? 30 Aug | Girlie | AMPS 617; +1=644; +3=540 Food advice/dose advice

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Girlie's mom

Girlie's mom

Member Since 2017
Condo: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...all-black-today-dose-increase-or-wait.183097/

Don't think yesterday am was a fur shot after all... This morning did triple check re: plunger all the way in; held syringe there for a "1 kitty" count; held plunger down as withdrew; smelled fur: She got the shot! :-)

Gave Holistic Select LC 4 for breakfast: not keen; sometimes puts four paws down for this food and Wellness; can't predict. Always loves FF and ProPlan

Food advice/dose increase: have been having conversations since yesterday (my time) re: LLC vs LC and whether Girlie was in consistent high black numbers on 29 Aug because
  • she was bouncing from dramatic dives of from 558 to 347 in 2 hours on 27 Aug then from 652 to 295 in three hours on 28 Aug or
  • the LC 7 food mix (1/2 LC 1 + 1/2 MC 13 = LC 7) is too high LC or
  • she needs a dose increase
Just fyi, she's been steadily gaining weight: from 3.5 kg in June to 3.73 kg now, in case that makes a difference.

Any thoughts? :-)

Just fyi I'll be away and can't monitor
  • today from AM+6 to AM+11 and
  • tomorrow (31 Aug) from AM+3 to AM+7
Thanks! :-)
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
If you'll be home for 4 days, I would stick to foods that are low carb. That would mean below 10% carb but most of us use food that's at most 5% or lower (or thereabout). I think this will give you a much better sense of where Girlie's numbers actually are.

Yes, Gabby was a drama queen and her numbers would plummet fast and early.
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Hi Sienne - I've transferred this last question to today's post to continue the conversation here, instead. :-)

As someone who had a diving queen, when would you intervene with some MC food? If I see Girlie diving more than 50-100 points per hour, then I'll try a little mc food as she's shown in the past that LC won't bring her up. She grazes every 1 - 2 hours on LC food, so if she's done a deep dive, additional LC won't bring her up because she dived on that LC food to begin with.

Because of the time difference for Australia vs. North America, most people aren't available to help with food intervention when I ask. Do you have some thoughts on that I could use for future reference or is this an ECID thing?

Again - thanks so much! :)
 
Marvin's Mom - Nat said:
That is weird, I would not have expected a whole day of blacks. It's possible that it is a bounce. This may sound silly, but test your own blood, to check it issue with meter.
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That's a great idea. I have a second AlphaTRAK2 as a backup, and I also have some different test strips that I've been trying as well as a possible backup for the AlphaTRAK 2 (taking you to the cleaners at the cost). So I've already gone through 50 Freestyle Lite test strips and compared them with the ATrak2, and they are almost exactly alike. But I'll try the second meter WITH the two different strips and - for fun! I'll add myself into the mix. I'm not a cat, though, so not sure what my test would tell me as I use a pet meter - or should I just use the two separate meters on Girlie and spare myself? This is going to be entertaining! :eek::D
 
Marvin's Mom - Nat said:
it's no worse that accidentally poking yourself when poking kitty's ear lol I drew blood on myself more than a few times :rolleyes:
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Drumroll at +1: Too close to be bad strips or bad meter, aren't they?

AlphaTRAK2 original: AT2 strip: 644

AlphaTRAK2 backup: AT2 strip: 691; Freestyle Lite strip: 679

The AlphaTRAK2 via is new (from pm of 28 Aug). But I can do the control solution test on both strips and meters as well: do you think I should try that as well?
 
Okay: I don't have diabetes and wouldn't if I were a cat. Good to know!

The control solution said that the test strips are fine and the meter is fine. So it's Girlie, but that was fun! Actually, hurt like the devil to poke myself. Why doesn't it seem to hurt her? We must have heaps more nerve endings in our fingertips than cats do in their ears...
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I can tell you how I handled Gabby's numbers but please keep in mind, what worked for my kitty may not work for yours. A lot has to do with when a drop in numbers occurs relative to a cat's nadir. The challenge is that given how you've been handling food, it's hard to know where Girlie's nadir typically falls. I would handle drops differently early vs late in the cycle. In addition, Gabby never really saw numbers as high as what you're seeing with Girlie. The other issue to consider is that I had over 6 years of dealing with a drama queen. I am very experienced at dealing with low numbers and they don't cause me to panic or at least past the first couple of times they didn't cause me to panic.

Gabby's nadir typically fell between +3 and +4 (except when it didn't). If it was a weekday, I didn't have much flexibility with my time in the morning, at least on most days unless I called in with a "migraine." I tested early and often. If you'll look at Gabby's SS, I would typically test at +1, +2 and so on depending on where her numbers were. There were times I was testing on the half hour or even more frequently because I didn't trust her not to drop. She also was fed at pre-shot, +1 and +2. Front loading her food helped to soften the dropping numbers given how early her nadir was. Unless there was a precipitous drop, I would first intervene with LC and re-test in 30 min. Based on that information, I would increase the carbs. Gabby couldn't tolerate the gluten in HC food. As a result, I would use either corn syrup or honey to steer her numbers. The numbers of drops of syrup was based on how fast she was dropping. If you look in the comments section of her spreadsheet, you'll see when I was intervening with HC.

All I can tell you is that this isn't an exact science. Fundamentally, you need to operate out of the basic Lantus/Lev Land principle of, "know thy cat." Knowing when onset begins and where nadir falls and how much duration your getting is crucial So is knowing how your cat responds to food. Some cats get a rise from LC food. Others you need to be heavy handed with HC to get numbers to come up.

We do have members in Europe who's times may be more compatible with yours. @Gill & George is often around when the rest of us are sleeping. I don't know if @Bron and Sheba is accessible to you. She's experienced and if you were to send her or Gill a PM, they are likely to get notified via e-mail.
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Thanks, Sienne. I've copied your post from the 29 Aug here so I can keep this whole discussion in one post at a time - I hope that's okay!

Girlie also typically drops at +3 or +4, which is why you'll see me testing at +1. I feed Girlie at pre-shot and she grazes pretty much every hour or two at the most. I take her food away several hours before her next shot is due. I'd have to double check, but I don't think I've intervened with HC when she's had a huge dive unless it's been really, really dramatic and/or I have to go away and she's been doing deep dives on the previous days and looks like she might (e.g. on 24 Aug when I was at work most of the day; that was the beginning of the failed reduction, though I didn't realise that at the time). And I understand that even HC food will wear off and shouldn't necessarily cause what I've been seeing in Girlie since 24 August - is that right?

It doesn't seem like Girlie gets a rise from LC food as - if she did - she wouldn't be bottoming out and diving on it, is that right? But MC will bring her up, and I always have glucose syrup if it's looking really dodgy.

I've been trying to do the front loading (this is back before this run of black) as well.

It's good to see we're on the same page. Doesn't look like she's going to be dropping today, either, though.
 
So: She's not keen on the LC4 Holistic select: not "mushy" enough for her. Gave her some Wellness LC4 at +1 (post test): also not jumping for joy at that one. Last night she had Wellness LC 6. During the day she had her LC 7 (mix of 1/2 LC 1 and 1/2 MC 13) which usually brought her down but kept her from dive bombing, at least.

Determinedly in black. Any thoughts, anyone? I'm assuming a dose increase is required, but it would be great to have that confirmed. Also, if anyone wants to weigh in on the food issue and the bounces and whether this looks like an almighty bounce or a need for a dose increase or a food-related issue, that would be super as well.
 
I can't help with advice, but just wanted to say hello and I'm thinking of you and Girlie. Don't you hate black though?! Prayers for some answers for you. :bighug:
 
You aren't annoying, but you are definitely frustrated. :bighug: I don't blame you!
You say she likes FF, so why not try sticking with just FF for a while? It is a nice consistently LC food. Then don't use food to steer her, but test a lot. Ride it out and only steer if you get greens. Give her a chance to adjust. If no improvement in 6 cycles, increase. I know, it would be scary and take balls of steel.
Keep in mind, I've only got about 2 more weeks of experience than you do, so I'm still an inexperienced newbie like you!
 
Girlie's mom said:
Thanks so, so much, Glennie! Maybe I've been too annoying lately... most likely true... :)
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Not a tiny bit of annoyance here--just a whole lot of lack of expertise on my part. I hesitate to give advice because I often get it wrong. I thought I had posted this last night, but guess not.

I agree with Alicia. I would stick with feeding the FF Classic unless she gets into greens. It's less complicated for you and might work better for Girlie. :bighug: It wouldn't hurt to try as long as you're testing. :)
 
Yes,
Mandy & Rex said:
@Kris & Teasel, I thought you may want to share your experience with your bouncy boy. I remember you said you no longer steer with food unless he gets too low.
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Yes, I do very little food steering. If there's a huge drop at +2 I give him a snack of his regulat LC food. If he dives into lime green, I start with LC at first but then go to honey added to LC if needed. I don't use gravy style foods because they don't agree with him.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Yes,

Yes, I do very little food steering. If there's a huge drop at +2 I give him a snack of his regulat LC food. If he dives into lime green, I start with LC at first but then go to honey added to LC if needed. I don't use gravy style foods because they don't agree with him.
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New day for me today, but thought I'd reply here first.

Thank you so much for replying! I guess the tremendously entertaining thing about Girlie is that she's a quick, deep diver: that's why I always try to get an AM +1, +2, and +3. So she'll do dramatic dives and then she'll bounce. I do try to front load her as well (sounds like she's a truck!) before her +3 with her LC food. I'm assuming front loading is giving them a fair amount of food in the +1 to +3: is that right?

She's also a grazer, and the LC food she's been grazing on doesn't seem to bring her up from a deep dive, which is why it was suggested that for Girlie, it looks like I might have to use a little MC food to bring her up if she does a dramatic, deep dive (320 pts in 2 hours on 12 Aug and 357 in 3 hours on 28 Aug) or goes into really low greens.

What I've been looking at a lot recently is how she responds to LLC (0-2) vs. LC (6-9), and whether she drops less dramatically on the LC vs. the LLC. That seems to have been the case, which was why I was doing a FF mix of LLC and MC to get a LC of 7.

What do you think, Kris? Great SS by the way! :-)

She had a red (434) and a pink (346) yesterday, but other than that, consistently high black numbers still...
Giving her LC4 food and this AM, LLC 1 (her dive-bomb inciting FF Savoury Salmon...)
 
Girlie's mom said:
New day for me today, but thought I'd reply here first.

Thank you so much for replying! I guess the tremendously entertaining thing about Girlie is that she's a quick, deep diver: that's why I always try to get an AM +1, +2, and +3. So she'll do dramatic dives and then she'll bounce. I do try to front load her as well (sounds like she's a truck!) before her +3 with her LC food. I'm assuming front loading is giving them a fair amount of food in the +1 to +3: is that right?

She's also a grazer, and the LC food she's been grazing on doesn't seem to bring her up from a deep dive, which is why it was suggested that for Girlie, it looks like I might have to use a little MC food to bring her up if she does a dramatic, deep dive (320 pts in 2 hours on 12 Aug and 357 in 3 hours on 28 Aug) or goes into really low greens.

What I've been looking at a lot recently is how she responds to LLC (0-2) vs. LC (6-9), and whether she drops less dramatically on the LC vs. the LLC. That seems to have been the case, which was why I was doing a FF mix of LLC and MC to get a LC of 7.

What do you think, Kris? Great SS by the way! :)

She had a red (434) and a pink (346) yesterday, but other than that, consistently high black numbers still...
Giving her LC4 food and this AM, LLC 1 (her dive-bomb inciting FF Savoury Salmon...)
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All you can do is try these experiments and track the effects on the SS. My guy isn't very carb sensitive so I don't worry about keeping a supply of different grades of low carb food. As long as it's under 10% he's fine. As I said in my post I spike his LC with about 1/8 tsp honey when I need to rescue him from lime green. Other than that I don't do much food manipulation of BG. He's also a spiker and diver but his peaks aren't as high as Girlie's. He's much improved recently - after only 20 months at this game! o_O;)
 
Girlie's mom said:
I've copied your post from the 29 Aug here so I can keep this whole discussion in one post at a time - I hope that's okay!
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More than okay - in fact, that's what you're supposed to do! :)

Just for clarification, are you feeding LC or LLC normally, and adding the MC when she seems to be dropping faster? Or are you doing LC/MC all the time?

I really think that it's time for an increase. All that time in black numbers is NOT good for Girlie. I think you said you'd be able to monitor more starting tomorrow, is that right?
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
More than okay - in fact, that's what you're supposed to do! :)

Just for clarification, are you feeding LC or LLC normally, and adding the MC when she seems to be dropping faster? Or are you doing LC/MC all the time?

I really think that it's time for an increase. All that time in black numbers is NOT good for Girlie. I think you said you'd be able to monitor more starting tomorrow, is that right?
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Thank you! It's very reassuring to know that I'm doing the right thing (with the occasional stuff up, of course)... :-)

Yes: feeding LC or LLC normally and only give her MC straight (usually MC 12 or 13) if
  • she's done a dramatic, quick, deep dive (over 200 points) and (after testing) is still going down
  • she's done the above to low/close to low greens
I'm now okay with handling her low greens: I have glucose syrup (last resort) and know how to bring her up with MC (or HC as a last resort): I'm confident about that if I'm home and can monitor. I really worry that she'll deep dive while I'm gone, though, so if she's been diving and it looks like she's going to again and I have to go out, I'll leave some MC there just in case. One hypo and a week+ in hospital was enough! :-)

I've had trouble finding LC (5 - 8) that she'll eat, so this LC is usually a mix of 1/2 MC 12 and 1/2 LLC 0-1 (= LC 6.5). I'm pretty sure FF Roast Chicken is LC6 in Australia, though, and she's willing to eat that, though she won't scarf it down like she does the mushy foods, so that's a new addition to my food arsenal.

I'll be home tomorrow, and it looks like she's going to be steady black again today. Still negative for ketones. Girlie definitely does not look good in black - and such high blacks, too...

I wonder whether I should experiment and let her deep dive as low as she wants and then just manage the low greens to see how she goes without steering to try to stall her deep dive, but then I know I'll have to deal with the inevitable bounce. Any thoughts?
 
Girlie's mom said:
I've got to dash in to work, but I can answer this when I get back. What do you want examples of: deep dives? food steerings? Just let me know and I'll put that in when I get back. :)
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Examples of when in the past she's shown that LC won't bring her up.
Girlie's mom said:
During the day she had her LC 7 (mix of 1/2 LC 1 and 1/2 MC 13)
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I recommend you take advantage of your upcoming days off for some close observation. Keep the food simple. Stock up on cans of LC MC and HC and whichever is called for feed as is - no custom blending. Make sure and get mid cycle tests on the overnights too.
Girlie's mom said:
One hypo and a week+ in hospital was enough! :)
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Please fill us in on that...what happened and when?
 
Girlie's mom said:
I wonder whether I should experiment and let her deep dive as low as she wants and then just manage the low greens to see how she goes without steering to try to stall her deep dive, but then I know I'll have to deal with the inevitable bounce. Any thoughts?
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If you don't let her go as low as she can (without hitting shark territory), you won't really know where her nadir is, which makes it hard to tell if she is getting enough insulin. As long as you are monitoring and have the supplies, you can keep her safe.

@Sandy and Black Kitty, Darrah tells the story of Girlie's hypo and hospitalization on this thread. She summarized it again in post #32 if you don't want to read down the whole thing.
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
If you don't let her go as low as she can (without hitting shark territory), you won't really know where her nadir is, which makes it hard to tell if she is getting enough insulin. As long as you are monitoring and have the supplies, you can keep her safe.
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I agree.
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
@Sandy and Black Kitty, Darrah tells the story of Girlie's hypo and hospitalization on this thread. She summarized it again in post #32 if you don't want to read down the whole thing.
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Thank you!
 
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