6/10 Mouzer PMBG 91+14/110+15/153+16/250+18

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

PMBG 91+14/110+15/153+16/250+18

I havent been posting but Mouzer is going down in bg. I skipped pm shot. He ate 3oz of lc canned for his supper, after I decided no shot to be given. His bg is still going down, so far. Mouzer is in the GREEN and I had to make this post because I am excited. I am nervous, because I dont understand why he is dropping and no pm shot, but I am ready, if I need to feed lc or move on to mc or hc or karo - but I am thinking I shouldnt have to move on beyond low carb because I did not even give him his pm shot.
But who knows... I am sharing because I am tickled he hit green.

I chose to walk away from the board for a while. I figured, time heals all things and, in time, it will all work out and be better. You dont have to be here for me but I think you all love all of the kitties, so I thought maybe some of you would be happy for Mouzer right now, so I am sharing his good fortune, for his time, at this time.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I am glad Mouzer is seeing some blues and even that bit of green on this dose. Nice progress. Since you didn't shoot tonight Nd he is going back up, you should be OK with just low carb food tonight.

To put his name for the SS, first copy the URL or link to his spreadsheet, then go to the edit signature page. On that page type Mouzer's SS or something like that. Highlight the words "Mouzer's SS" then select the icon in the tool bar that looks like a chain link. A pop up should show up that allows you to paste in the SS URL or link. That should do it.

 

[Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)]

Lookin' good, Mouzer! It will be interesting to see if he continues this trend. I'm glad that you decided to return to the board. Glad for you and glad for Mouzer.
Have a good weekend.

 

[Kris & Teasel]

Lovely numbers!

 

[Sharon14]

Nice!!!

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

Goooooooo Mouzer!

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

I am glad Mouzer is seeing some blues and even that bit of green on this dose. Nice progress. Since you didn't shoot tonight Nd he is going back up, you should be OK with just low carb food tonight.

To put his name for the SS, first copy the URL or link to his spreadsheet, then go to the edit signature page. On that page type Mouzer's SS or something like that. Highlight the words "Mouzer's SS" then select the icon in the tool bar that looks like a chain link. A pop up should show up that allows you to paste in the SS URL or link. That should do it.

Thank you for telling me how to fix the link! I appreciate that. Now, I have learned another new thing haha And I really did not want to skip the shot but when I saw 107 and it was 30 minutes past, I told Mouzer, ok it is now or no. I wasnt sure what to do. I have kept up with reading the board because it really does help me. I have been spending time reading the TR protocol, to get ideas of what people do when numbers are lower and I know SLGS doesnt go with TR and not good to mix but I just needed to learn the information.

And I know we are not to compare our kitties with others but it does help me to see what people do when whatever thing takes place, so I do keep up with the threads that everyone creates, especially those where people are not sure what move to make next.

So, I saw someone said they have found reducing shot by 1/3 works. I thought about it. I googled and figured that 1/3 of the 1.25u would have been .91u, so I thought, close to 1.0u but a tad under. And I also thought, if Mouzer isnt like this other kitty, he could continue on down, if I gave the shot. So, I chose to skip to be safe. I hope he doesnt rise back to over 400 or even to 400, by amps. I will feel bad if he does but I was just too afraid to do that shot and take a chance.

But I did get excited when I saw the green, even though I know the variance really he could have still been in the blue but I get to call it green anyhow because it did turn green on the spreadsheet haha And that nice progress actually goes to those who said to raise his dose from the 1.0 to 1.25 and it took me a day to know I would be able to try to work out something about monitoring better. I am behind on all that I do but it all is just going to have to wait and get done as I am able. If I can get Mouzer regulated, maybe later it wont be so hard on me.

OK I will shut up. I was going to try to keep it short but ... my son has always said, "Mom, you dont write notes, you write novels!" So, I guess it is a part of my nature.

Lookin' good, Mouzer! It will be interesting to see if he continues this trend. I'm glad that you decided to return to the board. Glad for you and glad for Mouzer.
Have a good weekend.

I hope he continues but I hope I am able to understand if I should be reducing shot. I dont think now is a good time to call that though. We did just get somethin decent going. Even after I took off with the 1.25u bid, I was freaking out because he was reaching some higher 400's and he hit 495, which was higher than he was from the first ever reading - so I was like - wow man, what have I done? But he started leveling out over last night and today. We shall see what he does now. And thank you on being glad for me and Mouzer and the board, that is nice of you to say. And you have a great weekend too!!

Lovely numbers!

I figured you would think so haha I thought of you, when I saw the spreadsheet turn green heehee

Nice!!!

heehee

Goooooooo Mouzer!

Thank you Jill & Alex (GA) and I do want to thank you for pushing me, even though the push is very uncomfortable for me. And I know you probably dont realize it is a push, but it is. I am very scared and hesitant and also confused and insecure about this thing with Mouzer. But thank you and thank you for being excited for Mouzer!!

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

OK - 250 at +18 - And I knew it was going to go up, due to no shot. I just did not know when and from what I have been reading, I think this is what I am needing to learn - the when of going up, that way I can know whether to shoot or not. I think I remember reading that it would take two hours for the shot to begin its thing and I am needing to learn when Mouzer goes low, when he will rise again. If I am remembering correctly.

What I am not sure about is - just to use tonight as an example - if this turned out to be Mouzer's way of doing -
He did not rise until six hours after a shot would have been given, if I would have chosen not to skip the shot.
If a shot takes two hours to begin its thing --- maybe this is the time to ask if this is called onset? I still dont know what onset means.
What would I have done at six hours prior to his going up?
Would I have have lowered the dose for that shot?
Or given the full dose of that shot?
Or was to skip the shot and let him continue to rise for the night, what would be done?
I hate seeing him at 250 in the 18th hour after am shot, with knowing there is still six hours to go, before next shot. I hate seeing him rise into the pink and red.

I am going on to bed. If anybody responds to this, I will see it sometime tomorrow - probably in the afternoon because of church, unless I cant deal with going to church and lack of sleep haha then I will see it sooner.

 

[Kris & Teasel]

If a shot takes two hours to begin its thing --- maybe this is the time to ask if this is called onset? I still dont know what onset means.

Yes, this is onset.

What would I have done at six hours prior to his going up?

That yellow could be a natural rise from not getting insulin or it could be a reaction to the green - a bounce. Hard to know for sure.

What would I have done at six hours prior to his going up?
Would I have have lowered the dose for that shot?
Or given the full dose of that shot?

It's hard to predict all these things. You chose not to shoot because he was still dropping and was down to 107 which is an uncomfortable shoot number for you at this point. He continued to drop even without insulin. This behaviour can be associated with a bounce calming down ("clearing").

Folks with more experience might have given a reduced dose. How much to reduce is always a bit of a guessing game. You read on here that someone mentioned reducing by 1/3. I read that too. It could be something to try next time. A lot of this know how comes from trying things (carefully!) and accumulating lots of data. Then, you have a good reference "library" to look at in future.

Keep on keeping on, Cherryl!

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

Nice Mouser! The first green is always scary but, believe it or not, you'll get to the point where you only want to see greens.

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

Yes, this is onset.


That yellow could be a natural rise from not getting insulin or it could be a reaction to the green - a bounce. Hard to know for sure.


It's hard to predict all these things. You chose not to shoot because he was still dropping and was down to 107 which is an uncomfortable shoot number for you at this point. He continued to drop even without insulin. This behaviour can be associated with a bounce calming down ("clearing").

Folks with more experience might have given a reduced dose. How much to reduce is always a bit of a guessing game. You read on here that someone mentioned reducing by 1/3. I read that too. It could be something to try next time. A lot of this know how comes from trying things (carefully!) and accumulating lots of data. Then, you have a good reference "library" to look at in future.

Keep on keeping on, Cherryl!

Onset is to know how long it takes a shot to begin its work in Mouzer -- Let me know if I am still mixed up.
I wasnt thinking, but really, I guess it actually was a +4 after a shot would have been given, as far as seeing, what I think would be a safe number to let me know that Mouzer began rising --- and like you are saying, if it was natural rise or green rise - the +6 I had said, he had already risen to 250. So, for now, I am seeing that it took possibly four hours to rise, from the time a shot would have been given.

If we are allowed to give a lower dose - I wasnt even sure on that we are allowed to because of SLGS - but If I would have done the one third his 1.25 dose and eyeballed some under the 1.0u to try to get .91u, there is a chance Mouzer would have been ok - or if anything, I might would have had to feed some lc, for two hours, in between shot given and when Mouzer would have began rising ----
I am not prepared yet for this because this is just an observation from this one night and I need more data to let me know this is what would most likely take place -- I think --

I do have another question on that lowering the dose - Normally, we lower or raise in .25 increments. So, on a night like this, the .91u is lower than .25 from normal dose - if we can do that, could we do a .75 dose, instead of .91 - to be even safer, but still getting Mouzer a shot?

Because this mornings reading --- OMG!!
amps 538 - this is the highest he has been, that I know of, since 463 diagnosis.
at +3 he is 343
So, I need to learn what to do on nights like last night, so he gets a shot and not go so high.

Nice Mouser! The first green is always scary but, believe it or not, you'll get to the point where you only want to see greens.

If I can get smarter with this, green is what I want haha It is the ignorance of Mouzer's mom that is being the hold down on this thing.



I did not get to church. I woke to give Mouzer his test/feed/ shoot - took care of other animals, let others go, went back to bed, jumped up in time to run care for others, before it was too late, got back to tend to others lol and church has started, 15 minutes ago. There will be more church days haha And I am sure there will be more days like this and last nights like last night

 

[Gill & George]

Hi Cheryl,
nice to see you back, and nice to see that green on the ss

Looking at last nights cycle, and what you can learn from it, and how you might handle it given a similar situation.

He was dropping into pmps, looked like the bounce was breaking, so that's a heads up straight away that you are likely going to need to monitor and probably steer with food for the first few hours of the cycle if you do shoot.
So given that situation again, if you were able to monitor you could shoot, you would, grab a +1 and a +2, last night if you had shot (and for the purpose of this example let's just say that Mouzer onsets at +2) you might have seen the +1 still dropping inspite of him having eaten and onset not begining, what do you do??? Well you can use food to steer the curve in the direction you want it to go, with George if I had a drop at +1, and if I knew that I had shot a falling number, at that point I would have given him some MC or even HC, depending on how close to the wind we were sailing (George wasn't terribly carb sensitive, this is something I learnt, with some kitties who are very carb sensitive a little LC would do the trick).

Last night at +2, when the shot onsets, it looks like you were still having some action from the am shot. So you might expect the number to dip again, but if you have tested at +1 and given some higher carb food, the dip wouldn't necessairly be as much as you might think, it all depends on how much food you gave and whether it was enough to bump him up, if you overdid it you might even see him rise. This is where taking notes on the food you gave and when really helps, if you look at Georges ss you'll see that I took notes of all the snacks I fed/in terms of carb content and how much and when I fed, that really helped me figure out what worked for George.
Back to the cycle though, if that +2 was still falling, again you might give some more food, carb content depending on numbers, if hed dropped from 130 to say 60 at +2, I would, in George's case probably have give some HC(28%), because,
1)he's getting close to 50 the point below which you have to take action.
2)It's early in the cycle, and at this point we don't know how much overlap we are going to get (ie when the am shot is going to stop working) and we know that onset has started, and the insulin action from the pm shot is still rising.
3)Because it's early in the cycle and 60, though safe is pretty low, I would then test at +2.5, feeding more snacks if the numbers warrant it.

Food can really help you manage the numbers, I would suggest that next time you have a similar situation, if you can monitor, post up and hopefully, there will be someone about to walk you through it,m it's not something that you want to try without some help the first time, I still remember how nerve wracking it was. Hopefully when it does happen again, and it will there will be someone about to help. Remember if you need to catch our attention, editing the title to something eyecatching like Falling Preshot/ First time shooting low HELP!!! usually works a treat.

For further reading here are a couple of posts about shooting falling number and using food to manage the curve that I found super helpful when I started out, in fact they were complete eye openers.
Feeding the curve
Tight Regulation Protocol Myths debunked (post #6 shooting a dropping number)(I know you are doing SLGS, but the theory still applies)

I think your observation above that the rise started at about +4 is about right

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

Hi Cheryl,
nice to see you back, and nice to see that green on the ss

I shortened the quote on reply to you, just so you dont have to scroll way down. I am saving all of what you have said, so I have it on hand. Thank you for an in depth response. I dont mean to make you repeat yourself but am I to understand, that on the +12.5 107 reading, I would have still given the full dose of 1.25u? And then watched from there to know when to start using food, until he rises?

And if to give the full dose or whatever dose, would I first give that dose and then come holler first time shot on low? Or would I come holler, before giving the dose and while in that 30 minutes of monitoring, before making a decision? I dont want to come hollering at the wrong time and cry wolf or anything.

It would appear, when he gets below 130, is when I get unsure about what to do next, and my worry is going to make me stay up and monitor, even past a safe number, just to be safer. So, we now know, I will stay up if I have to haha


I am reading the links you gave...

Basically this says "you can try these things, they might work, but in most cats they don't work as well as consistent dosing." Our Dealing With Low Numbers sticky is basically saying the same thing - the idea is that you need to learn to shoot consistently, but if you are not ready to do that, then you can stall based on our guidelines. You will probably find that stalling doesn't work, but most people need to see for themselves that shooting on time works better than the alternatives.


One of the main things that *is* different in LL practice versus the written protocols is the concept of shaving doses instead of reducing by 0.25-0.50u. We try to reserve that practice for cats who have shown that full reductions don't hold for them because it is very aggressive.

I should have given some kind of shot. From this, I could have chosen to go to 0.75u, to be .50 from full dose, and that would have been ok. Am I understanding correctly?

 

[Gill & George]

I to understand, that on the +12.5 107 reading, I would have still given the full dose of 1.25u? And then watched from there to know when to start using food, until he rises?

That would have been an option. On SLGS you will eventually get to a stage where you will shoot anything over 90.

Another option would have been to give a reduced shot or BCS, but the first part of the cycle can often play out much the same anyway, because of the depot, so you would still need to monitor.
If you were having to leave, and because you don't yet have enough data a skip would be a safer option if you couldn't monitor.

And if to give the full dose or whatever dose, would I first give that dose and then come holler first time shot on low? Or would I come holler, before giving the dose and while in that 30 minutes of monitoring, before making a decision? I dont want to come hollering at the wrong time and cry wolf or anything.

The first few times you probably want to holler before shooting just to be sure there is someone that can hang with you and make sure it makes sense to shoot.

I started getting a +11 when George started giving me sporadic low PS, that way if the +11 was heading down or looking low, I could holler, and still shoot on time. I don't know if that would work for you but it's a way you can stay on schedule and still get some help.
Also if the +11 and PS are flat, you know that the cycle will be less exciting than if the PS is lower than the +11.

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

I started getting a +11 when George started giving me sporadic low PS, that way if the +11 was heading down or looking low, I could holler, and still shoot on time. I don't know if that would work for you but it's a way you can stay on schedule and still get some help.
Also if the +11 and PS are flat, you know that the cycle will be less exciting than if the PS is lower than the +11.

There have been times that I wanted to do a +10 and +11 but I made myself wait til 'time', because I thought this would be too early and the hour and two would or could make a big difference. Now! I know to do it and find out where Mouzer is at those times. I am not able to do them as regular as some other times but I have had times where it was possible and I didnt do them. As in being flat - what does that mean? Flat is another term I see said but havent yet figured out what it means.

In what you see on Mouzer's SS - I marked cy-1 and so on - for cycle - once I started with regular 1.25u - I had in mind to keep up with cycles and mid cycles - So, from cy-1, on the SS - to cy-8 - which was at last nights pmps - can you maybe explai n a bounce in there to me? The morning before last night, Mouzer had a high amps and then in the day, another high ambg - but then from there, he started going down and up a little but back down and then to the down that he went to. I am trying to learn to see a bounce - and bounce clearing - and if there is this in these cycles 1-8 - I would like to know how I know this.

Also, nadir - Can we see in this that Mouzer has a late nadir? More like closer to the +12 than in the +4-7? OR is this not enough data yet to see this forMouzer?

I am reading the feed curve thing...
Last night, with low pmps, instead of giving him his normal 3oz meal, once I decided no shot to be given, could I have given the normal dose, divided his 3oz meal into eight parts, and used it to feed, while low, until I saw a rise?

And I dont expect you to babysit me all day. Just whenever you get time, if you find it possible to have time, I will check here for answers. I am asking these questions because I am trying so hard to learn how to read the SS in a way that is good. I am saving answers, so I have them on hand and can re-read them, as I find time to sit here and read.
I am reading and re-reading so much, trying so hard to learn.

 

[Gill & George]

There have been times that I wanted to do a +10 and +11 but I made myself wait til 'time', because I thought this would be too early and the hour and two would or could make a big difference.

It can, you would still need to get the amps or pmps, but if it looks like you need help it gives you time to ask for it and someone respond.

It looks like,On June 7/cycle one, that drop into blue may have triggered a bounce, if it did then it looks like he started to clear that cycle 6 (june 9th), that blue in turn triggered another bounce, which he began to clear at the end of cycle 7 and into cycle 8 (note he's cleared it more quickly)

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

It can, you would still need to get the amps or pmps, but if it looks like you need help it gives you time to ask for it and someone respond.

It looks like,On June 7/cycle one, that drop into blue may have triggered a bounce, if it did then it looks like he started to clear that cycle 6 (june 9th), that blue in turn triggered another bounce, which he began to clear at the end of cycle 7 and into cycle 8 (note he's cleared it more quickly)

So, more than one bounce in just a few days. I have a lot to learn to understand this. I have bouncing cat because of not yet being regulated - and I am half asking but yet half stating, based on what I recently read. As kitty becomes regulated, the bounces decrease - I think that is what I saw said. Thank you answering and I am going to study the SS and learn from what you said and the dates mentioned.

 

[Gill & George]

and I am half asking but yet half stating, based on what I recently read. As kitty becomes regulated, the bounces decrease

As a cat regulates usually they stop bouncing.

If you look back at Georges ss, he bounced at first (he wasn't a big bouncer) but the way it evolved with him, remember ECID,
1) he saw his first greens
2) bounced
3) saw more greens, spent a little longer in green
4) bounced, cleared bounce a little quicker
5) spent even longer in greens
6) bounced a little less
7) then he just gave up on bouncing


I have seen i though where some kitties just bounce no matter what you do, and will just bounce all the way off the juice.
Time will tell with Mouzer.

 

[Cherryl & Mouzer]

As a cat regulates usually they stop bouncing.

If you look back at Georges ss, he bounced at first (he wasn't a big bouncer) but the way it evolved with him, remember ECID,
1) he saw his first greens
2) bounced
3) saw more greens, spent a little longer in green
4) bounced, cleared bounce a little quicker
5) spent even longer in greens
6) bounced a little less
7) then he just gave up on bouncing


I have seen i though where some kitties just bounce no matter what you do, and will just bounce all the way off the juice.
Time will tell with Mouzer.

Let us hope Mouzer will behave eventually haha
Thank you for everything today!