? 5/8/17Sprocket, AMPS/220.+2.25/231.+5.75/207,+8.2/220.PMPS/279, +2.75/292.+5 2/304.See notes

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Darnell & Sprocket (GA)

Member Since 2015
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...9-2-2-77-3-25-85-5-2-131.177547/#post-1958199

Discussion continues today on the food. Please read through comments from last night and today before giving your opinion. Thanks.

Today. 3am he went to 221.
He ate about 2oz of 3carb mostly at 3am some food about 430am as he tried to eat some of her left over.

6am he was 220 amps
Ate 2oz of 4carb
Left 1oz of 3carb from 3am feeding that she left.

He is licking between legs alot i hope he is ok.
He peed n pooped at 5:45am and it appeared ketone negative through the litter stick and poop was some soupy.
Gave probiotics at amps meal.
Usually do pribiotics at amps and pmps meals.
It could he from the gravy food last night.
 
It could he from the gravy food last night
When I had to feed gravy to George, we would get soupy poo the next day, with George it didn't last long. He'd get back to normal within 24hrs.
I know that some other folk find that their kitties are quite sensitive to the gravy foods, so instead of using gravy they would simply add honey to their regular food, to boost the carb content and avoid the tummy sensitivity issues.

Hope Sprocket gets back to normal soon. Great that there are no ketones.

I know that you found last night scary, but really those were great normal numbers (bear in mind the normal range for a cat is 50-80 when using a human meter), he was a long way off from being in the danger zone.
Personally when I have been in similar situation with similar numbers, and if I was around to monitor, I would probably have tried to avoid using the higher carb when you did, I'm not criticizing, just an observation for your consideration. With time and experience you will learn to get accustomed to seeing and dealing with those green numbers, they are damn scary when we are not used to seeing them, the first few times George hit green, heck even a low blue, I was shaking like a leaf, keep at the back of your mind that those greens are the ultimate goal if you want to try and achieve regulation for Sprocket. I think that it's possibility that Sprocket shot up to blue and then Yellow because of all the carbs/food early on in the cycle, there may also be a little bit of bounce in there too. The goal is to get him to drop and surf in those greens and low blues, sometimes it needs a gentler touch, if when he gets there, you wallup him with HC he's not likely to stay there for long, that's why we don't normally suggest using HC to steer when they are above 50.
It's a difficult one to get your head round, had you used LC say the 7%, he wouldn't have necessarily, dived on you, but he might have cruised along in the blue greens for longer in the cycle, as I've already said, that's the goal for regulation, the more time he spends in that range the less diving and bouncing he will do, and the easier (on our nerves) it becomes to manage.

As for why the cycle panned out as it did, who knows, certainly, he gave you the heads up with that falling PS, the numbers were heading down, so you did exactly the right thing by getting the +1, I thought the choice of 7% at that point was a good one, as he was remaining level at that +2.2 I might have stuck with just the 7% rather than the 13%, (which by the way is MC) (and as you mixed it with equal amounts of 7% that made that snack overall 10%)(HC is over 15%), by +3.5, as you are moving along in the cycle you dropped back to 7% that was a better choice (remember that as you move along in the cycle the lighter the touch with the steering, so you could have gone with lower carb)
You might feel that if you made the lower carb choices above that he may have dropped like a stone, I don't have a crystal ball, but what has been my experience when I experimented with steering with George, and of course ECID, is that when I hit him with too many carbs or too much food overall, it would tend to shorten the time he spent in the lower range and cause him to shoot up earlier, overtime I learnt to have a lighter hand, and I think that helped him get regulated by getting him to spend more time in the blue/greens, and eventually getting the yellows to disappear altogether. If you look at his ss, I made notes of what I fed and when, and there are also links to the condo of the day, so you can see what my thought process was on a given day.
My intention with what I have written above is to do, what I used to do after I had a scary/unusual cycle, after the dust had settled and the nerves/anxiety had passed, I would look back at the cycle, and say to myself (I would also ask in George's Condo), what could I have done different, what worked, what didn't, what could I try next time to achieve the outcome I wanted. Anyways I hope you take it in the spirit it is intended.
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Omg. Just got home at 1230pm. He didnt want to get up and did not eat when bf put his food down. then I tested and he was 207 at +5.75.
Jeez i will need a sitter for my cat to makr sure he eats if he keeps not eating when i leave the house.
 
I'm not sure exactly what your question is for today. You have the ? icon on the title, but I don't see a specific question.

As for food, just keep track of the amount and %carb and when you feed it, and you'll learn what works for Sprocket as you see patterns over time. If he's feeling a little off today, it could be the gravy as Gill mentioned. Neko didn't react well to wheat based gravy. But there are some high carb foods out there where the carbs come from rice or potato. Neko started out with Merrick Cowboy Cookout (carbs from potato) as her HC, then I switched to the ones in the Weruva line when I needed to go with lower phosphorus HC.

I also agree with Gill that next time try a lighter hand on carbs when you see those lower numbers. You want his body to spend more time in good healing numbers so he learns not to bounce as much. As a rule of thumb, start out with a couple tsp of low carb when you see him first hit the greens. That can help them surf there. Higher carb early on can also shorten the duration of the insulin.
 
I'm not sure exactly what your question is for today. You have the ? icon on the title, but I don't see a specific question.

As for food, just keep track of the amount and %carb and when you feed it, and you'll learn what works for Sprocket as you see patterns over time. If he's feeling a little off today, it could be the gravy as Gill mentioned. Neko didn't react well to wheat based gravy. But there are some high carb foods out there where the carbs come from rice or potato. Neko started out with Merrick Cowboy Cookout (carbs from potato) as her HC, then I switched to the ones in the Weruva line when I needed to go with lower phosphorus HC.

I also agree with Gill that next time try a lighter hand on carbs when you see those lower numbers. You want his body to spend more time in good healing numbers so he learns not to bounce as much. As a rule of thumb, start out with a couple tsp of low carb when you see him first hit the greens. That can help them surf there. Higher carb early on can also shorten the duration of the insulin.

Its same question as yesterday. Basically wanted to continue discussion but I had to leave early after little sleep so I didnt have time to copy n paste it.

I wrote on the ss all the food and carb I gave.
I didnt give him a high carb gravy. I gave a 13 carb gravy from friskies shredded. So it was a medium carb.
I gave a 7 carb 2times.

I will copy n paste here now. Hang on.
 
Here was discussion about food from yesterday..

????
From Holly & Fudge.( also my questions)

How does the lantus drop ? Doesn't this just keep the numbers up ? Does it make sense moving forward at the increase of 4 units that there is more time in between the feedings so the Lantus can drop the bg and let it do its work. Or no... this doesn't matter at all that he has 10 feedings a day ?
Does it make more sense to put down 4 ounces at 6 am and his next feeding would be at 12 pm to allow the Lantus to drop and work. Or to feed him throughout the 6 hours to 12 pm ?

I just question amount of feedings..

I agree an increase is needed but doesn't amount of food, carbs in total for the day, frequency of feeding, calories count too. Shouldn't we be focusing on reducing the amount of feedings to 8 feedings or 6 ? Or no .. just feed all day and continue to increase.

And
????
When i switched to 3.75u. I also started feeding a 4 carb at every amps and pmps meal for days. Doesnt that count??
He stayed up and was kinda flat. But today I did 3carb at amps then did ocarb and 1 carb rest and look where we are now?
I dont think that is just a coincedence.
Thats what i am talking about.

These are same questions as yesterday.
I am concerned about increasing without figuring out a carb plan of food.
It appears to make a difference to him.
I gave less carb %food in beginning of day and he dropped by pmps. I go back to other carbs above and he is back to yellows and flat.
Carbs seem to be having an influence on him but some people either dont agree or dont see it. I am trying to explain it best I can but I am not good at explaining it.
I have been putting it in his spreadsheet with carb counts, amount of food, and times.
Obviously I need to figure out a plan to go forward. I dont want to play the dance of feeding enough to keep him up. He doesnt like that either. I got less than 4 hours of sleep last night before my burial event this morning.

Oh and from above. I didnt give a HC food it was a 13. So it was a MC food.

So if people see this and I am not just crazy...I would rather have more options of food with being able to add 4-7carb counts as he is already getting bored with same food for months now.
I am lucky they ate the same food this long.
So please look at ss and see what I mean???


Thanks.
 
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When Bubba was on insulin, I kept his food the same each day, amount of calories and carbs. I only deviated from the carbs IF he was dropping and I needed to steer him and then I would use MC or HC depending on the number and at what point in the cycle that he dropped. By keeping a good journal of his food intake and what you give to him to steer him will be great information for you for future cycles to know what worked the best.

When you are steering when he has dropped below 50, your goal is to get them about 20 points higher and usually a tsp of gravy will do that. Continue testing to determine if he is still dropping, you'd give more. If his number bumped up 20 points and stay you could go back to lower carb food to keep him surfing. It's a real trial and error for what works for Sprocket.

I believe some one yesterday said that there are so many factors each day, each cycle, like how full is the depot, absorption, accuracy of the dose size ( unless using calipers there can be discrepancies) that is going to be difficult to compare each cycle in reference to the food carb count. If it were me, I would give the same calories each day according to his needs. Is he the correct weight? Did he lose a lot of weight and need to regain some, then give him more calories to help that process but on a day to day basis, it isn't necessary to change up his LC count because you have increased the insulin dose. The only time you would change the carb count would be while you need to steer low numbers.

As far as food choices you can check out Dr. Lisa's new food guide and find other foods of the same carb % and try them for some variety.


I looked over his SS from yesterday and last night's cycle was great! Those greens were nice and safe and no where near scary numbers. The goal is to get Sprocket used to being in those numbers so his pancreas can heal. I hope I answered you concerns.
 
Discussion continues today on the food.
Hi Darnell,

I read thru the condos and the food recording in the SS, and I agree with the earlier posters who said that AMOUNT of food should be looked at too. Then maybe you can assess better the carbs influence on Sprocket.

Am I mistaken in thinking that he was on 300 to 400 Kcal a day in the early stage of his recovery from DKA? Do you still feed that much?

Post DKA kitties like Sproket and Ducia need extra calories, more than "average" kitties do. From Dr. Pierson blog:.."Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range." - LINK to that wonderful blog's portion on How Much Should I Feed? - good read.

ECID but the "average" indoor only cat needs about 180 Kcal a day. As not "average" Sprocket will need more than that but if he eats 300 - 400 than it might be too much. He is currently at about 15lb, correct?Do you need him to lose, to maintain or to gain?

I would post new thread/question on the Main Forum - a lot of traffic there - and talk about how much calories to feed post DKA cat of his frame/age.

Hope it helps.
 
When Bubba was on insulin, I kept his food the same each day, amount of calories and carbs. I only deviated from the carbs IF he was dropping and I needed to steer him and then I would use MC or HC depending on the number and at what point in the cycle that he dropped. By keeping a good journal of his food intake and what you give to him to steer him will be great information for you for future cycles to know what worked the best.

When you are steering when he has dropped below 50, your goal is to get them about 20 points higher and usually a tsp of gravy will do that. Continue testing to determine if he is still dropping, you'd give more. If his number bumped up 20 points and stay you could go back to lower carb food to keep him surfing. It's a real trial and error for what works for Sprocket.

I believe some one yesterday said that there are so many factors each day, each cycle, like how full is the depot, absorption, accuracy of the dose size ( unless using calipers there can be discrepancies) that is going to be difficult to compare each cycle in reference to the food carb count. If it were me, I would give the same calories each day according to his needs. Is he the correct weight? Did he lose a lot of weight and need to regain some, then give him more calories to help that process but on a day to day basis, it isn't necessary to change up his LC count because you have increased the insulin dose. The only time you would change the carb count would be while you need to steer low numbers.

As far as food choices you can check out Dr. Lisa's new food guide and find other foods of the same carb % and try them for some variety.


I looked over his SS from yesterday and last night's cycle was great! Those greens were nice and safe and no where near scary numbers. The goal is to get Sprocket used to being in those numbers so his pancreas can heal. I hope I answered you concerns.

I do keep a food journal. I been posting on his ss the basics but i have all he eats in a notebook along with a list of bgs and meds.

His weight. I was told by a chart he should be 12 lbs but i dont trust a chart. He was 14.25 when he got sick in begin of march. Last vet in mid april he was 13.10 on their scale. With my home scale I had 14.6lbs last week and week before.
So I am happy with him between14-15lbs as ya never know when he will need that weight. He was 18lbs a few years ago before he was diagnosed.

I also have printed out Dr.Lisas food list. I feed fancy feast pates but also some proplan pate and urinary formula pate.
I tried to get Tikicat but cant find locally now. Not surr why.

So for now. The two kinds give some variety.
 
10 feedings a day is a lot. I fed 7 feedings, which was still a lot, but Neko got 5 feedings a day before diabetes. I fed at preshot, and when on Lantus, tried to have some fresh carbs on board just before her onset or when she did big drops to try to slow down those drops and flatten her out. For Neko that mean feeding again around +2 and +3, when she was on Lantus. She might get some more food just before nadir if I needed to steer her numbers. You don't want to feed many carbs in the last part of the cycle when the insulin is waning. She got a zero or very low carb snack around +9, or she would chew my leg off. :p I kept similar feedings when we moved to Levemir, because Neko was resistent to food changes.
 
He wa
Hi Darnell,

I read thru the condos and the food recording in the SS, and I agree with the earlier posters who said that AMOUNT of food should be looked at too. Then maybe you can assess better the carbs influence on Sprocket.

Am I mistaken in thinking that he was on 300 to 400 Kcal a day in the early stage of his recovery from DKA? Do you still feed that much?

Post DKA kitties like Sproket and Ducia need extra calories, more than "average" kitties do. From Dr. Pierson blog:.."Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range." - LINK to that wonderful blog's portion on How Much Should I Feed? - good read.

ECID but the "average" indoor only cat needs about 180 Kcal a day. As not "average" Sprocket will need more than that but if he eats 300 - 400 than it might be too much. He is currently at about 15lb, correct?Do you need him to lose, to maintain or to gain?

I would post new thread/question on the Main Forum - a lot of traffic there - and talk about how much calories to feed post DKA cat of his frame/age.

Hope it helps.


He was eating about 400-500 calories.
Now he is eating about 12-15oz each 24 hour day.
Currently i am feeding at
Amps/pmps....6oclock hour.
Then at +2 hour....around 9oclock hour
Then at 1130-12 hour (usually before my bed or i go to appts)
Then again at 230- 3oclock hour.
So thats 8 times in 24 hrs.
Unless he needs to be fed more for the bg.

I used to feed at 10, 2, 6. So 6 times a day.
I hope I can get back to that once he is regulated.

So is this ok?
 
The food amount if hard to gauge in diabetic cats. In unregulated cats, they might be eating 400+ calories a day and still lose weight because most the extra calories (sugar) is lost in the urine. As a cat gets better regulated, they need less calories and if you continue to feed the same amounts you might see weight gain. The easiest way to figure out how much food to feed is weights. Calorie intake can really depend on the activity level and other factors specific to each cat, so it's hard to give a flat amount, but most cats need somewhere between 200-300 a day. If he starts to gain weight and you don't want him to, cut back the food. However, from what you mentioned when he had the DKA, he had been eating about the same high amounts when he went into DKA, so it seems like perhaps your cat has a high calorie need for whatever reason.
 
Calorie intake can really depend on the activity level and other factors specific to each cat, so it's hard to give a flat amount, but most cats need somewhere between 200-300 a day.
@Meya14
I hope it appropriate time and place to ask. :)Apologies if it doesn't.
My cat gained on no more than 250 Kcal in 24 and now I feed just less that 200 Kcal to maintain - she is at her goal weight. Weigh every 2 - 3 days. She is indoor strictly - little activities.
Two vets told me to give about that much.
Dr. Lisa blog - 135 for small non diabetic female cats.
As my kitties is also post DKA I feed more than Dr. Lisa recommends.
Do you think it is right to feed her less than you said above?
 
The food amount if hard to gauge in diabetic cats. In unregulated cats, they might be eating 400+ calories a day and still lose weight because most the extra calories (sugar) is lost in the urine. As a cat gets better regulated, they need less calories and if you continue to feed the same amounts you might see weight gain. The easiest way to figure out how much food to feed is weights. Calorie intake can really depend on the activity level and other factors specific to each cat, so it's hard to give a flat amount, but most cats need somewhere between 200-300 a day. If he starts to gain weight and you don't want him to, cut back the food. However, from what you mentioned when he had the DKA, he had been eating about the same high amounts when he went into DKA, so it seems like perhaps your cat has a high calorie need for whatever reason.

Actually I have not calculated the past months before he got sick but based on just looking at the high carbs i accidently gave, I also assume he had some higher calories more than now.
 
@Meya14
I hope it appropriate time and place to ask. :)Apologies if it doesn't.
My cat gained on no more than 250 Kcal in 24 and now I feed just less that 200 Kcal to maintain - she is at her goal weight. Weigh every 2 - 3 days. She is indoor strictly - little activities.
Two vets told me to give about that much.
Dr. Lisa blog - 135 for small non diabetic female cats.
As my kitties is also post DKA I feed more than Dr. Lisa recommends.
Do you think it is right to feed her less than you said above?

@Meya14
I add to Tanyas question....does it make a difference as to calorie intake because Sprocket is recent post dka and Tanyas is past longer with dka.
(@Tanya and Ducia. I think thats what you said...and I also assume because you said your kitty is not maintaining weight so I assume dka past is longer than a few months)

Hope that made sense....I am ready for bed.


I add...304 at +5.2.
Hope just bounce.
He is eating yet also less than normal while at top200s & low 300s.
Hope thats good sign.

Ok gnite!
 
nd I also assume because you said your kitty is not maintaining weight
No, I said that she does maintain weight on less than 200 Kcal a day. If she is over her goal weight for half a pound - I will reduce the caloric intake; will feed less so she at about the same weight.
high carbs i accidently gave, I also assume he had some higher calories more than now.
Higher carbs doesn't mean higher calories if that was what you meant.
I have not been totaling calories lately.
Its about 400-500.
I do think it is too much even for the post DKA cat.
 
Dr. Lisa blog - 135 for small non diabetic female cats.
I'm going to say it depends too much on the individual cat to put an exact number on it like that. With our 3 cats, one is 5 years old, a very slight build, weighs about 8 lb and is very active. Rosa's twin Regan is, of course, 14 as Rosa would have been. She weighs around 9.5 lb (up from just under 9 which made her look skinny and the vet would prefer her to be 10 lb ideally). She's not very active these days. And Roxi is 14.5 lb and probably somewhere between the other 2 for activity level. All of them get around 300 calories a day (Regan gets a little more if I can tempt her with a few extra treats as she needs to gain). If I cut any of them down to 135 calories, even though 2 of the 3 are small females, they'd lose weight very quickly. Yet Roxi needs no more food than either of the other two despite weighing pretty close to double what Licorice (the youngest one) weighs.

With that said, I do think 500 calories may well be a little too much for most cats unless Sprocket loses weight if you cut those calories down a little.
 
I'm going to say it depends too much on the individual cat to put an exact number on it like that. With our 3 cats, one is 5 years old, a very slight build, weighs about 8 lb and is very active. Rosa's twin Regan is, of course, 14 as Rosa would have been. She weighs around 9.5 lb (up from just under 9 which made her look skinny and the vet would prefer her to be 10 lb ideally). She's not very active these days. And Roxi is 14.5 lb and probably somewhere between the other 2 for activity level. All of them get around 300 calories a day (Regan gets a little more if I can tempt her with a few extra treats as she needs to gain). If I cut any of them down to 135 calories, even though 2 of the 3 are small females, they'd lose weight very quickly. Yet Roxi needs no more food than either of the other two despite weighing pretty close to double what Licorice (the youngest one) weighs.

With that said, I do think 500 calories may well be a little too much for most cats unless Sprocket loses weight if you cut those calories down a little.
The thing is that both Darnell and I are worried about repeating the DKA episodes. It is known and being said a lot that post DKA cats need extra. How much extra - it is very difficult to say. I agree that it all depends on individual cat. But is there a an aproximate amount of extra weight recommended for the post DKA kitties, a formula of some sort? Like in "ideal weight plus 1 pound extra, or half a pound extra" something? I based what my kitty eats on how much she "should" weight "ideally" and feed her to maintain that weight.
But with this "DKA again" threat it is so easy to overfeed and in this way create more health problem for the future.
 
The thing is that both Darnell and I are worried about repeating the DKA episodes. It is known and being said a lot that post DKA cats need extra. How much extra - it is very difficult to say. I agree that it all depends on individual cat. But is there a an aproximate amount of extra weight recommended for the post DKA kitties, a formula of some sort? Like in "ideal weight plus 1 pound extra, or half a pound extra" something? I based what my kitty eats on how much she "should" weight "ideally" and feed her to maintain that weight.
But with this "DKA again" threat it is so easy to overfeed and in this way create more health problem for the future.
I completely understand the various levels of concern here, even though I haven't personally had a cat go into DKA. I will say, although as we all know not everything is known about feline diabetes at this point, that there is no research or even veterinary recommendation that I can find that backs the theory of a post-DKA cat 'requiring' to be slightly overweight, or even 'requiring' extra calories once they have recovered from the initial episode.

I think we need to define some terms. You're asking how much extra weight a cat should carry to help prevent a future DKA episode. The problem with that is that carrying extra weight makes the diabetes more difficult to control - which also makes a repeat DKA more likely. Personally, I don't think any diabetic cat (or in fact any cat) should be deliberately or inadvertently overfed to the point where they are overweight - it is not healthy for them on many different levels, including control of their diabetes. I would also say that, rather than working from some 'chart' that gives the correct weight for a cat in pounds based on breed, gender etc, the decision over what is the correct weight for an individual cat should really be made using a Body Condition Score chart. Personally, I like this one as it's fairly easy to compare your individual cat to https://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/Body condition score chart cats.pdf I have never met a vet who wasn't happy to confirm where on the scale a cat falls if you're not sure from looking at the pictures. But we do have to be honest with ourselves. So many cats these days are overweight, that we have to look very critically at our cat compared to the chart when deciding where they really fall on the scale.

Then we have the question "do post-DKA cats need extra calories?". Well, they might. Many cats lose weight while they're in DKA and need more calories while recovering to get back to their ideal weight. It's possible that a post-DKA cat may actually process the food faster, or less efficiently etc and may need more calories for a time to prevent weight loss. But as to whether feeding in excess of their calorie needs once they reach ideal weight is useful, I'm not so sure because as soon as you do that, you're creating an overweight cat with all the problems associated with excess weight in animals. I would absolutely not consider that keeping, say, a 9 lb or 10 lb cat at a half pound or full pound overweight is in any way ideal for the cat.
 
there is no research or even veterinary recommendation that I can find that backs the theory of a post-DKA cat 'requiring' to be slightly overweight, or even 'requiring' extra calories once they have recovered from the initial episode.
It seems to be a consensus here, on the Board.
The problem with that is that carrying extra weight makes the diabetes more difficult to control - which also makes a repeat DKA more likely.
My thoughts exactly.

Thank you for the post. It does make sense - as in use common sense in your approach. :)
 
It seems to be a consensus here, on the Board.
As we know, the experience of the board often outweighs that of vets in these things. But with no research to back the idea, unfortunately there is no guideline on how many extra calories to feed or for how long. That's why I'm thinking common sense - if the individual cat needs to gain weight, then they do need more calories. If they start to become overweight, especially once they're recovered from the DKA, then I would cut them back a bit on food. Which isn't really so far different from what we should be doing with all our cats anyway - the ideal weight for a cat is ideal for a reason. :)
 
Yeah I think the question is due to the fact that many cats who are DKA prone have other co-morbidities that make them need extra calories. These issues can be temporary (infection) or chronic (IBS, pancreatitis, cancer, other chronic illness). There is no hard fast rule about # of cals to feed. It all depends on your cats build, activity level, health, age, etc. My 16lb fat cat gains weigh on 150 calories, but he sleeps all day and never wants to move. My 19-year-old lady cat eats probably 3 times that much and is a skinny thing cause she never stops moving. My IBS cat will start gaining or losing depending on how his illness is controlled.

So, my point is - weigh your kitties. If post DKA, you do want them to gain at least to their pre-DKA weight. Then back off the food. For others, in the past I've stated that very thin cats are harder to help in DKA because they tend to be fragile diabetics and you just can't get enough insulin in. So getting to a healthy weight for -your cat- is the goal. Also, cat's builds are all different, so a healthy weight will be different for each cat.

*****For those cats who are DKA prone - whenever you reduce food, or notice weight loss make sure to monitor for ketones for at least a couple week.
 
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