? 7/8 HELP! Post DKA Millie coming home tomorrow. Need help with her DKA/ketone issues.

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Sylvia & Millie

Member Since 2017
Millie was showing high numbers the last few days with no drop in BG. She then tested positive for ketones. I was giving lots of fluids and food but it didn't help. She vomitted in the afternoon and started to look pretty bad so we took her to the veterinary emergency hospital where she was admitted. I NEED HELP managing this for Millie. I know she tends to bounce very high and is ketone prone which makes this a lethal combination. I am hoping whoever has lots of experience can help me put together a treatment plan for her to keep her out of danger (and out of the hospital). This is quite serious since the hospital stays, etc has cost us close to $12,000 in the 6 months since Millie's diagnosis and we can not continue to do this.

PLEASE help me help her.
 
Sylvia, I have to preface my comments by saying I'm leaving the house shortly and can't be back on the board until late tonight. However, there's a few things you can do which will help others help you formulate a plan. Please update her spreadsheet with any info you get from the ER such as BG numbers & when they were taken, insulin given (kind of insulin, amount, and time), tests performed to determine any underlying causes for what's been going on and their results. Also, if she's been eating, how much, and what she's been eating.

Home care...
At this point, I think you'll have to power through with dose increases. In other words, you'll have to continue with dose increases every 4 - 6 cycles until she's no longer throwing ketones. If you choose to follow this kind of plan, finding out how low each dose is taking her becomes imperative. We can't just continue to throw dose increases at her without having a good idea of what's happening. It's not safe.

Speaking of safety, feeding MC or even HC if necessary is how you can help keep her safe while giving her the insulin she needs... in addition to monitoring frequently. Your job is to catch those lows. There's already signs she may be dropping low and then bouncing very high. I know this gets rough at night. Set an alarm if you have to.

Once your ketone strips come I would check for ketones twice a day until she's clear and then decrease to once a day for as long as necessary.

I mentioned underlying causes above. Have the vets come to any conclusions/ performed any diagnostics? I'd want to find out what's causing all this if I were in your shoes. Until she's treated for whatever the problem, I'm concerned this will become a vicious circle.

I'm sure others will stop by with suggestions. I'll check in tonight.
Wishing you the best!


 
Sylvia, I have to preface my comments by saying I'm leaving the house shortly and can't be back on the board until late tonight. However, there's a few things you can do which will help others help you formulate a plan. Please update her spreadsheet with any info you get from the ER such as BG numbers & when they were taken, insulin given (kind of insulin, amount, and time), tests performed to determine any underlying causes for what's been going on and their results. Also, if she's been eating, how much, and what she's been eating.

Home care...
At this point, I think you'll have to power through with dose increases. In other words, you'll have to continue with dose increases every 4 - 6 cycles until she's no longer throwing ketones. If you choose to follow this kind of plan, finding out how low each dose is taking her becomes imperative. We can't just continue to throw dose increases at her without having a good idea of what's happening. It's not safe.

Speaking of safety, feeding MC or even HC if necessary is how you can help keep her safe while giving her the insulin she needs... in addition to monitoring frequently. Your job is to catch those lows. There's already signs she may be dropping low and then bouncing very high. I know this gets rough at night. Set an alarm if you have to.

Once your ketone strips come I would check for ketones twice a day until she's clear and then decrease to once a day for as long as necessary.

I mentioned underlying causes above. Have the vets come to any conclusions/ performed any diagnostics? I'd want to find out what's causing all this if I were in your shoes. Until she's treated for whatever the problem, I'm concerned this will become a vicious circle.

I'm sure others will stop by with suggestions. I'll check in tonight.
Wishing you the best!

Thank you, Jill.

During her last hospitalization they did all sorts of diagnostics. At that time they found pancreatitis and an innocent heart murmur but nothing else.

Millie is on MC & HC food; she gets CORE Wellness chicken and when ketones are high I give her FF Gravy lovers. Maybe I can change her CORE food, I'll check the chart again.

I was actually trying to power through the dose increases, We increased twice in one week. She bounced and never came down. I was about to increase again but didn't get a chance. The high this time were confusing to me. because she didn't come down.

I have been checking for ketones 2-3 times a day, sometimes the urine in her litter box is too dry so I don't record those. I will continue to monitor her going forward.

So far the diagnostics have not found anything. They will be doing the PLI for pancreatitis.

Is it possible that she's insulin resistant so tends to bounce. Then with the increases, she's bouncing even higher (into the 600 & 700s) and then remaining there which then causes the ketones to develop (which she is now primed to produce) without any underlying causes? Just wondering........ She appears fine much of the time then things go south very quickly.

Also, should we be considering a different insulin?
 
Hi Sylvia, I am not an exert so will let the more experience members help with the DKA. However about the ketone tests, I had trouble testing my kittie as he has severe neuropathy and lays flat to pee. My vet told me, that I could take a bit of the clump of litter with pee add water and it will work to test for ketone. Please note, I have not seen anyone here mention that before, so I am assuming that what my vet said is true. Unfortunately I think the only way to confirm that it does work would be to test it out when ketones are present from normal way of testing, and then seeing if with litter and a bit of water if it also detects it. If anyone else happens to have heard this works maybe they will chime in too.

Best of luck with Millie, I am sure people here will be able to help.
 
Hi Sylvia, I am not an exert so will let the more experience members help with the DKA. However about the ketone tests, I had trouble testing my kittie as he has severe neuropathy and lays flat to pee. My vet told me, that I could take a bit of the clump of litter with pee add water and it will work to test for ketone. Please note, I have not seen anyone here mention that before, so I am assuming that what my vet said is true. Unfortunately I think the only way to confirm that it does work would be to test it out when ketones are present from normal way of testing, and then seeing if with litter and a bit of water if it also detects it. If anyone else happens to have heard this works maybe they will chime in too.

Best of luck with Millie, I am sure people here will be able to help.
Thank you. Yes, I also test from the litter box immediately after she's gone. I check throughout the day and do catch her as she's leaving (she won't go if I'm in there). Occasionally I don't trust the reading so I just try again. I didn't know about adding water and trying it that why. Will keep it in mind.
 
The vet called this evening. Millie is eating and looks better but she still has high ketone count even with the insulin they are giving her. Needless to say, she will be staying another day at the animal hospital. .
 
The vet called this evening. Millie is eating and looks better but she still has high ketone count even with the insulin they are giving her. Needless to say, she will be staying another day at the animal hospital. .
I sorry your kitty is stuck at the vet, I am sure you must want her at home. :hugs: , getting her numbers regulated better will help with home testing daily, to see what works best for her. In her spread sheet I do suggest that you show all days even if you didn't test on those days, I know some people may give you a bit of a hard time, but it all with love and wanting to help. I was one of those that took a long time to get into regular testing daily. I started with the pre-shots, and occasional additional, looking back now, I wish I had done more tests at the beginning as it would have helped me out more to help my kitty. Keep asking questions here, lots of people with experience. Today has been quiet, so suggest that you re-post your concern and questions tomorrow if you still want more input. @Jill & Alex (GA) made some great suggestions, and has a lot of experience here.

Marvin and I will send positive thoughts to your Millie, and don't give up. :cat: . BTW Millie is absolutely beautiful looking cat, she is gorgeous
 
Sylvia, I found this in one of the links in the stickies, under DKA, it's an extract of one of the conversations about DKA. You may want to check with the vet for exactly what they check and did for her. I am thinking underlying infection. There is other good info on DKA there too. Here's the link to the main DKA page http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...oacidosis-dka-and-blood-ketone-meters.135952/

I have a feeling Jill is probably one of the members with the most experience with this, and could guide you through. :)

----------------------
The Hows and Whys of Ketones

from Kathy and Cashew (GA)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Supplies of the Body

Before we discuss Diabetic Ketoacidosis let's review how ketones are used in the body. There are two basic forms of fuel the body uses to keep the body running at its most basic cellular level. The primary form of energy used is glucose. Glucose is obtained from digested foods (carbohydrates). Protein can also be converted to glucose in a process called gluconeogensis. Fat when digested is broken down into fatty acids and glycerol. Glycerol can also be converted to glucose. Fatty acids can used by the body or be converted to ketones. In addition to digested food, the body has reserves of fuel in the liver called glycogen, which can be converted to glucose when needed. There are also small stores of glycogen in muscle tissue. When necessary protein can be stripped from muscle mass to convert to glucose in times of extreme need. Likewise fatty acids can be converted to ketones by breaking down fat stored in adipose tissue and converting it into ketones in the cells of the liver.

Ketones: Do they deserve their bad reputation? When do they become a problem?

It may seem like ketones have a bad reputation since we've seen so many problems occur with DKA but ketones are actually used by the body everyday to provide energy to some primary body organs like the heart and can be used as an alternate energy source when glucose is lacking. They also help reserve the glucose supply for those organs that prefer it like the brain. They can be found at normal basal levels in blood and urine. When we talk about losing weight and burning fat, we are actually talking about using ketones. Dieters and people stranded in the wilderness rely on ketones to survive.

Ketones only become problematic when they replace glucose as the primary energy source. It's the excessive use of ketones which can cause the body's PH to lower and turn the blood acidic creating metabolic disorders such as diabetic ketoacidosis. When ketones have reached the level where they can be detected using urine test strips – that is the danger sign.

Who directs the body and tells it when to use which fuel?

Hormones in the body work like air traffic controllers signaling positive and negative instructions regarding its energy needs and fuel supplies. Insulin for example inhibits the production of ketone bodies by inhibiting the breakdown of fat (ljpolysis) in adipose tissue while in the liver it inhibits the conversion of free fatty acids into ketones. Glucagon, a pancreatic hormone stimulates the release of natural insulin which in turn inhibits ketone formation however in diabetics when there is either none or little supply of insulin to be stimulated, glucagon actually stimulates fat breakdown (lipolysis) in adipose tissue and enhances the conversion of fatty acids into ketones in the liver (ketogenesis) and can cause DKA. Stress hormones (catecholamines) such as epinephrine, norepinephrine, ACTH in addition to glucagon also stimulate ketone formation.

Why does DKA occur?

Diabetic Ketoacidosis occurs when glucose cannot reach the cellular level. The body tries to compensate by increasing the level of glucose in the blood. It does this by breaking down the glycogen reserve into glucose (glycogenolysis) and by creating new glucose from protein and glycerol (gluconeogensesis). The body will use whatever protein is available either from ingested food or it will strip muscle mass from the body. In a predator such as a cat the body will only strip so much muscle mass from its body since historically it knows that in order to eat, a cat must be able to walk and hunt thus promoting use of ketone formation more readily. Insulin deficiency promotes the acceleration of ketone production by stimulating fat breakdown (lipolysis). The body will try to answer the demand for fuel by breaking down more fat to convert to ketones to substitute for the lack of glucose. This causes a high level of ketones in the blood (hyperketonemia) and excessive polyuria causing dehydration and electrolyte loss and acidosis in the blood.

In an analogy I once used in an fdmb post, if the body cells were hungry guests at a party and were anxiously awaiting the pizza man (insulin) to deliver the pizza's (glucose) the host (liver) might start serving chinese food too (ketones) to placate the guests. The longer it takes the pizza man to deliver the pizzas the more chinese food gets used.

DKA prevention
To prevent DKA, all diabetic kitties should routinely be monitored for ketones in the urine using Ketostix. This will provide an early warning system so that if detected, intervention can be started before ketones progress to diabetic ketoacidosis.

Anorexia and/or insulin deficiency can lead to a lack of glucose at the cellular level which can lead to DKA. To prevent DKA a kitty must have a sufficient incoming glucose supply and must be given insulin in order to allow the glucose to enter the body cells. Anorexia is a typical sign of illness in a kitty and needs to be taken seriously with diabetic kitties because they need the glucose (even if they are currently at a high bg) to replenish their glycogen supplies. You also want your kitty to eat so you can give your kitty insulin. If a kitty refuses to eat or eats little but has a high bg and you hometest you can give a reduced dosage of insulin to move some of that glucose into the body cells and discourage ketone formation. If you don't hometest, it's more difficult to monitor the effect of a reduced insulin dosage and you have to weigh the odds of hypo risk versus ketone risk. The basic cause of the anorexia needs to be discovered. Most times DKA occurs when infection is present. This usually causes the kitty to be anorexia and the infection itself can cause bg levels to rise because of the body's greater demand for energy to fight the infection. A visit to the vet whenever anorexia lasts longer than a day is always a wise idea as well as increasing the frequency of ketone testing whenever a kitty is ill.

DKA Treatment
When a kitty is diagnosed with DKA the typical treatment involves a slow rehydration which will help flush out ketones and restore the pH level of the blood and replace electrolytes, and begin moving the body back to using glucose as its primary fuel. Usually a kitty is given fluids, electrolytes, glucose and small frequent amounts of regular insulin to facilitate glucose delivery to body cells. Antibiotics are usually given also since most times the cause is an underlying infection. When a kitty is back to eating and drinking with negative ketones they are on the road to recovery:)

Nothing in this world is really precious until we know that it will soon be gone. Life is short; love today.
My diabetics.....Patches(GA), Baby(GA), Hope(GA) , Mishka(GA), Vinnie(GA) and MC(GA)
FDMB member since 1998
 
Millie is on MC & HC food; she gets CORE Wellness chicken and when ketones are high I give her FF Gravy lovers.
The MC and HC is probably what has been keeping her from bottoming out, but it's still very important to find out how low the dose is dropping her.
I was actually trying to power through the dose increases, We increased twice in one week. She bounced and never came down. I was about to increase again but didn't get a chance. The high this time were confusing to me. because she didn't come down.
Yes, I saw that. However, it made me extremely nervous because the dose was increased a couple of times without knowing how low it was actually dropping her.

A few thoughts...
Her numbers appeared to be better on 2u and have gotten worse with each dose increase. It's one thing to increase the dose without knowing nadirs when a cat is actively throwing ketones. You *know* the cat isn't getting enough insulin and the dose must be increased. However, it's another thing to increase the dose out of panic just because one is seeing a ketone prone cat who is not actively throwing ketones in high numbers. In the latter case the cat may be experiencing high numbers after bouncing from a low. Under these circumstances, the high numbers are an expected reaction from dropping lower than the body is used to. This alone may not be a reason to increase the dose. If the caregiver monitors carefully to catch those possible lows... well then we can be pretty confident knowing if the dose should be increased or not.
I have been checking for ketones 2-3 times a day, sometimes the urine in her litter box is too dry so I don't record those. I will continue to monitor her going forward.
Awesome! Did the ketone strips come today? Using the ketone meter will be easier.
So far the diagnostics have not found anything. They will be doing the PLI for pancreatitis.
Well, I'm glad they're looking for a cause. Sometimes problems aren't apparent and one has to treat symptoms until something finally makes sense.
Is it possible that she's insulin resistant so tends to bounce. Then with the increases, she's bouncing even higher (into the 600 & 700s) and then remaining there which then causes the ketones to develop (which she is now primed to produce) without any underlying causes? Just wondering........ She appears fine much of the time then things go south very quickly.
Insulin resistance doesn't cause bouncing. Is she insulin resistant? Maybe. Time will tell. However, we have seen quite a few insulin resistant kitties on the board over the years. Being insulin resistant hasn't caused kitties to develop ketones.
Also, should we be considering a different insulin?
When a kitty is throwing ketones is one of the worst times to switch insulins. The only time I recall a switch actually helping a cat who was more ketone prone than Millie while throwing ketones was many years ago. At that time we had a very experienced and knowledgeable vet tech posting in this group everyday. She knew more about insulins than anyone I've ever met. She suggested the caregiver switch back to Vetsulin so the caregiver could administer insulin multiple times in each 24 hour period. The vet tech coached the caregiver 24/7. I don't know of anyone currently on the FDMB who has that level of experience. Without it, I wouldn't suggest attempting the same or similar method. It would be too dangerous without experienced supervision.

You may want to switch insulins sometime in the future, but if I were in your shoes I would wait until throwing ketones becomes a distant memory.
The vet called this evening. Millie is eating and looks better but she still has high ketone count even with the insulin they are giving her. Needless to say, she will be staying another day at the animal hospital.
Happy to hear she looks better and is eating! Those are good signs! I know you'd rather have her home, but with high ketones she's exactly where she needs to be. Hopefully, she'll be ready to come home soon. Do you know what kind of insulin they're giving her?

I was hoping you'd get some feedback from others today. Like Nat said, re-post your concerns tomorrow. It looks like there wasn't much activity on the entire board today. Maybe more members will be around tomorrow.

In addition to the info Nat posted, there's more here:
Ketones, Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA), and Blood Ketone Meters. You might want to take a look at it if you haven't already.

I'll check back sometime tomorrow. The next two weeks are crazy busy for me! All my children and grandchildren are arriving in a couple of days and will be here for an extended visit. We'll be staying at a lake near here for most of that time and celebrating Christmas in July! It's been such a long time since everyone was able to make the trip at the same time. We're really looking forward to the visit! :)


Hang in there! I know it's a difficult time when kitty's in the ER.
Sending positive thoughts and hugs...
:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Last edited:
I found Jill's post very informative, Sylvia. I was particularly struck by her comments about what the dose increases seem to have done. She makes a very good point about whether/when to change insulin. Is Millie getting R insulin as part of her treatment at the vet clinic?
 
I sorry your kitty is stuck at the vet, I am sure you must want her at home. :hugs: , getting her numbers regulated better will help with home testing daily, to see what works best for her. In her spread sheet I do suggest that you show all days even if you didn't test on those days, I know some people may give you a bit of a hard time, but it all with love and wanting to help. I was one of those that took a long time to get into regular testing daily. I started with the pre-shots, and occasional additional, looking back now, I wish I had done more tests at the beginning as it would have helped me out more to help my kitty. Keep asking questions here, lots of people with experience. Today has been quiet, so suggest that you re-post your concern and questions tomorrow if you still want more input. @Jill & Alex (GA) made some great suggestions, and has a lot of experience here.

Marvin and I will send positive thoughts to your Millie, and don't give up. :cat: . BTW Millie is absolutely beautiful looking cat, she is gorgeous
Thank you for the advice and inout.
Sylvia, I found this in one of the links in the stickies, under DKA, it's an extract of one of the conversations about DKA. You may want to check with the vet for exactly what they check and did for her. I am thinking underlying infection. There is other good info on DKA there too. Here's the link to the main DKA page http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...oacidosis-dka-and-blood-ketone-meters.135952/

I have a feeling Jill is probably one of the members with the most experience with this, and could guide you through. :)

----------------------
The Hows and Whys of Ketones

from Kathy and Cashew (GA)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Supplies of the Body

Before we discuss Diabetic Ketoacidosis let's review how ketones are used in the body. There are two basic forms of fuel the body uses to keep the body running at its most basic cellular level. The primary form of energy used is glucose. Glucose is obtained from digested foods (carbohydrates). Protein can also be converted to glucose in a process called gluconeogensis. Fat when digested is broken down into fatty acids and glycerol. Glycerol can also be converted to glucose. Fatty acids can used by the body or be converted to ketones. In addition to digested food, the body has reserves of fuel in the liver called glycogen, which can be converted to glucose when needed. There are also small stores of glycogen in muscle tissue. When necessary protein can be stripped from muscle mass to convert to glucose in times of extreme need. Likewise fatty acids can be converted to ketones by breaking down fat stored in adipose tissue and converting it into ketones in the cells of the liver.

Ketones: Do they deserve their bad reputation? When do they become a problem?

It may seem like ketones have a bad reputation since we've seen so many problems occur with DKA but ketones are actually used by the body everyday to provide energy to some primary body organs like the heart and can be used as an alternate energy source when glucose is lacking. They also help reserve the glucose supply for those organs that prefer it like the brain. They can be found at normal basal levels in blood and urine. When we talk about losing weight and burning fat, we are actually talking about using ketones. Dieters and people stranded in the wilderness rely on ketones to survive.

Ketones only become problematic when they replace glucose as the primary energy source. It's the excessive use of ketones which can cause the body's PH to lower and turn the blood acidic creating metabolic disorders such as diabetic ketoacidosis. When ketones have reached the level where they can be detected using urine test strips – that is the danger sign.

Who directs the body and tells it when to use which fuel?

Hormones in the body work like air traffic controllers signaling positive and negative instructions regarding its energy needs and fuel supplies. Insulin for example inhibits the production of ketone bodies by inhibiting the breakdown of fat (ljpolysis) in adipose tissue while in the liver it inhibits the conversion of free fatty acids into ketones. Glucagon, a pancreatic hormone stimulates the release of natural insulin which in turn inhibits ketone formation however in diabetics when there is either none or little supply of insulin to be stimulated, glucagon actually stimulates fat breakdown (lipolysis) in adipose tissue and enhances the conversion of fatty acids into ketones in the liver (ketogenesis) and can cause DKA. Stress hormones (catecholamines) such as epinephrine, norepinephrine, ACTH in addition to glucagon also stimulate ketone formation.

Why does DKA occur?

Diabetic Ketoacidosis occurs when glucose cannot reach the cellular level. The body tries to compensate by increasing the level of glucose in the blood. It does this by breaking down the glycogen reserve into glucose (glycogenolysis) and by creating new glucose from protein and glycerol (gluconeogensesis). The body will use whatever protein is available either from ingested food or it will strip muscle mass from the body. In a predator such as a cat the body will only strip so much muscle mass from its body since historically it knows that in order to eat, a cat must be able to walk and hunt thus promoting use of ketone formation more readily. Insulin deficiency promotes the acceleration of ketone production by stimulating fat breakdown (lipolysis). The body will try to answer the demand for fuel by breaking down more fat to convert to ketones to substitute for the lack of glucose. This causes a high level of ketones in the blood (hyperketonemia) and excessive polyuria causing dehydration and electrolyte loss and acidosis in the blood.

In an analogy I once used in an fdmb post, if the body cells were hungry guests at a party and were anxiously awaiting the pizza man (insulin) to deliver the pizza's (glucose) the host (liver) might start serving chinese food too (ketones) to placate the guests. The longer it takes the pizza man to deliver the pizzas the more chinese food gets used.

DKA prevention
To prevent DKA, all diabetic kitties should routinely be monitored for ketones in the urine using Ketostix. This will provide an early warning system so that if detected, intervention can be started before ketones progress to diabetic ketoacidosis.

Anorexia and/or insulin deficiency can lead to a lack of glucose at the cellular level which can lead to DKA. To prevent DKA a kitty must have a sufficient incoming glucose supply and must be given insulin in order to allow the glucose to enter the body cells. Anorexia is a typical sign of illness in a kitty and needs to be taken seriously with diabetic kitties because they need the glucose (even if they are currently at a high bg) to replenish their glycogen supplies. You also want your kitty to eat so you can give your kitty insulin. If a kitty refuses to eat or eats little but has a high bg and you hometest you can give a reduced dosage of insulin to move some of that glucose into the body cells and discourage ketone formation. If you don't hometest, it's more difficult to monitor the effect of a reduced insulin dosage and you have to weigh the odds of hypo risk versus ketone risk. The basic cause of the anorexia needs to be discovered. Most times DKA occurs when infection is present. This usually causes the kitty to be anorexia and the infection itself can cause bg levels to rise because of the body's greater demand for energy to fight the infection. A visit to the vet whenever anorexia lasts longer than a day is always a wise idea as well as increasing the frequency of ketone testing whenever a kitty is ill.

DKA Treatment
When a kitty is diagnosed with DKA the typical treatment involves a slow rehydration which will help flush out ketones and restore the pH level of the blood and replace electrolytes, and begin moving the body back to using glucose as its primary fuel. Usually a kitty is given fluids, electrolytes, glucose and small frequent amounts of regular insulin to facilitate glucose delivery to body cells. Antibiotics are usually given also since most times the cause is an underlying infection. When a kitty is back to eating and drinking with negative ketones they are on the road to recovery:)

Nothing in this world is really precious until we know that it will soon be gone. Life is short; love today.
My diabetics.....Patches(GA), Baby(GA), Hope(GA) , Mishka(GA), Vinnie(GA) and MC(GA)
FDMB member since 1998
I will read all of this later when my head is clear. Looks like very helpful information. Thanks again.
 
The MC and HC is probably what has been keeping her from bottoming out, but it's still very important to find out how low the dose is dropping her.

Yes, I saw that. However, it made me extremely nervous because the dose was increased a couple of times without knowing how low it was actually dropping her.

A few thoughts...
Her numbers appeared to be better on 2u and have gotten worse with each dose increase. It's one thing to increase the dose without knowing nadirs when a cat is actively throwing ketones. You *know* the cat isn't getting enough insulin and the dose must be increased. However, it's another thing to increase the dose out of panic just because one is seeing a ketone prone cat who is not actively throwing ketones in high numbers. In the latter case the cat may be experiencing high numbers after bouncing from a low. Under these circumstances, the high numbers are an expected reaction from dropping lower than the body is used to. This alone may not be a reason to increase the dose. If the caregiver monitors carefully to catch those possible lows... well then we can be pretty confident knowing if the dose should be increased or not.

Awesome! Did the ketone strips come today? Using the ketone meter will be easier.

Well, I'm glad they're looking for a cause. Sometimes problems aren't apparent and one has to treat symptoms until something finally makes sense.

Insulin resistance doesn't cause bouncing. Is she insulin resistant? Maybe. Time will tell. However, we have seen quite a few insulin resistant kitties on the board over the years. Being insulin resistant hasn't caused kitties to develop ketones.

When a kitty is throwing ketones is one of the worst times to switch insulins. The only time I recall a switch actually helping a cat who was more ketone prone than Millie while throwing ketones was many years ago. At that time we had a very experienced and knowledgeable vet tech posting in this group everyday. She knew more about insulins than anyone I've ever met. She suggested the caregiver switch back to Vetsulin so the caregiver could administer insulin multiple times in each 24 hour period. The vet tech coached the caregiver 24/7. I don't know of anyone currently on the FDMB who has that level of experience. Without it, I wouldn't suggest attempting the same or similar method. It would be too dangerous without experienced supervision.

You may want to switch insulins sometime in the future, but if I were in your shoes I would wait until throwing ketones becomes a distant memory.

Happy to hear she looks better and is eating! Those are good signs! I know you'd rather have her home, but with high ketones she's exactly where she needs to be. Hopefully, she'll be ready to come home soon. Do you know what kind of insulin they're giving her?

I was hoping you'd get some feedback from others today. Like Nat said, re-post your concerns tomorrow. It looks like there wasn't much activity on the entire board today. Maybe more members will be around tomorrow.

In addition to the info Nat posted, there's more here:
Ketones, Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA), and Blood Ketone Meters. You might want to take a look at it if you haven't already.

I'll check back sometime tomorrow. The next two weeks are crazy busy for me! All my children and grandchildren are arriving in a couple of days and will be here for an extended visit. We'll be staying at a lake near here for most of that time and celebrating Christmas in July! It's been such a long time since everyone was able to make the trip at the same time. We're really looking forward to the visit! :)


Hang in there! I know it's a difficult time when kitty's in the ER.
Sending positive thoughts and hugs...
:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
Hi Jill, Just read through your very informative posts. I will read again and again in hopes of absorbing and understanding.

The whole thing is confusing. Honestly, I felt like I was criticized for NOT increasing fast enough and then tried to do that. I agree her numbers got worse as I increased. The repeated advice of Millie needs insulin was understood by me to mean she needed more insulin. I will take the approach of 'starting over' from scratch. I will read and take notes.

I am waiting to hear from the vet this morning.

Thank you for taking out time from your busy schedule. Enjoy your vacation (and Christmas in July) with your family.
 
That's the difficult part of an open forum, Sylvia. You'll get a variety of advice and sometimes it conflicts. When you're in a crisis situation like you are/were that can create a lot of confusion. I think it's helpful then to have a calm, experienced voice as a "tie breaker", as Jill has been here.

Here's what I would suggest as far as BG monitoring for Millie: to get a good handle on her dose responses, how about trying a very structured testing routine for a while? It could be something like getting +2/+4/+6/+8 tests on one day, then +3/+5/+7/+9 tests the next. Then repeat +2/+4 etc. followed by +3/+5 etc. Overnight is harder of course but aim for one early evening and one bedtime test as much as possible.

I know this much testing will be challenging for you but it's the best way to "uncover" her dose responses and - maybe - get more info on why she's bouncing so much. As the picture builds you might be able to reduce the number of tests. As they say, desperate times call for desperate measures! :)
 
The whole thing is confusing. Honestly, I felt like I was criticized for NOT increasing fast enough and then tried to do that. I agree her numbers got worse as I increased. The repeated advice of Millie needs insulin was understood by me to mean she needed more insulin.
Hi Sylvia,

I know how you feel. I have only been here since April, There is so much information and so much different advice. All wanting the best for Marvin and I. I read everything, but didn't retain very much, I am guessing for me it was because I felt lost and was emotional. It took a while for me to catch on, and I was really not so good on regular testing. At first I did take repeated advice as criticism,which I shouldn't have as like cats, every human is different too :)

I was lucky that a couple of experienced members took interest in me and Marvin. What made the difference is I came to know the members I was comfortable with, and they have guided me through all this. Sometime daily (multiple times a day), some time just when I need it, and yes a couple time straight to the point, as I needed to hear what they were telling me. I wasn't testing enough, I know very much understand why, because his numbers are actually all over the place, which I would never have seen. The last two, three weeks the support I get has been daily, Wendy&Neko have been guiding me through my unique situation. I feel like we are a team, and I am learning a lot.

You may simply need one or two buddies, with experience to guide you through each day where possible until you get into the groove. Some days I am more independent, other days I definitely want Wendy's and the few other members with experience that I've gotten to know and who know what's up with my Marvin, suggestions. If you need to create a post just to look for a buddy to guide you through.

One day at a time for you and Millie...
 
Hi Sylvia,

I know how you feel. I have only been here since April, There is so much information and so much different advice. All wanting the best for Marvin and I. I read everything, but didn't retain very much, I am guessing for me it was because I felt lost and was emotional. It took a while for me to catch on, and I was really not so good on regular testing. At first I did take repeated advice as criticism,which I shouldn't have as like cats, every human is different too :)

I was lucky that a couple of experienced members took interest in me and Marvin. What made the difference is I came to know the members I was comfortable with, and they have guided me through all this. Sometime daily (multiple times a day), some time just when I need it, and yes a couple time straight to the point, as I needed to hear what they were telling me. I wasn't testing enough, I know very much understand why, because his numbers are actually all over the place, which I would never have seen. The last two, three weeks the support I get has been daily, Wendy&Neko have been guiding me through my unique situation. I feel like we are a team, and I am learning a lot.

You may simply need one or two buddies, with experience to guide you through each day where possible until you get into the groove. Some days I am more independent, other days I definitely want Wendy's and the few other members with experience that I've gotten to know and who know what's up with my Marvin, suggestions. If you need to create a post just to look for a buddy to guide you through.

One day at a time for you and Millie...
I shouldn't have used the word criticized; strongly advised is a better choice. My point was that I took the repeated advice to give Millie insulin as needing to increase it. And there were a couple of posts that said such. So I thought I was doing the right thing by increasing. Now I understand that that's not the issue, I need to test more and I've begun to do that and will continue to the best of my ability. I am not being resistant to testing at night, there's several factors involved that make it very difficult and they have to do with my health.

I do appreciate the very knowledgeable people on here. I also understand how things may sound when they are written, my own posts included.

Anyway, Millie's ketones finally went from very high to moderate. She needed potassium, which they gave. And she is eating well.

Thank you.
 
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I do appreciate the very knowledgeable people on here. I also understand how things may sound when they are written, my own posts included.

Anyway, Millie's ketones finally went from very high to moderate. She needed potassium, which they gave. And she is eating well.
I am so glad Millie is doing better. Don't be so hard on yourself, I was and am exactly the same and have felt the same way about all the feedback. You are doing fantastic and remember that :hugs:
 
I shouldn't have used the word criticized; strongly advised is a better choice. My point was that I took the repeated advice to give Millie insulin as needing to increase it. And there were a couple of posts that said such. So I thought I was doing the right thing by increasing. Now I understand that that's not the issue, I need to test more and I've begun to do that and will continue to the best of my ability. I am not being resistant to testing at night, there's several factors involved that make it very difficult and they have to do with my health.

I do appreciate the very knowledgeable people on here. I also understand how things may sound when they are written, my own posts included.

Anyway, Millie's ketones finally went from very high to moderate. She needed potassium, which they gave. And she is eating well.

Thank you.
Glad to hear Millie is eating better and that her ketones are slowly going down. Sending more healing vines.
 
My point was that I took the repeated advice to give Millie insulin as needing to increase it. And there were a couple of posts that said such. So I thought I was doing the right thing by increasing. Now I understand that that's not the issue, I need to test more and I've begun to do that and will continue to the best of my ability.
Good morning, Sylvia! I want to clarify my comments about dosing because I don't want you or anyone else to get the wrong idea:

  • When a kitty is actively throwing ketones, one has to increase the dose every 4 - 6 cycles (I'm talking with Lantus or Lev, not other insulins). It's a given because one of the ingredients fordeveloping ketones/ DKA is insufficient insulin. Some will also introduce the use of R if they can test more often than usual. It becomes a balancing act... getting enough insulin into the cat while not allowing the cat to bottom out and crash. Many will feed MC or HC to help keep kitty safe during this time. Frequent monitoring is required to keep kitty safe.
  • Seeing a ketone prone kitty (who is not actively throwing ketones) in high numbers is not in itself a reason to increase the dose. After all, kitty may be bouncing from a perceived low and will come back down on her/his own... a natural reaction and consequence. Frequent monitoring is the only way for a caregiver to know what's going on and respond accordingly.
The common denominator here is frequent monitoring, I know it sounds like we're harping on you and I suppose in a way we are. Please understand no one is criticizing... just trying to help.

Analyzing data provides the clues we're looking for in complicated situations and dealing with ketones is complicated because it falls under the category of "exceptions to the rule". You'll see and hear conflicting advice because none of us are vets and the knowledge and experience levels of our individual members varies greatly. Add to that while many are well versed in "the norm", few have a good solid grasp in identifying and treating the "exceptions"... despite well meaning intentions. Open, peer-reviewed message boards such as the FDMB have their pluses and minuses. It is what it is. Weigh what is said and make decisions as you see fit. Monitoring closely will help you put the pieces together.

Anyway, Millie's ketones finally went from very high to moderate. She needed potassium, which they gave. And she is eating well.
Good news! She's headed in the right direction! :)
 
Good morning, Sylvia! I want to clarify my comments about dosing because I don't want you or anyone else to get the wrong idea:
  • When a kitty is actively throwing ketones, one has to increase the dose every 4 - 6 cycles (I'm talking with Lantus or Lev, not other insulins). It's a given because one of the ingredients fordeveloping ketones/ DKA is insufficient insulin. Some will also introduce the use of R if they can test more often than usual. It becomes a balancing act... getting enough insulin into the cat while not allowing the cat to bottom out and crash. Many will feed MC or HC to help keep kitty safe during this time. Frequent monitoring is required to keep kitty safe.
  • Seeing a ketone prone kitty (who is not actively throwing ketones) in high numbers is not in itself a reason to increase the dose. After all, kitty may be bouncing from a perceived low and will come back down on her/his own... a natural reaction and consequence. Frequent monitoring is the only way for a caregiver to know what's going on and respond accordingly.
The common denominator here is frequent monitoring, I know it sounds like we're harping on you and I suppose in a way we are. Please understand no one is criticizing... just trying to help.

Analyzing data provides the clues we're looking for in complicated situations and dealing with ketones is complicated because it falls under the category of "exceptions to the rule". You'll see and hear conflicting advice because none of us are vets and the knowledge and experience levels of our individual members varies greatly. Add to that while many are well versed in "the norm", few have a good solid grasp in identifying and treating the "exceptions"... despite well meaning intentions. Open, peer-reviewed message boards such as the FDMB have their pluses and minuses. It is what it is. Weigh what is said and make decisions as you see fit. Monitoring closely will help you put the pieces together.


Good news! She's headed in the right direction! :)
Your explanations are very clear to me. I didn't feel I was currently being criticized, it was a poor choice off words. Over time I did feel I needed to increase more rapidly and that's what I was trying to do.

I know that ultimately everyone is here to help the kitties and I appreciate that.
 
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