Hello from Canada....we need some help....

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Toro & Ovi

Toro & Ovi

Member Since 2017
Hi all, our Maine Coon has been diagnosed with diabetes 3 weeks ago so we are new on this. Toronto is a 16 years old tomcat, pretty healthy ( 2.5 years back he had a radioactive iodine therapy for hyperthiroidism and since then he was fine). His weight is now 13.2 lbs. (which is pretty much the ideal weight for him) - down from 15.2 lbs at the end of 2016.
3 weeks ago has the blood and urine work and the blood glucose was 400 and +++ glucose in his urine. We started immediately with 1u of Lantus, twice per day. We changed the food from a mix of wet (gravy) and dry to low carbonate Fancy Feast pate.
For 2 weeks we didn't have a blood meter so we went blind - a week ago we started testing him with AlphaTrack 2 so we don't have too many readings around the clock as we are in a pretty tight schedule.
With the readings from the last week we observed a cycle as follows (rounded numbers): 400@+0, 350@+12, 200@+36, (205@+40, 130@+43), 115@+48 (where we skip the shot, too low reading), back to 400@+60...and the cycle pretty much repeats itself with (rounded numbers) 350@+72, 200@+84, 100@+96 (where we skip the shot, too low reading), back to 400@+108.....
Any suggestions to somehow stabilize him within an acceptable range without having to skip shots?
Thank you.
 
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Ovi said:
Hi all, our Maine Coon has been diagnosed with diabetes 3 weeks ago so we are new on this. Toronto is a 16 years old tomcat, pretty healthy ( 2.5 years back he had a radioactive iodine therapy for hyperthiroidism and since then he was fine). His weight is now 13.2 lbs. (which is pretty much the ideal weight for him) - down from 15.2 lbs at the end of 2016.
3 weeks ago has the blood and urine work and the blood glucose was 400 and +++ glucose in his urine. We started immediately with 1u of Lantus, twice per day. We changed the food from a mix of wet (gravy) and dry to low carbonate Fancy Feast pate.
For 2 weeks we didn't have a blood meter so we went blind - a week ago we started testing him with AlphaTrack 2 so we don't have too many readings around the clock as we are in a pretty tight schedule.
With the readings from the last week we observed a cycle as follows: 400@+0, 350@+12, 200@+36, (205@+40, 130@+43), 115@+48 (where we skip the shot, too low reading), back to 400@+60...and the cycle repeats itself with 350@+72, 200@+84, 100@+96 (where we skip the shot, too low reading), back to 400@+108.....
Any suggestions to somehow stabilize him within an acceptable range without having to skip shots?
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Welcome! Congratulations for testing your kitty's BG at home. It's the best tool you have to keep him safe. Your starting insulin dose is a good one and you're feeding the right food.

Re your numbers: there are some good numbers in there but I don't understand your dose timing. For example, does 200 @+36 mean a BG of 200 at 36 hours after injecting?? Please clarify so we can offer advice. :)

BTW - I'm in Ottawa.
 
Hi there from a fellow Canadian! Not sure whether you and Toronto are actually in Toronto? But I'm in London!

Your numbers are confusing me! What does 350@+12 mean? For us it means that his reading was 350 12 hours past shot time (which would be the next shot time)
 
Thank you for your quick response. We are actually from Vaughan, north of Toronto.
Yes, 350@+12 means the BG at the time of the second shot ( +0, +12,+24,+36 etc). I went from +0 to +108 to show the complete two cycles over 2 days (and 12 hours to show the start of the third cycle). We measure the BG 5-10 minutes before every shot (every 12 hours).
 
Just Hi from a fellow Torontonian! Nothing to help you sorry, I'm confused with my own kitty! And hi to the other Canucks too(didn't know you were!)
 
Here's the most basic testing routine we recommend:

Insulin Testing Routine

Here's how to approach finding the good dose range:

  1. test every day AM and PM before feeding and injecting (no food at least 2 hours before) to see if the planned dose is safe
  2. test at least once near mid cycle or at bedtime daily to see how low the BG goes
  3. do extra tests on days off to fill in the response picture
  4. if indicated by consistently high numbers on your SS, increase the dose by no more than 0.25 u at a time so you don't accidentally go right past a good dose
  5. post here for advice whenever you're confused or unsure of what to do.
There are two sets of dosing guidlines for Lantus that we promote, TR (Tight Regulation) and SLGS (Start Low Go Slow). there are yellow info stickies about each at the top of this forum's main page. Have a look when you have time to see what might suit you best.
 
Ovi said:
Thank you for your quick response. We are actually from Vaughan, north of Toronto.
Yes, 350@+12 means the BG at the time of the second shot ( +0, +12,+24,+36 etc). I went from +0 to +108 to show the complete two cycles over 2 days (and 12 hours to show the start of the third cycle). We measure the BG 5-10 minutes before every shot (every 12 hours).
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Ok so we consider each shot a new cycle. So the morning shot time test would be AMPS (PS stands for pre-shot) and then your various tests would be +3 +6 etc. Then your nighttime test right before you shoot would be PMPS and various shot times would be +3, +6 etc. The next morning it starts over again.
 
DAY 1: AMPS 400, PMPS 350
DAY 2: AMPS 200, PMPS 115 (skip the shot, too low reading)
DAY 3: AMPS 400, PMPS 350
DAY 4: AMPS 200, PMPS 100 (skip the shot, too low reading)
DAY 5: AMPS 400

There are 2 complete cycles - what can I do to avoid skipping the shot at the end of the cycle? Is the dose too big ? Clearly something is not right....
P.S. We follow the Insuline Testing Routine with no food 3 hours before shots, etc.
 
Ovi said:
DAY 1: AMPS 400, PMPS 350
DAY 2: AMPS 200, PMPS 115 (skip the shot, too low reading)
DAY 3: AMPS 400, PMPS 350
DAY 4: AMPS 200, PMPS 100 (skip the shot, too low reading)
DAY 5: AMPS 400

There are 2 complete cycles - what can I do to avoid skipping the shot at the end of the cycle? Is the dose too big ? Clearly something is not right....
P.S. We follow the Insuline Testing Routine with no food 3 hours before shots, etc.
Click to expand...
It's hard to know for sure but it seems he's bouncing higher and then dropping lower repeatedly in a fairly consistent manner. Yes, there are ways to deal with this but first you need to collect a lot of data. We use the spreadsheet as a picture of dose responses over time. The trends become very obvious most of the time. Once you have a lot of data it's possible to give insulin on a low BG like 100 but you're not there yet.

Please consider setting up the spreadsheet we use here. It's viewable by all members and is the first thing we look at before offering advice.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
 
Are you able to get some tests in during the day? It's important to find out how low he is going and when it is happening. A curve is handy to do occasionally when you test every hour (or even every 2 hours) to see what his cycle looks like.

On day 2 it's possible he dropped lower during the day and then came up to 115 at PMPS. Lantus is a depot drug so part of each shot is held in reserve until the depot is full. Skipping the shot is not ideal because it drains the depot and then you have a few cycles where the cat's numbers will be higher while the depot fills up again. It's possible that he is getting too much insulin but we need to see some more tests to determine that. I see that Kris has now given you a link to a spreadsheet; these are helpful in tracking his numbers!
 
Welcome! You are in the right place to get a wealth of information to help get Toronto regulated. There are many knowledgeable people here... but I'm not one of them, yet :) !
I do know that when you have the time you should set up a spreadsheet as Kris suggested. It enables other to give advice and provides you with a great visual tool to track Toronto's progress.
 
Hello from Montreal :) I agree with Kris, the best tool is the spread sheet for people here to help you. Since you are getting a low PMPS, it maybe that he is going very low mid cycle, and you are are getting bounces.

If you can fill out the spread sheet, it will be easier to see a pattern and is a great tool for you also. The stickies will also help, but start with the setting up the SS first.

Welcome you come to the right place, nice to see another fellow Canadian.
 
Joining the Canadian contingency here! @Ovi Welcome to FDMB. I'm in Etobicoke just south of you! And @Bitite we must practically be neighbours!:)

It would also be helpful if you could set up a signature so those assisting don't keep asking the same questions over and over. Your signature can include things like your name, kitty's name, weight, sex,, insulin name, glucometer you use, food Toronto is eating and general location and any other health history. To set this up, hover your mouse over your screen name in the upper right screen. A menu drops down and you select Signature from the left column. This opens a text box into which you can type this information. There is a limit of 3 lines of text so you can separate each piece of info with a slash or | if you start running out of space.
 
Thank you all, nice too see so many fellow Canadians here.
We will try to take more readings during the day and start a spread sheet - but Toronto is a tough cat to deal when is required...
After the latest skipped shot (because of low BG number) - the second one during the week - we decided to go lower - from 1u on 0.75u - and see what's happening during the next 3-5 days....as skipping a shot every 48 hours is not recommended. Keep in touch.
 
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Ovi said:
Thank you all, nice too see so many fellow Canadians here.
We will try to take more readings during the day and start a spread sheet - but this is a tough cat to deal when is required...
Anyways, after the latest skipped shot (because of low BG number) we decided to go lower - from 1u on 0.75u - and see what's happening during the next 3-5 days....as skipping a shot every 48 hours is not recommended. Keep in touch.
Click to expand...
If you need anything just ask, and with all the folks here we always have tips for those tough guys that don't like to be poked. Hope Ovi shows you some better numbers and less bounces....
 
Ovi said:
Thank you all, nice too see so many fellow Canadians here.
We will try to take more readings during the day and start a spread sheet - but this is a tough cat to deal when is required...
Anyways, after the latest skipped shot (because of low BG number) we decided to go lower - from 1u on 0.75u - and see what's happening during the next 3-5 days....as skipping a shot every 48 hours is not recommended. Keep in touch.
Click to expand...
Some suggestions to make testing easier.....take a sock, fill it with rice, tie a knot in the sock, and microwave it for a few seconds (I do 20 seconds) and hold it on Toronto's ear for a few seconds....it will help the blood flow easier and numbs the ear a bit so he won't feel the poke as much. Also, you can use polysporin on the ear after the poke. If Toronto likes treats (low carb of course) then by all means reward him after each poke.
 
Adding a hello from the smokey BC west coast. Welcome aboard. Read the Sticky Notes and ask lots of questions. It's a bit overwhelming at first, but we love to help. We all remember what it felt like at first.

Good plan cutting back to 0.75 units. It's always easier at the beginning if you can find a dose you can easily shoot twice a day. As you gain experience and data, you'll find you can shoot lower numbers. Lantus is great at producing nice flat cycles. When you shoot low, often the numbers won't change much that cycle. But that's for later when you have a better idea of Toronto onset, nadir and duration.
 
Hello everybody, I have a question about vacation.....being a thread full of fellow Canadians, does anybody know/recommend trusted vet-techs, pet sitters, pet boarding places able to deal (trained) with diabetic cats for few weeks? Any idea how much will cost something like that ?
We live in Vaughan, ON, Canada - right above Toronto.
Thank you !
 
There is a vet tech at my vet clinic who will do home visits so check with your vet (vets in your area) first as that might an option. There is Flying Duchess pet sitting https://www.flyingduchess.com/ and No Place Like Home http://catsitting.com/. I have used Flying Duchess and was quite happy with them but it was before diabetes. I have three cats and Flying Duchess used to give you the option of short or longer home visits and price depended on your choice. I think I paid something in the neighbourhood of $45.00 per day but that was a couple of year ago so you'd have to check on current rates.

I know there is another one that does medications too but can't recall the name offhand. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Personally, I found a friend willing to learn how to test and give insulin and she looks after my furkids for me when needed. If you have a neighbour or friend who is an animal lover, no harm asking!
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
There is a vet tech at my vet clinic who will do home visits so check with your vet (vets in your area) first as that might an option. There is Flying Duchess pet sitting https://www.flyingduchess.com/ and No Place Like Home http://catsitting.com/. I have used Flying Duchess and was quite happy with them but it was before diabetes. I have three cats and Flying Duchess used to give you the option of short or longer home visits and price depended on your choice. I think I paid something in the neighbourhood of $45.00 per day but that was a couple of year ago so you'd have to check on current rates.

I know there is another one that does medications too but can't recall the name offhand. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Personally, I found a friend willing to learn how to test and give insulin and she looks after my furkids for me when needed. If you have a neighbour or friend who is an animal lover, no harm asking!
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Thank you so much! My pet loving friends will feed and clean after Toronto if needed, but unfortunately they know nothing about blood tests and insulin...........Flying Duchess looks good -I have to contact them and see if they cover Vaughan, their web says they do book Insulin Needle visits. :-) .
 
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Neither did my friend but she actually offered to learn so I took her up on it and trained her myself. It worked out great! And my girl was so comfortable with her that I knew they'd be fine in my absence. :D
 
Toronto & Ovi said:
Hello everybody, I have a question about vacation.....being a thread full of fellow Canadians, does anybody know/recommend trusted vet-techs, pet sitters, pet boarding places able to deal (trained) with diabetic cats for few weeks? Any idea how much will cost something like that ?
We live in Vaughan, ON, Canada - right above Toronto.
Thank you !
Click to expand...

In London there is at least one woman that used to be a vet tech that now runs a pet sitting service and she will give insulin. Perhaps your vet knows of someone? Or go into Facebook and look for a "mom to mom in business" site and you may find someone there. In Facebook there is a feline diabetes group and perhaps there is another member from your area that would be willing to look after Toronto.

There is someone here in London that I met not too long ago....she fosters kitties.....if you're desperate and willing to bring Toronto to London :smuggrin:I could ask her if that's something she's ever done before or could do. And I'm only about 10 minutes away from her should she run into problems.
 
Judy and Boomer said:
In London there is at least one woman that used to be a vet tech that now runs a pet sitting service and she will give insulin. Perhaps your vet knows of someone? Or go into Facebook and look for a "mom to mom in business" site and you may find someone there. In Facebook there is a feline diabetes group and perhaps there is another member from your area that would be willing to look after Toronto.

There is someone here in London that I met not too long ago....she fosters kitties.....if you're desperate and willing to bring Toronto to London :smuggrin:I could ask her if that's something she's ever done before or could do. And I'm only about 10 minutes away from her should she run into problems.
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Thanks, I try to avoid to take Toro out of home....it takes 4-6 week to forgive me after a trip to the Vet. :)
 
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