12 helps the body retain nutrients from food. It doesn't appear to be helping yet. The vet said the next step would be steroids but that is a last resort as steroids can wreak havoc on blood sugars.

He is currently eating Whiskas soft food (anything Pate, but usually chicken or chicken & liver), plus I've started him on 1/4 cup of Whiskas Cat Milk (a supplement designed to help kittens and cats gain weight).

Chicken & Liver and Chicken (both kinds are the same numbers)
Protein 8% Minimum
Fat 3.5 % Minimum
Fiber 1% Max
Moisture 82% Max

Cat Milk

Protein 3.4 % Min
Fat 2.2% Min
Fiber 0.4% Max
Moisture 88% Max
Calcium .1% Min
Taurine .05% Min
Lactose .2% Max

Can someone give me some idea of what to do? I've also been giving him dark meat chicken as a treat to add some fat to his diet but I don't want to overdo it.

Thanks so much in advance! I will update his weights as I get them from the vet.
 
Hi
The food is not the problem and the milk won't help. Your cat is losing weight because the blood sugar is not controlled and he is not processing the food correctly. I don't understand how the vet cannot figure this out.
The question is, why is this cat on the same amount of insulin for this long when the dose is not working? Why wasn't the dose raised till progress was seen?
You need to get back to basics. That means testing before every shot and raising the dose 1/2 unit at a time every 4 days or so till you find a dose that works. The amount of food you feed, the supplements you give just won't work without the right dose of insulin.
Also, how old is the insulin you are using? were you advised to never shoot air or insulin back into the vial/pen as that may contaminate it?
You can do this. You can get your cat healthy and have it thrive again. Start doing the tests, filling out the sheets and join the lantus group so you can get help as you need it.
 
Ken and Sneakers said:
Hi
The food is not the problem and the milk won't help. Your cat is losing weight because the blood sugar is not controlled and he is not processing the food correctly. I don't understand how the vet cannot figure this out.
The question is, why is this cat on the same amount of insulin for this long when the dose is not working? Why wasn't the dose raised till progress was seen?
You need to get back to basics. That means testing before every shot and raising the dose 1/2 unit at a time every 4 days or so till you find a dose that works. The amount of food you feed, the supplements you give just won't work without the right dose of insulin.
Also, how old is the insulin you are using? were you advised to never shoot air or insulin back into the vial/pen as that may contaminate it?
You can do this. You can get your cat healthy and have it thrive again. Start doing the tests, filling out the sheets and join the lantus group so you can get help as you need it.
Click to expand...

I should have mentioned that we went up to 6units 2x per day of Lantus but it didn't help. The vet knows that his blood sugar is why the food isn't absorbing but we are trying anything and everything at this point. B12 has been shown to help some in non-controlled diabetic cats.

The insulin I get new every 6 weeks or so and yes, I know how to properly administer it. I will look around the Lantus group, thanks!
 
Charlie's Mom123 said:
Hi everyone. It has been a long time since I've posted. Charlie was diagnosed as diabetic about a year ago. Currently he's at 4 units 2x a day of Lantus. His numbers have never normalized. He has been given his Lantus at .25 increments but no amount has helped really. I haven't been keeping up with the spreadsheet but his numbers are about the same. He was at the vet about a month ago and had complete blood work. His heart, liver, kidneys, and thyroid are all functioning at a level of a younger, non-diabetic cat.

He has lost a lot of weight. The vet can't figure out why. I have 6 weeks of Vitamin B12 shots (2 weeks left) to give him as B12 helps the body retain nutrients from food. It doesn't appear to be helping yet. The vet said the next step would be steroids but that is a last resort as steroids can wreak havoc on blood sugars.

He is currently eating Whiskas soft food (anything Pate, but usually chicken or chicken & liver), plus I've started him on 1/4 cup of Whiskas Cat Milk (a supplement designed to help kittens and cats gain weight).

Chicken & Liver and Chicken (both kinds are the same numbers)
Protein 8% Minimum
Fat 3.5 % Minimum
Fiber 1% Max
Moisture 82% Max

Cat Milk

Protein 3.4 % Min
Fat 2.2% Min
Fiber 0.4% Max
Moisture 88% Max
Calcium .1% Min
Taurine .05% Min
Lactose .2% Max

Can someone give me some idea of what to do? I've also been giving him dark meat chicken as a treat to add some fat to his diet but I don't want to overdo it.

Thanks so much in advance! I will update his weights as I get them from the vet.
Click to expand...
How much weight has Charlie lost and over what period of time? 13 is about the age my Elvis started to lose weight with no explanation. He weighed about 14 lbs then and is now about 10, with most of that 4 lb. drop coming in the last year. Everything is fine according to the vet, insulin free, and his BGs have been normal now for more than 3 years .

I have recently learned there is something called Skinny Old Cat Syndrome... here's an article that may prove helpful: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.co...hat-s-going-sponsored-purina-veterinary-diets

Good luck!
 
Hi

I am not a regular poster here these days but feel I should follow through with you.
I don't believe you need to change the insulin every 6 weeks as long as it is kept refrigerated and used properly.
There are cats that need higher doses then others to break the glucose toxicity. There are 2 stages to this treatment.
Usually there is a certain dose needed to break toxicity and then after it is broken there is usually another lower dose needed to maintain and slowly lower the numbers towards what would be normal or close to normal numbers for a non diabetic cat. If you went to 6 units and the toxicity did not change then I don't understand why you didn't go to 6 1/2 and why you are back at a dose that does not work. I believe you should start again by raising the dose in half unit increments again till you find that dose that will break the toxicity. I would also think it is much better if you start testing pre-shots again instead of testing in the middle of the cycle.
I'm sure many would disagree with my next statement. I do not believe you need spot checks right now with the numbers this high, the pre shot tests are more important. It is also important that the shots are as close to 12 hours apart as possible as being late sometimes and early sometimes will affect the 'overlap' which is how lantus works
I wish you the very best of luck.
 
Ken is correct. Your kitteh is unregulated. That means all the food that is eaten is not being absorbed..because you are not dosing enough insulin. The situation sounds grim. Get to a vet who understands diabetes. Or become more active on the forum and we will help.
 
Elvis said:
How much weight has Charlie lost and over what period of time? 13 is about the age my Elvis started to lose weight with no explanation. He weighed about 14 lbs then and is now about 10, with most of that 4 lb. drop coming in the last year. Everything is fine according to the vet, insulin free, and his BGs have been normal now for more than 3 years .

I have recently learned there is something called Skinny Old Cat Syndrome... here's an article that may prove helpful: http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.co...hat-s-going-sponsored-purina-veterinary-diets

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Charlie has lost 9 pounds over 11 months. Very bad.
 
Ken and Sneakers said:
Hi

I am not a regular poster here these days but feel I should follow through with you.
I don't believe you need to change the insulin every 6 weeks as long as it is kept refrigerated and used properly.
There are cats that need higher doses then others to break the glucose toxicity. There are 2 stages to this treatment.
Usually there is a certain dose needed to break toxicity and then after it is broken there is usually another lower dose needed to maintain and slowly lower the numbers towards what would be normal or close to normal numbers for a non diabetic cat. If you went to 6 units and the toxicity did not change then I don't understand why you didn't go to 6 1/2 and why you are back at a dose that does not work. I believe you should start again by raising the dose in half unit increments again till you find that dose that will break the toxicity. I would also think it is much better if you start testing pre-shots again instead of testing in the middle of the cycle.
I'm sure many would disagree with my next statement. I do not believe you need spot checks right now with the numbers this high, the pre shot tests are more important. It is also important that the shots are as close to 12 hours apart as possible as being late sometimes and early sometimes will affect the 'overlap' which is how lantus works
I wish you the very best of luck.
Click to expand...

I took your advice and now have him at 6.5Units 2x per day. Numbers have not decreased as of yet. I will increase it to 7 on Tuesday and then do a curve. His pre-test numbers are between 24 and 28.
 
Has anyone tried injecting into the flank or stomach? I just read that using the scruff of the neck isn't always the best place. Sometimes the insulin doesn't get absorbed at all. So I'm going to try that tomorrow! Wish us luck!
 
You may be right about where you are injecting. From what I've been told there can be scar tissue that builds up if the injection is given in the same place over and over. I had the best luck with injecting in the side.
Good luck, and hoping this may be the answer to him not absorbing enough insulin.
 
Kudos to you for starting the spreadsheet. It is also important to test before each dose (AM preshot = AMPS) and PMPS. You are looking for midpoint blood glucose values between 100-200. Those are called nadirs. If the values don't go into that range during the nadir, then your cat is basically starving to death. This is pretty critical at this point because of the massive weight loss.

Injection site - can be varied. I move it around:
- scruff
- upper side of front legs
- flank skin -upper side of back legs

I always pull out small tent of skin and dose into that tent. That avoids an injection into the muscle.

Charlie is in dire condition at this point. If your vet is experienced in diabetes, keep working with them. Otherwise I would find a new vet.
 
Lillie said:
You may be right about where you are injecting. From what I've been told there can be scar tissue that builds up if the injection is given in the same place over and over. I had the best luck with injecting in the side.
Good luck, and hoping this may be the answer to him not absorbing enough insulin.
Click to expand...

I started injecting on the side today. And he went from 26.7 to 20.1 in 3 hours (480.6 to 361.8). It's such a huge victory! It's obviously not in the 'right' place as far as his numbers go but I've been so used to him only going down maybe 1 point, not 6 in three hours! I finally feel like I have hope! I will be updating my spreadsheet!
 
JeffJ said:
Kudos to you for starting the spreadsheet. It is also important to test before each dose (AM preshot = AMPS) and PMPS. You are looking for midpoint blood glucose values between 100-200. Those are called nadirs. If the values don't go into that range during the nadir, then your cat is basically starving to death. This is pretty critical at this point because of the massive weight loss.

Injection site - can be varied. I move it around:
- scruff
- upper side of front legs
- flank skin -upper side of back legs

I always pull out small tent of skin and dose into that tent. That avoids an injection into the muscle.

Charlie is in dire condition at this point. If your vet is experienced in diabetes, keep working with them. Otherwise I would find a new vet.
Click to expand...

I started injecting on the side today. And he went from 26.7 to 20.1 in 3 hours (480.6 to 361.8). It's such a huge victory! It's obviously not in the 'right' place as far as his numbers go but I've been so used to him only going down maybe 1 point, not 6 in three hours! I finally feel like I have hope! I will be updating my spreadsheet!
 
Good news indeed! Charlie is in bad shape. But we can't change the dose too quickly. If you can test before dosing, that also helps.

Let's see how he responds to this dose for 5-6 doses before adjusting. Also make sure he has plenty of food - he can over eat at this point since he needs any calories he can get. Generally, I'm more conservative than others on dose changes. But hypos are a big fear of mine. Please read up about hypoglycemia - see the links in the insulin subforums, and be ready in case Charlie ever reads too low.
 
JeffJ said:
Good news indeed! Charlie is in bad shape. But we can't change the dose too quickly. If you can test before dosing, that also helps.

Let's see how he responds to this dose for 5-6 doses before adjusting. Also make sure he has plenty of food - he can over eat at this point since he needs any calories he can get. Generally, I'm more conservative than others on dose changes. But hypos are a big fear of mine. Please read up about hypoglycemia - see the links in the insulin subforums, and be ready in case Charlie ever reads too low.
Click to expand...

I am all ready for a hypo. I've had my emergency kit ready since he was diagnosed. He is definitely overeating. I feed him whenever he wants it. I'm also scared of upping his dose too fast so there's no fear of that. And I am doing pre-tests before he eats in the mornings.
 
I have made the difficult decision to send Charlie to The Bridge on Oct.31 at 4:30pm. We held hands this morning and I asked him if he was tired. He closed his eyes and rubbed his cheek on my skin. I knew that meant 'yes'. We will spend the week loving each other, taking pics, and cuddling. And then I will hold him as he crosses over. I will continue to test and give him insulin and a miracle could happen but I really feel like he's ready to go.
 
I'm really sorry to hear this. I was really rooting for him.

It's never easy is it. We all try our hardest to keep our sweet kittehs healthy and live with us forever. You had 15 great years with him. Those are some great memories you will always have.
 
Charlie's Mom123 said:
I have made the difficult decision to send Charlie to The Bridge on Oct.31 at 4:30pm. We held hands this morning and I asked him if he was tired. He closed his eyes and rubbed his cheek on my skin. I knew that meant 'yes'. We will spend the week loving each other, taking pics, and cuddling. And then I will hold him as he crosses over. I will continue to test and give him insulin and a miracle could happen but I really feel like he's ready to go.
Click to expand...
Praying for healing or a peaceful passing. :(
 
Prayers and strength sent for you at this difficult time :bighug::bighug::bighug:


images
 
Thank you everyone for the support! I thought the decision had been made but I spoke to Charlie's vet and she doesn't think it's time. She asked me a bunch of questions to determine what his quality of life was. She determined from my answers that he still has a good quality life and I shouldn't be basing this decision on high numbers and weight loss. I was playing with him tonight with one of those laser pointers and he was running and jumping all over the place.

My plan for now is to keep the appointment for Tuesday and see how the next week or so goes. My vet has been so awesome and I trust her but ultimately this is Charlie's decision and he'll let me know in my heart what the best decision is.
 
I agree with your decision, it doesn’t sound like Charlie’s ready to leave yet! What dose is he on now? My cat got up to 17u twice/day before seeing good numbers. There are a few conditions that make some kitties need a higher dose.
 
Charlie's Mom123 said:
Thank you everyone for the support! I thought the decision had been made but I spoke to Charlie's vet and she doesn't think it's time. She asked me a bunch of questions to determine what his quality of life was. She determined from my answers that he still has a good quality life and I shouldn't be basing this decision on high numbers and weight loss. I was playing with him tonight with one of those laser pointers and he was running and jumping all over the place.

My plan for now is to keep the appointment for Tuesday and see how the next week or so goes. My vet has been so awesome and I trust her but ultimately this is Charlie's decision and he'll let me know in my heart what the best decision is.
Click to expand...
If he's still running and playing then I agree with your vet.
 
We woke up this morning and Charlie has a very bad tooth infection. He has bad teeth but they haven't been bothering him. Today is different. He is unable to eat much and is having trouble drinking. His lip is curled back and he is unable to close his mouth. He is now suffering. I will be calling my vet shortly.
 
JanetNJ said:
Teeth can be fixed. My cat just had one pulled.
Click to expand...
Noah needed ALL his teeth pulled a long time ago but would not have survived the surgery. The details don't matter right now. BUPE and something I can't find the words for have given him a meaningful and pain free life.
 
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