Teddy's first home curve

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Djamila said:
Honestly, I would not suggest a sliding scale on Prozinc with this little data to recommend it. I understand that's the best way to dose vetsulin, but prozinc behaves differently, and the protocol is pretty clear that a sliding scale should only be used if consistent dosing has been shown to be "dangerous or ineffective". It had already been suggested a few days ago that one unit was too much, and I think today confirmed that.

I would recommend either 0.25 or 0.5u above 200, and No Shot for anything below 200. Teddy has had two hypos in nine days. If it was my kitty, I would want to give him some time to recover his stored glucose reserves. In addition, he's constipated which often causes higher than normal BG. So if this is "higher than normal" for him, then I think that Shawna needs to be very very cautious about dosing right now which is why of the two options (0.25 or 0.5), I would probably lean toward the smaller dose. It may cause him to run a little higher for a few days, but none of his numbers are really that bad, and I'd much rather err on the side of safety at this point.

That is a conservative opinion, but if it was my cat, that's the approach I would take at this point. Aggressive dosing can be tried later when Teddy is healthier and when Shawna has had a break from all of this drama.

Hopefully when you take him in tomorrow, the vet can help with the pain medication choice and his immobility, along with getting him that enema. After that is resolved, the dosing can be figured out. Please keep us updated on how it goes tomorrow.

We all care very much about how both you and Teddy are doing. Janet is right, you did a great job getting through all of this today, monitoring, syringe feeding, getting the right treats to entice him....you did everything right. And since he had no shot tonight, you can take the evening to rest and heal your own spirits after all of this. You've had quite the start to your FD journey! I promise it isn't always this stressful! It's going to get better, and you're getting to be quite a pro at it already! Sending you hugs and hope for a peaceful evening for you both! :bighug:
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Thank you so much!! xoxoxox and I believe it was me that messed up today and not the suggestion I had to give 1 unit of insulin when he was at 271 this morning. The problem was he didn't eat enough and I didn't think well enough to realize if he doesn't eat enough I need to lower the dosage.
I just don't want you, or anyone, to think I ignored any advice on dosing. I would never, so I apologize if it seems like I did, because I am so thankful to you all!! And I couldn't do this alone. I was following advice but I messed up with him not eating enough.
I guess I just feel bad because I'm the one that has made him go hypo twice. The first time I truly didn't know what I was doing. And I don't know, but now I'm starting to ramble lol, I just hope you don't think I ignored your advice! I didn't mean to and I appreciate you so much!!!! With all my heart!!!!!

I'm going to do the most conservative amounts. And I'll let you know what happens at the vet! I wish my vet was open tomorrow, but if he doesn't go I'm definitely taking him tomorrow.

xoxoxoxo thank you from the bottom of my heart!
 
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shawna said:
Thank you so much!! xoxoxox and I believe it was me that messed up today and not the suggestion I had to give 1 unit of insulin when he was at 271 this morning. The problem was he didn't eat enough and I didn't think well enough to realize if he doesn't eat enough I need to lower the dosage.
I just don't want you, or anyone, to think I ignored any advice on dosing. I would never, so I apologize if it seems like I did, because I am so thankful to you all!! And I couldn't do this alone. I was following advice from here and it was good advice but I messed up with him not eating enough.
I guess I just feel bad because I'm the one that has made him go hypo twice. The first time I truly didn't know what I was doing. And I don't know, but now I'm starting to ramble lol, I just hope you don't think I ignored your advice! I didn't mean to and I appreciate you so much!!!! With all my heart!!!!!

I'm going to do the most conservative amounts. And I'll let you know what happens at the vet! I wish my vet was open tomorrow, but if he doesn't go I'm definitely taking him tomorrow.

xoxoxoxo thank you from the bottom of my heart!
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We're here to help. :smuggrin:
 
Rachel said:
Shawna you did GREAT today. We've all had meltdowns before and we know how you feel...but you handled it like a pro!!!! Teddy is super lucky to have you!
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You are so sweet. Well I didn't handle it like a pro this time, but hopefully going forward I'll be able to handle things better. Thank you for being there for me and Teddy today! Much love and thanks!!!!!!
 
shawna said:
Well you are so very appreciated. I honestly don't know where teddy or I would be without finding you all. Words just can't explain my gratitude. Xoxoxox
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I hope you feel better about what you're doing for Teddy. I know that having an emotional moment or two can make all the doubts and fears rise to the surface. :bighug:
 
I agree with Djamila's dosing recommendation. I think a sliding scale should only be implemented much further in the future if it is warranted...for now I would wait and see if some consistent dosing could work.
 
Side note Shawna, in the end, you CAN ignore our recommendations. Remember, you hold the syringe and you must be comfortable with his dosing. We can only recommend, it's your decision in the end. :bighug:
 
shawna said:
I guess I just feel bad because I'm the one that has made him go hypo twice.
I just hope you don't think I ignored your advice! I didn't mean to and I appreciate you so much!!!! With all my heart!!!!!
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Oh gosh, no!!!! Please don't think that!!! This whole thing is complicated, and we all lean on each other for advice and support! You didn't make him go hypo -- it's all part of the learning process in getting to know what works and doesn't work for your cat, since all of our cats are different. I think every single one of us has had hypos happen. As much as we try, there's no way to entirely avoid them. You haven't done anything wrong, and you don't at all need to feel bad!

Also, you're always welcome to ignore advice. None of us are God. We all just do the best we can. It doesn't hurt anyone's feelings if you read a comment and choose to go another direction. You know yourself, and you know your cat better than any of us ever could. So please please please know that you get to make the decisions and we all respect that. You've already seen on here that we have different opinions of what the best approach is on all of this. We all just do the best we can and speak out of what we've learned and our own experiences. So please don't ever feel like you have to listen to anyone if it doesn't seem right to you!

I really really apologize that my comments made you feel badly. You've done an incredible job today, and I'm so sorry! Please be proud of everything you're doing to take care of Teddy! I know it's been a stressful week, but you really are doing a great job!
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I hope you feel better about what you're doing for Teddy. I know that having an emotional moment or two can make all the doubts and fears rise to the surface. :bighug:
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Yes today I started thinking I wouldn't be able to do it anymore. Really had me frazzled and upset. Which I will always do anything for my Theodore, but it was a bad moment or two, or three lol
xoxox now I am back to feeling confident that I'll get better at all this. Thanks again.
 
Djamila said:
Oh gosh, no!!!! Please don't think that!!! This whole thing is complicated, and we all lean on each other for advice and support! You didn't make him go hypo -- it's all part of the learning process in getting to know what works and doesn't work for your cat, since all of our cats are different. I think every single one of us has had hypos happen. As much as we try, there's no way to entirely avoid them. You haven't done anything wrong, and you don't at all need to feel bad!

Also, you're always welcome to ignore advice. None of us are God. We all just do the best we can. It doesn't hurt anyone's feelings if you read a comment and choose to go another direction. You know yourself, and you know your cat better than any of us ever could. So please please please know that you get to make the decisions and we all respect that. You've already seen on here that we have different opinions of what the best approach is on all of this. We all just do the best we can and speak out of what we've learned and our own experiences. So please don't ever feel like you have to listen to anyone if it doesn't seem right to you!

I really really apologize that my comments made you feel badly. You've done an incredible job today, and I'm so sorry! Please be proud of everything you're doing to take care of Teddy! I know it's been a stressful week, but you really are doing a great job!
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No it wasn't your comments that made me feel bad!! It was me because I just wanted to make sure you and others knew I appreciate your help so much and I'd never ignore advice! Especially from you all!!
I realize my huge mistake this morning because he didn't eat enough so I just feel real guilty. That's what it all was, me feeling guilty and then I stared to worry that you wouldn't think I value your advice and I do!!!
Ok what you said is a good thing that no one will ever think I'm ignoring their advice and no one gets feelings hurt - that is good. It's good to read advice and then make a decision. I mean it makes sense....but I'm just one hot mess today - so I'm all over the place. I am sorry. I am going to get my act together and be more level headed with all of this!!

You've done nothing except be an amazing and caring person and you've helped me so much!!!!!!
Thank you :bighug: xoxo
 
Shawna, I prescribe a lovely glass of wine, a good binge watching show on netflix, and a good night's sleep for you! I think we can all agree you've EARNED it today!!!!
 
I just tested him five hours after his pm pre shot of 75...no insulin given..... he has refused all food since this afternoon. I gave him some honey and syringed a couple syringes of water-food-mix into him.

And now at 11pm his blood sugar is 250.
I'm a bit scared of what morning will bring, but I'll stay calm. Is this what that bounce term means when it goes from low to high?

Is blood sugar under 300 is safe in terms of leg damage?

I'll start a new thread tomorrow. Love you all. Goodnight!
 
shawna said:
And now at 11pm his blood sugar is 250.
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This is probably because he didn't receive insulin this evening. It might also be a bounce - ie., an overly high number because of that protective response to (previous) low BG.

shawna said:
he has refused all food since this afternoon.
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Keep a close eye on this. Are you taking him to see a vet about the constipation issue? I'd mention the lack of eating because that can become an issue itself.

shawna said:
Is blood sugar under 300 is safe in terms of leg damage?
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One number isn't important. Rather, it's high BG over a long period of time that contributes to neuropathy.

shawna said:
I'm a bit scared of what morning will bring, but I'll stay calm.
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Let's see what his BG is tomorrow morning. Your SS shows a no shot at both 1 u and 0.75 u. It might be wise to drop to 0.5 u tomorrow AM. He'll be more insulin sensitive after these low numbers today.
 
shawna said:
Is this what that bounce term means when it goes from low to high?
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I was about to say the same thing as Kris.
Also wanted you to know that I think you did great today. The first time Uncle went really low I freaked out and it was the middle of the night (for most people). Thankfully on the Lantus forum their are a couple of night owls with lots of experience who make themselves available to help. I myself feel so thankful for this place and the wonderful people who choose to share their knowledge and support.
Hope as I write this you and Teddy are getting a good night's sleep :bighug:
 
Kris & Teasel said:
This is probably because he didn't receive insulin this evening. It might also be a bounce - ie., an overly high number because of that protective response to (previous) low BG.


Keep a close eye on this. Are you taking him to see a vet about the constipation issue? I'd mention the lack of eating because that can become an issue itself.


One number isn't important. Rather, it's high BG over a long period of time that contributes to neuropathy.


Let's see what his BG is tomorrow morning. Your SS shows a no shot at both 1 u and 0.75 u. It might be wise to drop to 0.5 u tomorrow AM. He'll be more insulin sensitive after these low numbers today.
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Ok that all makes sense. That is good to know about the numbers having to be high for a long time to cause more problems.
Yes. I'm going to definitely call the vet about the constipation issue tomorrow. I'd rather bring him to my vet on Monday because she is closed tomorrow. But I don't want to wait any longer, especially the eating problems now....so at least I've been to this other place before and they a good.

Should I post the am pre shot tomorrow, or just whatever the number is just sick to .5 u. And then I can see how it goes?

Thanks!
 
shawna said:
Ok that all makes sense. That is good to know about the numbers having to be high for a long time to cause more problems.
Yes. I'm going to definitely call the vet about the constipation issue tomorrow. I'd rather bring him to my vet on Monday because she is closed tomorrow. But I don't want to wait any longer, especially the eating problems now....so at least I've been to this other place before and they a good.

Should I post the am pre shot tomorrow, or just whatever the number is just sick to .5 u. And then I can see how it goes?

Thanks!
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I suggest you post the AM pre shot number. If no one responds in time, give 0.5 u.
 
Barbara & Uncle said:
I was about to say the same thing as Kris.
Also wanted you to know that I think you did great today. The first time Uncle went really low I freaked out and it was the middle of the night (for most people). Thankfully on the Lantus forum their are a couple of night owls with lots of experience who make themselves available to help. I myself feel so thankful for this place and the wonderful people who choose to share their knowledge and support.
Hope as I write this you and Teddy are getting a good night's sleep :bighug:
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Aw you are such a sweetheart! Thanks. Im so thankful to have found this place and all of you as well! Teddy and I are all cuddled up. He is purring and I am thankful . We are going to sleep in a minute...so tired lol.
Goodnight :)
 
shawna said:
Aw I'm glad to hear Uncle is doing ok...how did you come up with that name? It's adorable. Is that meter you use a human one?
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When I first started I used the AlphaTrak, but I soon realized I test so much, I would go broke! So I use a human meter now.
Here's the story of Uncle's name. It's a little long-winded.
When I moved to my house many years ago, there were a lot of feral cats my the street. I couldn't stand watching them struggling (and dying) from starvation and anemia from fleas, so I started trapping and taking them to be spayed/neutered. I stopped counting after 20 cats, but I did name them all before finding homes. Uncle was a big bad tomcat who seemed to be from an earlier litter as 2 others I already had living with me, Annabelle and Squeaky. I figured maybe he was their UNCLE (but more likely a half-brother). He was crafty and hard to trap. When I finally did, I had to wear leather gloves to pick up the trap and and take him in, he was so wild. I had him ear tipped because at his age I didn't think I could socialize him enough to home. Well, three months later he moved in all on his own and became a cuddle monkey part of the family and grooming all the other cats and sleeping in the bed!
 
shawna said:
If a diabetic cat does not get insulin at the pm 12+ time, can the blood sugar still drop or does it just get higher?
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It can continue to drop but after the 12 hour mark, the insulin isn't as effective so as long as you don't dose again at the 12 hour make, they won't hypo on their own. This may not be a Prozinc Standard but when they keep dropping when next shot is due, it can mean dose is too much. Can also mean their pancreas is doing some work. I don't know if I explained that very well :oops:. Maury's last curve on 14 April clearly "shows" what I'm talking about ;)
 
Barbara & Uncle said:
When I first started I used the AlphaTrak, but I soon realized I test so much, I would go broke! So I use a human meter now.
Here's the story of Uncle's name. It's a little long-winded.
When I moved to my house many years ago, there were a lot of feral cats my the street. I couldn't stand watching them struggling (and dying) from starvation and anemia from fleas, so I started trapping and taking them to be spayed/neutered. I stopped counting after 20 cats, but I did name them all before finding homes. Uncle was a big bad tomcat who seemed to be from an earlier litter as 2 others I already had living with me, Annabelle and Squeaky. I figured maybe he was their UNCLE (but more likely a half-brother). He was crafty and hard to trap. When I finally did, I had to wear leather gloves to pick up the trap and and take him in, he was so wild. I had him ear tipped because at his age I didn't think I could socialize him enough to home. Well, three months later he moved in all on his own and became a cuddle monkey part of the family and grooming all the other cats and sleeping in the bed!
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Aw what a sweet story. You are such an amazing person for helping all those cats, xoxoxox
 
Yong said:
It can continue to drop but after the 12 hour mark, the insulin isn't as effective so as long as you don't dose again at the 12 hour make, they won't hypo on their own. This may not be a Prozinc Standard but when they keep dropping when next shot is due, it can mean dose is too much. Can also mean their pancreas is doing some work. I don't know if I explained that very well :oops:. Maury's last curve on 14 April clearly "shows" what I'm talking about ;)
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Thanks, you explained it well. I just looked at his curve, yes I see what you mean. I don't completely understand things yet, but I'm getting there. I don't understand my cats numbers from yesterday to today, because he has had no insulin since yesterday morning yet his numbers are going up and down. I thought without insulin numbers only went up. I need to do more reading so I can really understand.
 
shawna said:
Thanks, you explained it well. I just looked at his curve, yes I see what you mean. I don't completely understand things yet, but I'm getting there. I don't understand my cats numbers from yesterday to today, because he has had no insulin since yesterday morning yet his numbers are going up and down. I thought without insulin numbers only went up. I need to do more reading so I can really understand.
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Wow! Those are great numbers to get after no insulin! :) Very positive sign. Has he eaten or pooped?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
How is Teddy today, Shawna?
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I could only get into the emergency vet, so I emailed my vet in hopes she would see the email..to see if I should go there or what she advised. She did see it and emailed me back. She said if he isn't throwing up and if I can still get him liquids, then I can drop him off in the morning before I go to work if I wanted to. I am glad she wrote back and said that because if I had to go to the emergency place they would of had to do tests and my vet knows everything about teddy and I'd feel better for her to be taking care of him.
I'm feeling really sad about everything today. Nothing has changed with him but he has no appetite. I syringed him a bit of food a few times today. The tramadol worked for pain and I'm going to see if the side effects go away otherwise I'll ask for the bup med.
His blood sugar numbers are confusing me from last night to current, and I won't need insulin at all today...doesn't make sense, but I'm sure soon it will make more sense to me.
Thanks for asking, xox
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Wow! Those are great numbers to get after no insulin! :) Very positive sign. Has he eaten or pooped?
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He only ate because I syringed him food and water. He hasn't pooped yet. I just wrote to you in a different reply. Im dropping him off before work tomorrow. We have end of the year testing tomorrow or I would take the day off to be with my teddy. But when he is done at the vet I might leave work to at least go drive him home.
 
So glad you are dropping him off in the morning, for the enema correct? I think most of us wouldn't have any appetite if we hadn't poo'd in almost a week :(
 
Yong said:
So glad you are dropping him off in the morning, for the enema correct? I think most of us wouldn't have any appetite if we hadn't poo'd in almost a week :(
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I dont know what she will do, but I'll talk to her in the morning. She knows I'm dropping him off because of that reason and the not wanting to eat. I will talk to her more tomorrow. I just want teddy to feel better. I know that's what everyone wants for their cats. It's just so heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking seeing him walk with such a weird and weak walk...really heartbreaking.
 
shawna said:
I dont know what she will do, but I'll talk to her in the morning. She knows I'm dropping him off because of that reason and the not wanting to eat. I will talk to her more tomorrow. I just want teddy to feel better. I know that's what everyone wants for their cats. It's just so heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking seeing him walk with such a weird and weak walk...really heartbreaking.
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I'm so sorry Teddy isn't feeling good. I'm absolutely positive that the enema should help relieve some of his pain as well.
I have had many of my cats on Bupe as well and I think is a good pain med.
Glad he's going to the vet that knows you both well!
 
for future consideration, this can be used in cats to get thing moving

Any item like this used in cats must be 100% glycerin, no exceptions.

Edit: glycerin is placed in the cat's rear not mouth
 

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Barbara & Uncle said:
I'm so sorry Teddy isn't feeling good. I'm absolutely positive that the enema should help relieve some of his pain as well.
I have had many of my cats on Bupe as well and I think is a good pain med.
Glad he's going to the vet that knows you both well!
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Thanks, I really get sad leaving teddy at the vet...I always stay with him, (except the one time he had a curve done there and he turned into a crazy lion trying to scare everyone :nailbiting: lol!! When I picked them up they told me to be careful...no I'm his mom and he knows it, lol) But tomorrow he has to go alone one more time...my first graders need me because we have testing. Teddy will only be there alone a short time, but he's such a big baby and I hate thought of him being scared there. Everything is just breaking my heart...I love this little guy so much! I hope things go well tomorrow. Well I'll just be thankful it's Ted's vet and she great, and hopefully he will feel a little better after tomorrow!
 
shawna said:
Thanks, I really get sad leaving teddy at the vet...I always stay with him, (except the one time he had a curve done there and he turned into a crazy lion trying to scare everyone :nailbiting: lol!! When I picked them up they told me to be careful...no I'm his mom and he knows it, lol) But tomorrow he has to go alone one more time...my first graders need me because we have testing. Teddy will only be there alone a short time, but he's such a big baby and I hate thought of him being scared there. Everything is just breaking my heart...I love this little guy so much! I hope things go well tomorrow. Well I'll just be thankful it's Ted's vet and she great, and hopefully he will feel a little better after tomorrow!
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I know we worry about leaving them there but this is what he needs and you like and trust your vet. After he's back home tomorrow he'll forget all about it - and hopefully will feel better after an enema. :)
 
I see on your other thread that you read Beth73's message about a laxative she uses regularly on her kitty, Elmo. He has long-standing issues with constipation.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I see on your other thread that you read Beth73's message about a laxative she uses regularly on her kitty, Elmo. He has long-standing issues with constipation.
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Yes thank you for tagging me so I could get that information! I am going to buy some and try it out to prevent this from happening again! Thanks :)
 
shawna said:
Yes thank you for tagging me so I could get that information! I am going to buy some and try it out to prevent this from happening again! Thanks :)
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Yes, I think it's a case of keeping things moving so they can't get backed up. It's hard to get that log jam shifted then.
 
shawna said:
Thanks, I really get sad leaving teddy at the vet...I always stay with him, (except the one time he had a curve done there and he turned into a crazy lion trying to scare everyone :nailbiting: lol!! When I picked them up they told me to be careful...no I'm his mom and he knows it, lol) But tomorrow he has to go alone one more time...my first graders need me because we have testing. Teddy will only be there alone a short time, but he's such a big baby and I hate thought of him being scared there. Everything is just breaking my heart...I love this little guy so much! I hope things go well tomorrow. Well I'll just be thankful it's Ted's vet and she great, and hopefully he will feel a little better after tomorrow!
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I'll be keeping you guys in my thoughts tomorrow :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I know we worry about leaving them there but this is what he needs and you like and trust your vet. After he's back home tomorrow he'll forget all about it - and hopefully will feel better after an enema. :)
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Yes you're right and I really hope so...I hope he wants to eat the minute he gets home!! :)
 
shawna said:
Thank you :)
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You are welcome. Much less expensive than an enema, done at home and just enough lubrication that the cats is able to slide things out and empty their bowel.

Edit to add: I had a cat that would get plugged up AND he wouldn't reuse a box to defecate in. He had three boxes. One night, he got his pedialax went down the row and filled all three boxes, as fast as he filled, I cleaned and emptied. He used a total of six boxes. Of course, it was in the middle of the night .

Cisapride helped him. It helped the cilia move the stool through his colon.

Good luck and best wishes to you and your boy.
 
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