Also need input on Vets dosage recommendation

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Delores7 said:
Actually we have a cple vets within 20-30 minutes fortunately....ye3h I am glad I asked about the dosage cos everything I had read since yesterday was lower and twice a day....I just feel so bad for giving him too much.
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You might want to phone interview the other vets and get a feel for how experienced they are with feline diabetes. I am in Winnipeg ( hi from a fellow Canadian) and the first vet I saw was an idiot. I changed vets and basically did all my own dose decisions on my own with the help of this forum. My new vet is fine with that since she agrees I know more than she does about FD.
 
I have to go out now, but at least I will be able to breathe easier now that you are back in touch with us. There are some great people helping you out, many with a lot of experience with Caninsulin, so just ask every question you can think of.

:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Delores, Vetsulin typically has it's 'peak' (strongest effect) at around 4 - 4.5 hours after the shot. But sometimes it can be as long as 6 -7 hours after the shot. But I don't remember ever seeing a kitty have peak of the cycle later than 7 hours after the shot on Vetsulin.
If it is now 7 hours after the shot it is very possible that the insulin may start to wear off from this point.

How is your kitty doing now?
When did he last eat?
Could be a good idea to give a snack now to ensure the blood glucose doesn't drop lower at this point and does start to rise.
.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
I see the closest major center to you is about 2 hours away in Ottawa. That's a big distance to travel.
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Welcome from just south of you in Peterborough. So glad you started reading about feline diabetes. You have probably just saved your cat's life by doing so. Feline diabetes is a steep learning curve. There are lots of Canucks on the forum. We can help you by telling you which meters are available in Canada, and which ones are the best to use and the least expensive. We can help you choose the best food available here as well.
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Welcome from just south of you in Peterborough. So glad you started reading about feline diabetes. You have probably just saved your cat's life by doing so. Feline diabetes is a steep learning curve. There are lots of Canucks on the forum. We can help you by telling you which meters are available in Canada, and which ones are the best to use and the least expensive. We can help you choose the best food available here as well.
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Thanks so much I really feel like I found the best support site for this condition!
 
When Casey is safe, and you've had a chance to breathe, and before you give another insulin shot (of any amount), you might want to run out to the drug store and get a glucometer. FreeStyle Lite is what most Canadians use. It takes the smallest amount of blood and has the cheapest strips of any glucometer available without ordering online. (The problem with ordering an only online glucometer/strips online is that you can't run out and buy strips quickly.) A vet might try and talk you into buying an AlphaTrak2, which is specifically designed for animals. The strips for the AlphaTrak2 are more expensive than the FreeStyle Lite, and you will go through more strips than you think. Being in a rural area, your immediate choices may be limited. Glucometers are fairly inexpensive. You do need to ask how much a pack of strips cost (that's where the expense can hit). The FreeStyle Lite strips should be $80-90 for 100. Otherwise, if you are a senior (or take a senior with you), you may be able save on the cost of strips by going on a Shoppers Drug Mart Seniors Day. There's also Walmart and Costco.

It would be a good idea as well to call around and look for a vet that has a lot of feline diabetes experience and preferably supports home testing.
 
Delores7 said:
Thanks so much I really feel like I found the best support site for this condition!
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Glad to hear your cat is doing well. I am quickly learning vets are not correct on insulin dosages. My poor girl is in the hospital as we speak. She had a seizure and severe hypo episode. She was on 5 or prozinc twice a day. Switched to 3 as of thursday. Monday she had the episode at 2 Am had i not stayed awake i would have never known.She is coming around slowly.. on no insulin ! Please be careful. I wouldnt want this to happen to anyone, i am a mess.
 
OMG!
I'm glad kitty is all right.
Delores, you are in good hands here, lots of lovely people helping you out.
We will get you out of this mess.
Have you found a different vet? Do you know what was blood glucose reading at the vets at diagnosis?
I'm so sorry to hear about your husband.
Now we need to make sure that your kitty is getting the right treatment.
Make sure he eats well.
Hugs
Marlena and Rocky:cat::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Delores7 said:
I just feel so bad for giving him too much.
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Delores, please don't feel bad about this, honey. You did what your vet asked you to do. (((Hugs)))
(....I do wonder if your vet deals with more diabetic dogs than with cats, because what the vet has suggested sounds more like canine diabetes treatment.)

Do take some time to breathe deeply.... This has been a tough day for you. :bighug:
But from this point onward you can begin again with your kitty's diabetes management.

As others have said it is hugely beneficial if you can learn to test Casey's blood glucose at home. That will enable you to see exactly how the insulin is working in his body. And it will also help you to get some feeling of control over this situation: The more we understand, the better we feel about things.

In a nutshell, 'home testing' involves pricking the outer edge of the ear to get a teensy weensy drop of blood; then transferring that blood droplet to a test strip in a glucose meter. Then the meter counts down and you get the result. And you reward your kitty with a treat or a cuddle.
Home testing shouldn't hurt your kitty; and a great many cats are just fine with the process if they know they'll get a reward. ...If you want to learn to hometest we can help you do that.

Can you tell us what you're feeding your kitty at the moment, Delores? Knowing that will help us to help you.

And how is he doing now? Does he seem OK?

Eliz
 
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Ninagirl143 said:
Glad to hear your cat is doing well. I am quickly learning vets are not correct on insulin dosages. My poor girl is in the hospital as we speak. She had a seizure and severe hypo episode. She was on 5 or prozinc twice a day. Switched to 3 as of thursday. Monday she had the episode at 2 Am had i not stayed awake i would have never known.She is coming around slowly.. on no insulin ! Please be careful. I wouldnt want this to happen to anyone, i am a mess.
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Nina, I'm so sorry to hear about your experience.
I never trust any medical professional any more, just question everything and of course they don't like it.
When Rocky was diagnosed I refused the insulin dose my vet suggested and we settled on a lower dose. One can always go higher after seeing how cat reacts to insulin. Injecting the cat with insulin shocks the system because insulin comes from outside the body, I think it confuses the system so we need to go slow with this. I wish some people including vets would understand this.

Please have some rest, it is nerve wracking but gets easier with time.
Keeping you and your girl in my thoughts.
Marlena
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
When Casey is safe, and you've had a chance to breathe, and before you give another insulin shot (of any amount), you might want to run out to the drug store and get a glucometer. FreeStyle Lite is what most Canadians use. It takes the smallest amount of blood and has the cheapest strips of any glucometer available without ordering online. (The problem with ordering an only online glucometer/strips online is that you can't run out and buy strips quickly.) A vet might try and talk you into buying an AlphaTrak2, which is specifically designed for animals. The strips for the AlphaTrak2 are more expensive than the FreeStyle Lite, and you will go through more strips than you think. Being in a rural area, your immediate choices may be limited. Glucometers are fairly inexpensive. You do need to ask how much a pack of strips cost (that's where the expense can hit). The FreeStyle Lite strips should be $80-90 for 100. Otherwise, if you are a senior (or take a senior with you), you may be able save on the cost of strips by going on a Shoppers Drug Mart Seniors Day. There's also Walmart and Costco.

It would be a good idea as well to call around and look for a vet that has a lot of feline diabetes experience and preferably supports home testing.
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My experience with Freestyle Lite meter is NOT very good. I think it is a good meter but for people. I have tried a few different meters and this one was reading so much lower than AlphaTrak by at least 2 points which so Rocky's number would be 18.6 on AlphaTrak but on FF Lite it was 16 which is too much of a difference for my liking. I had much better results with AccuChek Aviva - very close reading. At the moment I use AlphaTrak with Freestyle Lite test strips and that's working really well. I don't want to undermine the above advice, I only share my experience and voice an opinion.
 
Fellow Canadian here, just wanted to say that I'm very new to this too and when picking up a a bg meter for the first time last week at london drugs, most models were free as long as you bought 100 strips (and I'm already realizing how quickly you go through them!).

I really hope you can take care of yourself today too while checking on your fur baby. :bighug:
 
Hi from another fellow Canadian.....I'm just "down the road" from you in London!
I'm really happy that your kitty is ok! Is there anyone around that could go to the nearest Walmart, Costco, Shoppers, any grocery store with a pharmacy......and get a meter, test strips, and some kind of lancet device? Or if any of those places will deliver to you or even send the items by taxi? I wouldn't want you to leave your kitty right now but it would be helpful if you could test.
 
I use a Freestyle Lite meter and have learned to deal with the lower readings it gives me compared to my Alpha Trak meter. The test strips for this meter aren't cheap but the 20% discount on Seniors' Day helps plus you'll get Optimum points. I've been able to cash in those points on test strips a few times now and it feels like they're "free". :)
 
Hi from another fellow Canuck. I am way out west.

I am so glad that your kitty is ok. I would set your self up for some home testing and sage advice from the people here. And yeah, I would get a new vet.
 
Marlena said:
Nina, I'm so sorry to hear about your experience.
I never trust any medical professional any more, just question everything and of course they don't like it.
When Rocky was diagnosed I refused the insulin dose my vet suggested and we settled on a lower dose. One can always go higher after seeing how cat reacts to insulin. Injecting the cat with insulin shocks the system because insulin comes from outside the body, I think it confuses the system so we need to go slow with this. I wish some people including vets would understand this.

Please have some rest, it is nerve wracking but gets easier with time.
Keeping you and your girl in my thoughts.
Marlena
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Thank you so much. I agree I wish I would have known sooner not to up the dose to where we had her. I feel so bad for her. I just visited with her, She is alert not eating much but im glad she is moving around. Thanks again Good vibes and prayers are needed right now!
 
I'm so glad you kitty is okay! My heart leaped into my throat when I saw that your vet told you to give 8 units!!! That's insanely high for a starting dose and could well have been fatal. I would definitely look for another vet, if it was me, I would have a very hard time trusting this one ever again.
 
Squalliesmom said:
I'm so glad you kitty is okay! My heart leaped into my throat when I saw that your vet told you to give 8 units!!! That's insanely high for a starting dose and could well have been fatal. I would definitely look for another vet, if it was me, I would have a very hard time trusting this one ever again.
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Mine too! I was anxiously reading this thread :blackeye:. I do hope you will start home testing and drop that dose way down. Quite a few of us do not consult our Vet's about our kitties diabetes but each other since we have or are living and breathing FD 24/7/365 :bighug:
 
Hopefully things have calmed down some by now!!

Couple of ideas for you.....1st, get a meter anywhere you can for now, but you might want to consider the Bravo meter....it has the cheapest test strips (and you'll go through a lot of them!)

Next thing to consider is the insulin....Caninsulin isn't one of the better insulins for cats (although some do OK on it) but since you live in Canada, you can get a much better insulin over the counter!! Lantus or Levemir are gentler, longer lasting insulins that work really well in most cats. They are human insulins so are available at any pharmacy. Since you're not using your health insurance (since it's for a cat) you can just walk in and ask for it.

You've sure had a trial by fire!! Hopefully your kitty is OK tonight and I'd be looking for another vet too!!
 
Don't be too hard on yourself! My old vet prescribed 7 units of prozinc for my 9 pound cat. I gave him 7 units that night. 3 units the next morning because he only ate half his meal (old vet said give full dose no matter what but I knew that just didn't seem right) then I gave 7 units the next night. That's how I ended up here. He was in the 70s by 3 or 4 hours after his shot. This wonderful forum and members helped save my cat.
It's easy to trust the vet... I mean, it is their JOB right?! I never knew how little studying they had to do on feline Diabetes.
You're in the right place now!
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Good question Elizabeth. U 40 syringes have a red cap, U100 have an orange cap. Which one are you using?


u-40-and-u-100-syringes.png
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My syringes are orange and U40.
 
portana said:
My syringes are orange and U40.
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Thank you for that information

I did find this article:

"There are syringes designed for use with U100 insulin and syringes designed for use with U40 insulin. They were at one time color-coded: U100 syringes having orange caps while U40's have red ones[4][5]. Unfortunately some U40's now have orange caps, too -- check the barrel carefully for U40 or U100 to be sure!"

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe

So obviously the best thing to do is check the actual syringe barrel for the proper designation.
 
Casey Update...........my vet called and explained why the dosage; his BG was 23 and he also had a fever from unknown infection.....she has always been one of those rare vets that are awesome with people and totally loves her pet patients, she is always available for emergencies even on weekends and holidays .I have her home phone number and she has been treating feline diabetes for many years...she said we cud go down in dosage if i was worried and we cud do a test Saturday...but I really cant afford more vet bills right now especially since he has to go back a few more times over the next month. She didnt want to put him overnight because of the stress factor. She is calling tomorrow to check on how he is fairing.
I woke up in the middle of the night and was happy to find him laying next to me which he hasnt done in 10 days and he even did some lite grooming which he hasnt shown interest in for a while either....he is perkier today and when I ran a peacock feather in front of him he showed alot of interest and tried to grab it....he is eating his wet food with alot of interest also.
I am looking around online for an affordable monitor and especially strips as they seem to be what is so expensive and at some point this fall making food at home for my 3 cats. I didnt realise til the other day how bad dry food is for all cats in general.my other 2 boys , Frankie and Prince Harry , now also on just wet food, are both 12 and 15 months old and I want them to also be healthy as possible!
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Thank you for that information

I did find this article:

"There are syringes designed for use with U100 insulin and syringes designed for use with U40 insulin. They were at one time color-coded: U100 syringes having orange caps while U40's have red ones[4][5]. Unfortunately some U40's now have orange caps, too -- check the barrel carefully for U40 or U100 to be sure!"

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Syringe

So obviously the best thing to do is check the actual syringe barrel for the proper designation.
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I have the U40 RED Capped syringe and it says on the side 'use with U40 Insulin'
 
Hi Delores,

Very glad to see your update. We worry about all the kitties here. Here's my take: you obviously like your vet a lot so there's no reason you can't continue as usual with her. Kitties are more than just diabetes and she can help you with all that. I'm sorry if the avalanche of disagreement yesterday was confusing/worrying to you. There really is a ton of expertise here for handling feline diabetes. If you're willing to learn a bit about how we go about it, ask a lot of questions, etc. I think you can get your lovely kitty feeling better with our help. It sounds like your vet will follow your request to lower the insulin dose. That's good. Best case is having a vet who will work with an owner who wants to be more hands on.

You can save a lot of money by doing more of the FD treatment and tracking yourself at home. Yes, test strips for a blood glucose meter are expensive in Canada but there are deals to be had if you have a Shoppers Drug Mart near you or if you ever travel to a Walmart or Costco. There are other tips we can give to help you cut costs.

I strongly encourage you to let us help. We really do know what we're talking about. :bighug::)
 
Thank you so much for the info and encouragement....I know everyone here deals with this on a daily basis so there is tons of awesome helpful info and support here that I need...I will def check out costco and Shoppers Drugmart ....
I am also going to become as knowledgable as I can about this disorder...as that will only help me help Casey better!
 
Delores7 said:
unfortuantely I have the U40 Syringe I got from the vet
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hi again...I was looking at the pics and my syringe is the U40 but looks alot thinner than the red capped one pictured....I looked it up and it apparently is the smallest syringe and needle ...the diameter is quite small and only goes to 20 ul
 
Delores7 said:
hi again...I was looking at the pics and my syringe is the U40 but looks alot thinner than the red capped one pictured....I looked it up and it apparently is the smallest syringe and needle ...the diameter is quite small and only goes to 20 ul
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The syringes can have different capacities. The numbers on the side stand for units of insulin whereas the total volume a syringe can hold can vary from 0.2 mL to 0.3 mL to 0.4 mL, etc. Later on we can tell you more about using U100 syringes and a conversion chart with Caninsulin to be able to measure out tiny fractions of a dose. That's a topic for another day ... :)

Casey is a real cutie pie! :smuggrin:
 
Yes SO much to take in at 1st....I am happy to say Casey, who has been inside outside , tho more inside, wanted to go outside a a bit ago, so I went out with him and he is the most alert Ive seen him in the last 2 weeks...his coat seems to be getting its shine back and less dandruff and his eyes are brighter!
 
We have to remind ourselves not to get caught up in the numbers. Minding how they are feeling is very rewarding as well :cat:. Happy kitty, happy bean ;).

You can always go back through the posts at your own pace. I re-read many of mine to make sure I didn't overlook something :)
 
I hope your kitty is ok now. Sometimes even though our vets may be wonderfully kind and compassionate we need to make a choice as to what's in our cat's best interest health wise. I've had to add vets to my list for certain ailments that his regular vet was just not that good at even though I absolutely loved the vet. I hope everything goes well now for you and your kitty.
 
I really like my vet as well but we have had disagreements about Boomer's treatment. He used to disagree with my home testing; told me a kitty would not go hypo on Lantus...and thought I was poking Boomer's ear unnecessarily. Until one of his own cats became diabetic and spent 3 days in a coma because of a hypo. He has now admitted to me that he understands the need to test.
 
I've found several different opinions from different vets as to how to monitor and treat diabetic cats. One told me my cat could not die from a hypo and another told me there was no reason for me to test for ketones??? I was also never informed about transient diabetes and that it is possible a cat can quickly go into remission from a food change and weight loss. It really really pays to stay as informed as possible. Unless they are specializing in feline diabetes they just may not treat enough diabetic cats to be fully experienced with all the nuances and variations that happen. I do have a specialist now that is very well experienced in diabetes, so I'm grateful for this one.
 
Lillie said:
I've found several different opinions from different vets as to how to monitor and treat diabetic cats. One told me my cat could not die from a hypo and another told me there was no reason for me to test for ketones??? I was also never informed about transient diabetes and that it is possible a cat can quickly go into remission from a food change and weight loss. It really really pays to stay as informed as possible. Unless they are specializing in feline diabetes they just may not treat enough diabetic cats to be fully experienced with all the nuances and variations that happen. I do have a specialist now that is very well experienced in diabetes, so I'm grateful for this one.
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I was very misinformed myself. My nina had an almost deadly hypo episode just this Monday. It is most certainly deadly and everyone needs to be aware.. they believe she went into remission and was for quite alittle while now which is why its taking so long for the insulin to leave her body 3 days later she stopped eating much last week (she is an eater) i changed to wet food last thursday monday 2 am she had a hypo episode and seizure. I would not want this to happen to anyone! I have been on edge for a week now. I am sick over it. :(
 
I know the feeling. Mine went into remission quickly from diet change, weight loss, and three weeks of insulin. He had a minor hypo event but since I wasn't home testing yet I was still injecting insulin until I got him into the vet for his check. That scared me into home testing no matter what. Apparently there is such a thing as transient diabetes which no one informed about. Hope your kitty is doing ok now.
 
Wow! Another Canuck here so very glad to see the happy ending to this situation. My heart was pounding as I read through this thread. Unfortunately it's all too common for vets to prescribe excessive doses of insulin and that is often what brings people here to FDMB. It's hard to imagine a group of cat lovers have far more wisdom about the treatment of feline diabetes than most vets but that is the case. Delighted that Casey is Ok and hope you are recovering from the scare. We can help you get Casey, safely, on the road to better health and keep you sane in the process. :)
 
Dear Delores,
a starting dose of Caninsulin on BG of 23 (USA 414) is 1.5 - 2 units. I don't know where your vet got 8 units from - it is very scary as she treats other cats.
So lucky that Casey is fine, it could potentially have been a disaster.
So are you injecting insulin or not? What is your dose? Please be careful.
 
Delores7 said:
Yes SO much to take in at 1st....I am happy to say Casey, who has been inside outside , tho more inside, wanted to go outside a a bit ago, so I went out with him and he is the most alert Ive seen him in the last 2 weeks...his coat seems to be getting its shine back and less dandruff and his eyes are brighter!
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How is it going Delores?
 
well this is the 3rd day of 6 units instead of the 8...the vet said to try him on this if I was very concerned and he is more awake 30 minutes later instead of sleeping...he is eating and drinking more normally but still would like to eat 4 times a day...he is only getting low carb wet food and he is much more interested in playing and sitting in the window again etc...I need a monitor and will be getting one at the end of the month... and also he goes back for a checkup on the 26th...Im still not sure what a 'normal' diabetic cat in treatment looks like but I guess it is a learning process...and am very thankful for everyones input and concerns...I know once I can get a BG monitor it will help greatly also...TY all so much!
 
If you can possibly do so, I'd get a meter as soon as possible rather than waiting till the end of the month. 6 units is still a huge dose of insulin for most cats and definitely for one so newly diagnosed. And if that is still once a day dosing, that just doesn't work in most cats. I'm sure Casey is feeling better than he was on 8 units but I would still recommend a lot of caution especially if you have recently switched him over from dry to low carb wet food. That alone can reduce a cat's insulin needs quite a bit and in some lucky cases, even put the cat into remission.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
If you can possibly do so, I'd get a meter as soon as possible rather than waiting till the end of the month. 6 units is still a huge dose of insulin for most cats and definitely for one so newly diagnosed. And if that is still once a day dosing, that just doesn't work in most cats. I'm sure Casey is feeling better than he was on 8 units but I would still recommend a lot of caution especially if you have recently switched him over from dry to low carb wet food. That alone can reduce a cat's insulin needs quite a bit and in some lucky cases, even put the cat into remission.
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^^ agreed dealing with that currently . 8 days no insulin so far for my girl being periodically checked . Was on way tooo high a dose switched to wet and had a bad bad hypo . Be careful.. i wouldnt want anyone to have to go through it with their own. It is a heartbreaking thing to experience
 
Just so everyone knows...I would have gotten a monitor sooner but i couldnt afford one after the huge vet bill and I have to take him back on the 26th for a check up...I do not take this lightly at all...in fact this has been freaking stressful.

Okay I decided to try Casey on a 2il dosage this a.m.... I do realise i need to give him another dose in 12 hours.....a friend is loaning me some money so I can get a BG monitor asap....should have it by end of week
Until I get the BG monitor how can I tell if he is doing okay? At this point I do not know what to look for to be honest and am feeling beyond overwhelmed at this point.I cant afford to take him to another vet for a second opinion so that is not an option for me but I know there is alot of knowledge and experience here so I am trying to make informed decisions for Casey's sake. Thank everyone who is trying to help I do appreciate it a lot!
 
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Delores7 said:
OKAY ...LET ME ASK YOU ALL THEN IF i PUT HIM AT 2 UNITS...WHAT DO i LOOK FOR...HOW DO i KNOW IF HE IS RESPONDING WELL OR NOT WELL?....i would GET A BLOOD MONITOR SOONER OF corse...BUT it is a matter of not being able to afford it at the moment otherwise I do whatever I can to help my cat.. I do not havve the option of shelling out another $400 to get a second opinion... and not much vet choice here to begin with in this rural area...so what would you all do in my shoes?
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If I were in your shoes I would do 1 unit morning and evening and wait until the monitor came before I thought about raising the dose. Some cats are very sensitive to insulin and will never need more than that. For others they will need much more to find their "breakthrough dose". (For me I had to go up to 3 units but only for a short time before she needed it reduced again. Their needs can change quickly!) It's only another week and a half until you get the monitor.

Even at only 1 unit I would be sure to have honey on hand just to be sure.

Positive clinical signs would be decreased urine amounts, eating normal amounts, better energy.

Signs to watch for: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
 
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Hey Delores! Welcome to the sugar dance! I know is hard and I know it's frustrating- I've been in your shoes and walked a few miles. I was lucky and with the help I got here, Tempest (the kitty in my pic) wasn't on insulin for very long. :)

To answer your questions
Unfortunately there is no way to tell how kitty is doing on insulin unless you test. (I understand this is down to not having the money right now) keep an eye on the forums as sometimes people donate ones they aren't using any more. Or even e-bay you may be able to pick up one second hand.

I was also 'lucky' in that I ordered and had my meter before I started giving insulin. I didn't eat well for a bit and had to budget but I was absolutely terrified.

My SS is still up (please feel free to take a look) and I was also giving ProZinc - Tempest took a hypo right away basically and if not for these forums I'd have gone to bed and not known. The people here talked me through it. The scariest thing for me was that I wouldn't have known she had hypoed because she didn't look or act really weird. The only way I knew was from the meter reading.

I did talk to my vet about what happened and asked him how he had worked out how much to give and he had done so by weight (this is apparently how they treat diabetes in dogs). I also asked about the once a day thing. (Also how they treat diabetes in dogs).

How much do meters/strips cost where you are?
:bighug::bighug:
 
I like Janet's plan of reducing to 1 unit twice a day. Monitor Casey's appearance and behaviour visually as well as you can until you get your testing equipment. If he starts looking odd, yowling, walking in an unsteady way, seems out of it, etc. feed a little bit of higher carb food and post here for advice.
 
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