Mr. Big Eyes dosing, shall I increase

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Kathy and Mr. B.E.

Kathy and Mr. B.E.

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Hello,

It doesn't appear to me that 1 1/4 units has had much effect after a few days. Is it time to go to 1 1/2? I want to be sure I'm allowing time for him to adjust, but also anxious to see some improvement! I bought a digital scale yesterday to weigh myself easier and so I can weigh him (by subtracting my weight from our combined when I hold him.) If my new scale is correct and the one at the vet is correct he's lost over a pound since last month when they started him on insulin. He has a real hard time walking and only gets excited about eating, poor guy:(.

Thanks!

Kathy
 
Yes, he's had plenty of time at that dose. Time to increase. Just make sure it's a cycle you can monitor.

Are you feeding him several meals? It sounds like he could use some more food if he's willing to eat more.
 
Djamila said:
Yes, he's had plenty of time at that dose. Time to increase. Just make sure it's a cycle you can monitor.

Are you feeding him several meals? It sounds like he could use some more food if he's willing to eat more.
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Thanks. I wouldn't be able to check the nadir until Sunday, but can get the PM +3 or +4 in addition to the PS tests. Would that be enough?
I try to feed him several times when I'm home; otherwise a little when I get home from work that he can eat and still have 2 hours without food before the PMPS test, then I give him some before bed. I've had YA Zero carb out since the weekend and I think he took a couple bites today, so hopefully he'll decide to eat some of that during the day or at night.
 
Hmm....we don't really have enough data to know when his nadir is for sure, but if you can monitor until +4, that should give you enough information to see if he's heading too low. His numbers look like they're still high enough that a small increase should stay safe anyway.

If he prefers his wet food, I just leave out canned food for my kitties, and leave them a little extra if I'm afraid Sam might go lower during a cycle. It's fine to leave it out (unless he'll just scarf it all down).
 
Djamila said:
Hmm....we don't really have enough data to know when his nadir is for sure, but if you can monitor until +4, that should give you enough information to see if he's heading too low. His numbers look like they're still high enough that a small increase should stay safe anyway.

If he prefers his wet food, I just leave out canned food for my kitties, and leave them a little extra if I'm afraid Sam might go lower during a cycle. It's fine to leave it out (unless he'll just scarf it all down).
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You don't freeze food? Just leave it out? I've been afraid it might go bad before he would eat it.
 
Mine lost a whole lot of weight too. She's been eating a bunch more calories than a cat her size "should", and she's filling out again. I got the PetSafe 5 automatic feeder that was recommended by people here, and I stick the wet food in either with an ice cube or as a partially frozen meatsicle, and it's definitely still fresh and cool several hours later.
 
I live in a relatively chilly climate (Seattle), so I only freeze the canned food during the warmer months. I do leave out lumps of frozen raw, but honestly those are usually thawed in an hour, so the freezing doesn't extend it that long. I know there are warnings about it, but I've done it for years and it's been fine. On Dr. Lisa's website, she says she leaves out canned or frozen raw for up to 12 hours with no problem.
 
I've left canned food out for 12 hours here in Alabama with no problems. I think my cats usually eat it all up by mid-day or so, but I don't think it should be an issue to leave it out.
 
Djamila said:
I live in a relatively chilly climate (Seattle), so I only freeze the canned food during the warmer months. I do leave out lumps of frozen raw, but honestly those are usually thawed in an hour, so the freezing doesn't extend it that long. I know there are warnings about it, but I've done it for years and it's been fine. On Dr. Lisa's website, she says she leaves out canned or frozen raw for up to 12 hours with no problem.
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Thanks. I'm giving him a bigger bedtime snack tonight and will leave it overnight to see if he eats it all by morning.
 
Headed in the right direction! :cool: If he needs to gain some weight, definitely give him some extra LC wet food. Did you calculate how many calories he should be eating to get to his desired weight? If not, just tell me the weight you'd prefer to see him back to or one suggested by the Vet. :cat: Also, for my calories I did not add the YAZ and just allow that for a little extra if he doesn't eat all of his wet food ;)
 
Yong said:
Headed in the right direction! :cool: If he needs to gain some weight, definitely give him some extra LC wet food. Did you calculate how many calories he should be eating to get to his desired weight? If not, just tell me the weight you'd prefer to see him back to or one suggested by the Vet. :cat: Also, for my calories I did not add the YAZ and just allow that for a little extra if he doesn't eat all of his wet food ;)
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Thanks for all your help! I haven't calculated calories...been busy so far adjusting my schedule to testing and insulin and trying to do my spring yard work.:arghh: It would be great if you could tell me calories for him to weigh 14. I'm feeding him Hi Tor Neo which is 205 kcal/can and Dr. F & S adult chicken which is 219 kcal/can. Thanks!
 
Kathy and Mr. B.E. said:
Thanks for all your help! I haven't calculated calories...been busy so far adjusting my schedule to testing and insulin and trying to do my spring yard work.:arghh: It would be great if you could tell me calories for him to weigh 14. I'm feeding him Hi Tor Neo which is 205 kcal/can and Dr. F & S adult chicken which is 219 kcal/can. Thanks!
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Just found another formula that may be better suited once Mr. Big Eyes reaches his goal weight. So when that happens, this one suggests 208.8 calories per day to maintain. Seems like a big difference for a kitty so the average of both caloric intakes for Mr. Big Eyes would be 234.4 / day. Then just divide by how many meals he gets per day. :)
 
Yong said:
Just found another formula that may be better suited once Mr. Big Eyes reaches his goal weight. So when that happens, this one suggests 208.8 calories per day to maintain. Seems like a big difference for a kitty so the average of both caloric intakes for Mr. Big Eyes would be 234.4 / day. Then just divide by how many meals he gets per day. :)
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Thanks! He's already gained back part of a pound, so I'll need to make sure to get him on maintenance when he seems a good weight. I don't want him to weight 20 pounds again!
 
Yong said:
Yeah I was thinking the same since Maury is about 13 lbs now. I don't want him to get back up to 18 lbs again :p
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Yes, for sure!

I think Mr. Big Eyes may get back to walking better, but sure wouldn't at 20#. Last night and this morning it looked like he was walking better with his front legs and was up a little bit up on the back legs--not dragging on hocks completely as he has been.:joyful: I got Zobaline and gave it to him for a week or so after he was first diagnosed, but read it probably wouldn't help until the cat is controlled, so I quit giving it to him since it's pretty expensive. Maybe it's time to go back to the Zobaline again.
 
I'm wondering if I should increase the insulin again by .25U. The reason I hesitate is that each time I've increased so far I see improvement at first, then he seems to go back up again to numbers more like the beginning. Could he actually be going lower at times I haven't tested and then bouncing up? If I understand correctly a cat's body will eventually be unable to continue putting the glucose back up and then it could end up dangerously low with increased insulin. Thanks for any advice.:)
 
Kathy and Mr. B.E. said:
each time I've increased so far I see improvement at first, then he seems to go back up again to numbers more like the beginning.
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This is a pattern that some cats have (mine is one). They respond initially to a dose change then become "dose complacent". Another little bump up in dose can shift them into responding again. Usually they become more consistently responsive when you get close to their good dose. Yes, I think you can try an increase of 0.25 u.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
This is a pattern that some cats have (mine is one). They respond initially to a dose change then become "dose complacent". Another little bump up in dose can shift them into responding again. Usually they become more consistently responsive when you get close to their good dose. Yes, I think you can try an increase of 0.25 u.
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Thanks! I just gave him the PM dose tonight at 1.75U, but will increase to 2U tomorrow. It will be a good time since I'll be home all day.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
This is a pattern that some cats have (mine is one). They respond initially to a dose change then become "dose complacent". Another little bump up in dose can shift them into responding again. Usually they become more consistently responsive when you get close to their good dose. Yes, I think you can try an increase of 0.25 u.
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Is there any pattern for higher BG with increased insulin? I've given the new dose for 3 days now and seen the highest BG yet:(. Should I go up to 2.25U tomorrow? Thanks!
 
Kathy and Mr. B.E. said:
Is there any pattern for higher BG with increased insulin? I've given the new dose for 3 days now and seen the highest BG yet:(. Should I go up to 2.25U tomorrow? Thanks!
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Yes, it can happen because of bouncing. It's possible he's gone lower overnight and it shows as bounce-elevated numbers in the daytime. Much of the time these things have to be figured out by trial and error. You could try an increase to 2.25 u for the next 3 cycles. If it's ineffective there's no need to stay at that dose longer than three cycles.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Yes, it can happen because of bouncing. It's possible he's gone lower overnight and it shows as bounce-elevated numbers in the daytime. Much of the time these things have to be figured out by trial and error. You could try an increase to 2.25 u for the next 3 cycles. If it's ineffective there's no need to stay at that dose longer than three cycles.
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I thought of that, but I did get some daytime +6 BG readings that seemed right to me--around 100 lower than AMPS which is what I'd seen before those days I was able to do more mid-cycle testing.
 
Unfortunately, I've seen this on quite a few spreadsheets, but still haven't quite figured out how to explain it. It's just one of those cat things, I guess. Yes, keep raising. At some point you break through and it gets better. Not much help, I'm afraid.
 
Kathy and Mr. B.E. said:
I haven't noticed him acting any different. I've used the same glucometer, same insulin, etc.
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I just had a thought...I'm pretty sure he's eaten any wet food I leave out overnight more than 2 hours before AMPS test, but I've been leaving the YAZero all the time and I just noticed him eating some before the PMPS test tonight. Could that affect the BG? Or since it's "zero" is it OK for him to eat within 2 hours of test? Thanks!
 
Any food can affect the BG number. If he just ate a couple minutes before the test, you're probably fine, though.
 
Rachel said:
Any food can affect the BG number. If he just ate a couple minutes before the test, you're probably fine, though.
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Thanks! I will start taking it away 2 hours before tests. I don't know whether he'd eaten more than just what I observed right before the test tonight or at other times, either. He does seem to have developed a liking for it and I notice more is missing from the bowl than when I first started putting it out at least a couple weeks ago. That could explain some of the up and down BG numbers.
 
Taking YAZ away 2 hours prior to PS test will let you know if it was impacting his BG. Some kitties are not effected by it, like JanetNJ's. For my boy, I just know it doesn't cause spikes like Purina DM did :cat:
 
BG continued to remain high at 2.25U, so I gave 2.5U this morning. I had hoped to see a good number at AMPS +6, but I didn't and the number at AMPS +9 was about the same. Should I be concerned that there might have been a bounce? Or just glucometer margin of error? Should I continue at 2.5U? I won't be home tomorrow to monitor any mid-cycle numbers. Thanks:) as always.
 
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