New member with BG all over the place

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Iza

Iza

Member Since 2017
Hi everyone, I'm Poppy's mom, who's quite new to the FD.
Poppy is 11 y.o., diagnosed a month ago. She lost a lot of weight and now is just over 4 kg. She's been put initially on 1.5 u of Prozinc twice a day when she was still eating Sheeba Fine Flakes in jelly. I researched best foods for diabetic cats and bought her Bozita in cans. She was on it for 3 days eating fine and her sugars dropped quite low, so the vet put her on 0.5 u x 2 and then on just 1 dose of 0.5 u. Unfortunately, her tummy didn't like the sudden change and she had to go back onto Sheeba and then we put her on Purina DM pouches 3 x day, which the vet recommended. Her sugars started climbing up few days after the food swap and are still high, mainly in the 300-400's. She's back on the 0.5 u x 2 of Prozinc, and due to another curve on Monday, so the vet can decide of the dose needs to be increased.
I read about the Purina DM and saw that it has 0.5% corn starch in it, even though the carb content in dry matter is 5.65% (77% moisture, 13% protein, 5.5% fat, 2.4% crude ash, 0.8% fibre). The label states <0.5% sugar. I don't know whether it's the same recipe as the US Savoury Selects, it just says ProPlan Veterinary Diets DM St/Ox Diabetes Management.
I decided a few days ago to try the Bozita again, but much much slower, as she's already on low carb food. So in the last 3 days, she's been given 2 x 85 Purina Dm and 2x5g Bozita (I froze 5g portions and mix it with Purina). Eventually, I want to wean her off Purina completely, but was wondering of it's a good idea.
Here is her SS:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...XmuDMOygp6E9fZFh57NJdBYD8/edit#gid=1580293142
We home test with Alphatrack 2 (both glucometer and strips - just to be sure we're getting the right readings as she's not stable yet).
The gaps at the start of the SS is the missing data from the vet's curves, which I just requested and hopefully will be able to add soon.
Sorry for such a long post. Let me know if you have any thoughts on why her BG has been so high lately and if I'm doing the right thing by switching the diet.
 
Welcome Iza and Poppy! Great job home testing but I think your SS is still private so I'll have to look later when you see this :). The Purina ProPlan DM Savoury selects is about 9-10% carbs and the pate is about 6%, I think. I'd have to look them up again to be sure. Here is a link for UK food chart and we aim to feed foods less than 10% carbs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml
I think you are fine to switch off the more expensive DM diet, as the majority of members do. Good idea to do it slow since cold turkey upset her tummy. I had to transition my boy's food slowly too :cat:

Will check back in later to see if Spreadsheet is viewable to make comments :smuggrin:. I'm sure some others will reply before me though :p
 
I just took a pic of the food composition she's getting, as it might be different in the US. I did the calcs on the carbs and the % came at 5.65%, so it's different to Savoury and pate, unless my calcs are wrong (I've never been great at maths :)):
100-(77 moisture + 13 protein + 5.5 fat + 2.4 crude ash + 0.8 fibre) = 1.3
100 - 77 = 23
(1.3/23) * 100 = 5.65%
Is that right? Or should I have added the starch as well? o_O

Purina ProPlan Vet Diet DM.jpg
 
I see it now! You can just stick with one unit of measurement so you don't have to put both :) That is the right formula for calculating with Guaranteed Analysis. In U.S. we only have DM pate and Savoury. Either way, my comment still stands that you can switch to another low carb food listed in that food chart I linked for you :smuggrin:.
First thing, I wouldn't give insulin if BG is less than 11.1 mmol/L (200 mg/dL). Second, go ahead and figure out her new diet first before adjusting dose. Let's see how whichever food you decide to put her on first, effects her BG for a couple days. ;)
 
It looks like the DM pouches in the UK are the same carb level as the DM canned wet food (pate version) I buy here in Canada - 5.7%. I wouldn't worry about the corn starch. The Savoury Selects is about 10% carbs.

It's possible your girl is a very carb sensitive kitty and might do better on very low carb wet food. It's great that you're testing her BG at home and keeping a spreadsheet. Would you consider setting up a spreadsheet like the one we use here? We are very familiar with it and it would help us if you ask for advice.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
 
Thank you, Yong, I had a look at the food list and might need to experiment a bit more to find the one that works for her best. Thank God she's a little hoover, eats whatever is in front of her (which makes eating dinner sometimes difficult :). I'll tell my vet that she'll be getting bigger amounts of Bozita and we'll see her BG's then. It's so great to get reassurance from people more experienced, as me and my fiance Andy are still struggling.
 
Kris, I've set up one of the spreadsheets like the ones you use here, it's under a tab FD SS at the bottom. I hope you can see it. If not, let me know and I'll set a new one again. The other spreadsheets are for her glucose curves and are based on the Prozinc sheet we got from the vet.
Yes, it seems she is sensitive to carbs. The food is in gravy, so maybe it's the sauce that brings her BG's up? I just don't know until she's off it completely. At the moment she's getting 15 g of Bozita tinned a day and all is well with her tummy (fingers crossed :).
 
Iza said:
Kris, I've set up one of the spreadsheets like the ones you use here, it's under a tab FD SS at the bottom. I hope you can see it. If not, let me know and I'll set a new one again. The other spreadsheets are for her glucose curves and are based on the Prozinc sheet we got from the vet.
Yes, it seems she is sensitive to carbs. The food is in gravy, so maybe it's the sauce that brings her BG's up? I just don't know until she's off it completely. At the moment she's getting 15 g of Bozita tinned a day and all is well with her tummy (fingers crossed :).
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I see your SS now. If she's carb sensitive the gravy style wet food will send her BG soaring. Pates are fine.
 
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Right, that would explain the high BG's. Thank you Kris. The problem we have is that our vet, although a nice woman, does not know too much about Prozinc (Poppy is her first patient on this insulin) and food, as she said putting Pops on dry diabetic food would be fine :nailbiting:. Thankfully she's also careful with the dosing, so she'll probably agree with the 0.5 u X 2 while we change the diet.
 
Iza said:
Right, that would explain the high BG's. Thank you Kris. The problem we have is that our vet, although a nice woman, does not know too much about Prozinc (Poppy is her first patient on this insulin) and food, as she said putting Pops on dry diabetic food would be fine :nailbiting:. Thankfully she's also careful with the dosing, so she'll probably agree with the 0.5 u X 2 while we change the diet.
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Many vets have these issues. They know a lot about many different animals but aren't experts in any one thing. Not their fault. If they're willing to work with you on this, that's great. :)

The combined experience of all the people here who live FD 24/7 exceeds that of almost every vet except for the feline diabetes experts. Newcomers here often struggle with the conflicting advice they get here versus from their vet. It's a hurdle you have to get over. ;)
 
Iza said:
Thanks, Kris, it's good to have this forum. I hope Teasel is doing great :).
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He's doing quite well but he's a very challenging cat. He was diagnosed 18 months ago and we're only now starting to see some decent, more predictable numbers. As we keep repeating here: it's a marathon, not a sprint. :smuggrin:
 
I'll keep it in mind. I'm impatient in nature, so it will take some adjusting.:smuggrin:
 
Feel free to make a post on the Prozinc thread for Poppy too. :cat: @Blair & Freya is our UK prozinc member who also has to aim for the really low carb foods. Tagging people still might not work 100% right now, happens once in a while, but she might be able to help too. If you couldn't get a refund for DM Savoury selects, you could ask to exchange them for the pate. It's almost half the carbs :)
 
Hey there, sorry for my delayed response but life has been kind of garbage of late.

Anyway, as for foods, you can get a lot online. Try Zooplus, for one. I get Freya her Smilla brand food from there, and it's pretty cheap. They have Bozita too, which is higher carb than most of the Smilla varieties, but still within a range that's technically okay for diabetics (just not Freya). They also have more expensive stuff like Lily's Kitchen and whatever.

There's also the Happy Kitty Company, which has a low-carb section on their website, though I'd advise to use a carb calculator to double-check as I've found a few random ones on there that are too high. They have stuff like MAC's, Ropocat, Granatapet, and OmNomNom, among other things.

Freya is super sensitive to carbs, and so far, she's had luck with:
  • Smilla Tender Poultry with Poultry Hearts
  • Smilla Tender Poultry with Fish
  • Smilla Kitten Food with Chicken
  • MAC's Duck, Turkey & Chicken
  • MAC's Turkey & Blueberry
  • MAC's Poultry & Cranberry
  • MAC's Mono Sensitive Turkey
Those are all in her "food rotation" at the moment. In a bind, she can also eat the Whiskas 7+ pouches "in Jelly" (poultry and fish varieties), if she's out of food and I have to resort to the supermarket stuff. I believe the 7+ type is lower carb than the 1+, and make sure it's the jelly type rather than gravy or the other weird kinds that are too carb-y. This is still slightly higher in carbs than the other foods though, and I think works out to be more costly per gram. I'm on a real budget, so the types I'm feeding her are decent low-carb foods without breaking the bank.

I'm guessing you've probably used Zooplus for the Bozita food, but if you haven't tried the Happy Kitty Company, I'd really recommend them. Prompt delivery with notifications along the way, and they include a cute little toy mouse with each order. :cat: I think they have a trial option with free shipping or something, where you can pick four (?) cans of whichever types you want to try. Very handy not to have to buy multiple cans of the same thing just to try a new food.

Sorry if this was at all disjointed or crazy sounding; I've just had a bad time at the vet and am a little frazzled hahah. I hope you're doing well though and have some luck!
 
Blair & Freya said:
Hey there, sorry for my delayed response but life has been kind of garbage of late.

Anyway, as for foods, you can get a lot online. Try Zooplus, for one. I get Freya her Smilla brand food from there, and it's pretty cheap. They have Bozita too, which is higher carb than most of the Smilla varieties, but still within a range that's technically okay for diabetics (just not Freya). They also have more expensive stuff like Lily's Kitchen and whatever.

There's also the Happy Kitty Company, which has a low-carb section on their website, though I'd advise to use a carb calculator to double-check as I've found a few random ones on there that are too high. They have stuff like MAC's, Ropocat, Granatapet, and OmNomNom, among other things.

Freya is super sensitive to carbs, and so far, she's had luck with:
  • Smilla Tender Poultry with Poultry Hearts
  • Smilla Tender Poultry with Fish
  • Smilla Kitten Food with Chicken
  • MAC's Duck, Turkey & Chicken
  • MAC's Turkey & Blueberry
  • MAC's Poultry & Cranberry
  • MAC's Mono Sensitive Turkey
Those are all in her "food rotation" at the moment. In a bind, she can also eat the Whiskas 7+ pouches "in Jelly" (poultry and fish varieties), if she's out of food and I have to resort to the supermarket stuff. I believe the 7+ type is lower carb than the 1+, and make sure it's the jelly type rather than gravy or the other weird kinds that are too carb-y. This is still slightly higher in carbs than the other foods though, and I think works out to be more costly per gram. I'm on a real budget, so the types I'm feeding her are decent low-carb foods without breaking the bank.

I'm guessing you've probably used Zooplus for the Bozita food, but if you haven't tried the Happy Kitty Company, I'd really recommend them. Prompt delivery with notifications along the way, and they include a cute little toy mouse with each order. :cat: I think they have a trial option with free shipping or something, where you can pick four (?) cans of whichever types you want to try. Very handy not to have to buy multiple cans of the same thing just to try a new food.

Sorry if this was at all disjointed or crazy sounding; I've just had a bad time at the vet and am a little frazzled hahah. I hope you're doing well though and have some luck!
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Hi Blair,

Thanks for all the info, it's very useful. I just researched the Happykittycompany and looked at the Mac's that you mentioned. Looks really promising and I'll order it soon. Just spoke to my vet today, she thinks there's nothing wrong with the Purina DM pouches, as it is specifically formulated for diabetic cats. So she's checking the Prozinc insulin before increasing the dose. We're on a budget too, so I'm going to keep switching her, as the Purina is expensive and the starch in the Purina is something I don't trust. Besides I keep looking at her numbers and days after going on Purina, her BG went hyper. I might be stupid, but the diet seems to be the obvious reason.
I hope you and Freya are ok and there's nothing terrible happening.
Thank you again for your help.
 
Just a combination of a cat requiring higher and higher doses (needing an increase from 6.5u now) and an irritating vet -- no immediate emergency.

I forgot to mention that the MAC's Salmon & Chicken has also been good for her. She just gets fishy foods infrequently so I forgot about it until later, but it doesn't seem to budge her BG at all.

And yeah, the DM really is costly for what it is. ProZinc is expensive enough on its own, nevermind having to pay an arm and a leg for food on top of it! I don't blame you for wanting to explore other options, especially when there's so much more out there.
 
Blair & Freya said:
Just a combination of a cat requiring higher and higher doses (needing an increase from 6.5u now) and an irritating vet -- no immediate emergency.

I forgot to mention that the MAC's Salmon & Chicken has also been good for her. She just gets fishy foods infrequently so I forgot about it until later, but it doesn't seem to budge her BG at all.

And yeah, the DM really is costly for what it is. ProZinc is expensive enough on its own, nevermind having to pay an arm and a leg for food on top of it! I don't blame you for wanting to explore other options, especially when there's so much more out there.
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I hope it's just a glitch and Freya will come back to good levels soon. I wish some of those vet experts from US were around here, instead it feels like we educate ourselves and our vets at the same time, when it comes to FD :).
Thank you for the tip about the food, once Poppy is off Purina I will see her numbers and get the MAC'S to try.
 
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