3. Lois and RIP-Java

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Lois and Java

Lois and Java

Member Since 2016
That one day of all low BG reads completely changed my feelings about Java and the diabetes. I feel more hopeful, less impending doom. I can see his spreadsheet as the glass half-full instead of half-empty. Even when it's horrendously high pre-shot, you're right, he does come down mid-cycle!

I have a nice stock of AT2 strips now, but the reason I keep using the HS meter is that it reads slightly lower.

We're all out on the deck seeking just the right combination of shade and sun, and Lily is yakking up a grass and hairball, ah that's the life. (It is, too, all kidding aside.)
 
Lois, I'm so glad to hear you're feeling a little better about how things are going. You really are doing a great job of taking care of Java (and Lily).

Your afternoon sounds absolutely lovely! A sunny deck/garden is what I imagine kitty heaven to be like.
 
That sounds like a lovely way to spend the afternoon!! And you're right, Java does come down mid cycle...so while it's tough, his life is clearly still in a good place!
 
Hey guys, this is freaking me out. So I just did java's p.m. pretest
186 on right ear.
That's seemed too low so I ran it twice on the HS meter
Then I got the AT2 out and ran it again
all times on his left ear and all three times I got. "HI" both meters
Which is when the BG is 750 mg slash DL or higher
The Henry Schein manual says Veterinary assistance immediately,
The AT2 says follow veterinarian surgeon treatment advice

I noticed while I had him in my lap that he's dehydrated again. I'm warming up ringers, and I was going to give him a hundred milliliters of ringers anyway.
I did a ketone test I think it was yesterday or the day before and it was negative.

He's hungry, and he needs insulin, and I'm not sure what to do.
 
Left to my own devices I think I would feed him, give him 1.75 units of insulin, give him 100 milliliters of ringers, wait an hour and test again.

Unless I really should be hauling my butt to the vet ER????
 
Lois and Java said:
Hey guys, this is freaking me out. So I just did java's p.m. pretest
186 on right ear.
That's seemed too low so I ran it twice on the HS meter
Then I got the AT2 out and ran it again
all times on his left ear and all three times I got. "HI" both meters
Which is when the BG is 750 mg slash DL or higher
The Henry Schein manual says Veterinary assistance immediately,
The AT2 says follow veterinarian surgeon treatment advice

I noticed while I had him in my lap that he's dehydrated again. I'm warming up ringers, and I was going to give him a hundred milliliters of ringers anyway.
I did a ketone test I think it was yesterday or the day before and it was negative.

He's hungry, and he needs insulin, and I'm not sure what to do.
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Here's what I suggest, Lois: give it another 15 - 20 minutes and retest. Stick with the meter you've been using the most (the HS?). Try two readings from the same blood drop if you can. Take those at face value. If they're high, it's just more of Java's bouncing. No need for a trip to the ER vet, just stick with the 1.75 u dose. If the readings are low, post here.

I think you can take down the red 911 now.
 
I agree with Kris. If he's acting really sick like he's in DKA then yes- ER but if it's just a HI reading the insulin should help him come back down.
 
Lois and Java said:
I've never seen a HI reading before.
It obviously freaked me out!
Thank you!!!
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Unfortunately I've seen many! Mine stops at 600. So anything over that is a "HI" reading. A few times it's taken him over 4 hours to come back down under 600 so I have no idea how high he actually was but I assume it was really high.
 
So just to clarify -- you're saying she should give him the 1.75u and wait 15-20 minutes and retest? Or wait without shooting? I'm assuming you're saying she should give the insulin, but want to make sure.
 
Oh good clarification. I'm sitting here waiting on the insulin but maybe I should get it in to him ASAP.
Plus he was looking for food about 20 minutes ago 30 minutes ago, so is hungry, or was.
 
Djamila said:
So just to clarify -- you're saying she should give him the 1.75u and wait 15-20 minutes and retest? Or wait without shooting? I'm assuming you're saying she should give the insulin, but want to make sure.
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What I mean is wait 15 - 20 min, retest, give 1.75 u insulin if high or repost here to decide dose if low. Sorry I wasn't clear.
 
He's relaxing on the sofa looking comfortable, if I didn't have this blood test, I wouldn't think anything was going on.
About to test now. I'll come back if it's slow but otherwise I'm going to test, put the numbers on the spreadsheet, feed and get insulin in him as quickly as I can.

The ringers, I think the ringers is probably a good idea? He had ringers only two days ago, and I haven't gotten a call back from the mobile vet, but I'm hoping that she's coming tomorrow early afternoon..... Unsure if I want him to be dehydrated then or not.... Actually why am I saying that I don't want to be dehydrated
 
What is the mobile vet checking for? I would think the ringers would be ok to give... Don't want him to get too dry. Chuck was getting dehydrated and it took a couple weeks of adding water to his food to see a difference. I'm sure the ringers work quicker but with the high numbers he will pee it out quicker too!
 
Thank you all, and especially Kris.
He seemed pretty much the same this afternoon, I was hanging out next to him, reading, most of the afternoon.

I've got ringers and NaCl fluids hanging from S hooks in my bathroom. I have them because he has mild kidney disease, elevated levels of creatinine and Bun, but they haven't changed much over the last 4 years. When Java seemed really ill about three weeks ago I took him to Dave the vet, and he gave him a B12 shot and NaCl subq. It seemed to really help Java. Dave subsequently said give him ~125 ringers one day, and NaCl the other day. After getting Marje to look at his Labs, her expert feedback maybe decide not to give him the NaCl. I did notice a couple days ago that he was dehydrated, skin tenting, harder to get blood out of ear, so I gave him a hundred milliliters, less than Dave had said. Right after that was that extraordinary day of 200s.

The mobile vet, I want to find out what I should do re the ringers, Dave not very helpful. See if she has any other recommendations. Establish a relationship for the future also, cuz he's so old. Support.
 
StephG said:
Unfortunately I've seen many! Mine stops at 600. So anything over that is a "HI" reading. A few times it's taken him over 4 hours to come back down under 600 so I have no idea how high he actually was but I assume it was really high.
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Wow your spreadsheet kind of looks like mine! I see the 600-plus that you were talking about. I'm afraid your SS is one of the ones, like Kris', that for some reason is incredibly difficult for me to look at.

A spreadsheet that's still DL in my Google Sheets folder is Coo pers. That was a shock. He seemed to be doing so well on his SS, to me anyway, and then boom.
 
I can do better on food. This afternoon I've been listing food low in carb and phosphorus. Reducing phosphorus, Marje indicated, is really beneficial to kidney cats.
I feed FF classic pate and YA. The FF pate is pretty high in phosphorus!
 
Djamila said:
You're the third person who has needed this list today! Here are foods that are good for both diabetes and kidney disease:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/112NvvzgxEBOtkb42rA0XR8GeShw9xXs9kccf9-olK7I/pubhtml
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Where was that? I went through all the Listings in the food thread I thought and the only one I found was from 2012 that have phosphorus and carbs.

Hooray, this is awesome, that's exactly what I need. Yeah I've been compiling notes from the most recent Dr. Pearson list! I'm sure it would be faster do on the computer, I'be been doing it by hand.
 
Here's the other thing that I feel I need help with. Just sorting out the vitamin B situation. I have injectable vitamin B12. I have an RX so I can buy liquid vitamin B12, which I have not done. I've been giving Java Zobaline for several weeks now, maybe a month. I have jarrows B right, which is recommended by tanyas CKD website, and is bitter, so I quit giving it to him in his food, and I have to get gel caps. What is the most Optimum thing for him to do?
This doesn't help Java one bit but I feel terribly guilty that I haven't been doing whatever it is since he was first diagnosed.
 
Lois and Java said:
Here's the other thing that I feel I need help with. Just sorting out the vitamin B situation. I have injectable vitamin B12. I have an RX so I can buy liquid vitamin B12, which I have not done. I've been giving Java Zobaline for several weeks now, maybe a month. I have jarrows B right, which is recommended by tanyas CKD website, and is bitter, so I quit giving it to him in his food, and I have to get gel caps. What is the most Optimum thing for him to do?
This doesn't help Java one bit but I feel terribly guilty that I haven't been doing whatever it is since he was first diagnosed.
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Sorry, Lois, I don't have any experience with this.
 
Lois and Java said:
Wow your spreadsheet kind of looks like mine! I see the 600-plus that you were talking about. I'm afraid your SS is one of the ones, like Kris', that for some reason is incredibly difficult for me to look at.

A spreadsheet that's still DL in my Google Sheets folder is Coo pers. That was a shock. He seemed to be doing so well on his SS, to me anyway, and then boom.
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Yes, Steph and I have scary looking spreadsheets. You can see why I can't react to each of Teasel's numbers - I'd go bonkers! :confused:
 
Lois and Java said:
Wow your spreadsheet kind of looks like mine! I see the 600-plus that you were talking about. I'm afraid your SS is one of the ones, like Kris', that for some reason is incredibly difficult for me to look at.

A spreadsheet that's still DL in my Google Sheets folder is Coo pers. That was a shock. He seemed to be doing so well on his SS, to me anyway, and then boom.
Click to expand...
Yes! I get discouraged looking at Chuck's SS and it is crazy and overwhelming to many. But fortunately the last week on lantus has looked the BEST it has, EVER. Minus 4/9... Didn't expect such LOW numbers and then the bounce was 100% expected. We keep on keepin on!
 
Congrats on the best numbers ever! Go Chuck!

You said you've been on the FDMB for a couple of years right? I don't know how long Kris has been here. Still wondering why I can't see your SSs readily. Maybe I have an updated template cuz I'm new, and you are on a different template?

I'm getting organized for the vet who still hasn't called me back. I'm a tiny bit surprised at how much medical equipment I have for Java.

I gave him 100 ml ringers at +2.5, to leave a little bit of time after insulin shot. Check his BG + 3, 623. Something's registering yay!
 
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I've been on the forum since 9/8/16 (day after we started insulin) so a couple days past 7 months. Looks like Kris joined 8/17/16 but that doesn't mean it was the beginning of her feline diabetes experience.
 
StephG said:
Can you see the whole thing if I post this link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jmn0YHLt9TKyxvh2tktiCK0kkmhytN_C33rP_1qlbV4/edit?usp=sharing
I hid a few months of results hoping it would load easier for other viewers. Sometimes on my phone it will lag and get glitchy.
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Yes! It moves up down R L easily now. Yeah, the other link, I'm mostly using my phone, I can see the one panel that comes up first, and that's it. It freezes.

What's the pancreas booster? Has regimenting the time, type, amount food been helpful? He gained weight, that's why kitten food? You use a baby scale?
 
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I read about the pancreas booster here on the forum. It's "PetAlive pancreas booster". I haven't really seen a difference in numbers but his poo isn't as stinky and it's firmer even without pumpkin. But the pumpkin really helped him firm up.
He gained weight with extra food. I think he really started gaining after starting young again zero mature for snacks. But with lantus right regulation protocol it's not allowed. My civvie still eats it.
I actually just sit Chuck on my scale. I put it on the table turn it on and allow it to zero and then sit him on it. He sits down like he's going to get tested and once the number blinks I write it down.
He gets most of his food preshot because he's so reactive to food that anything after +6 would send him racing to the top. Now on lantus it hasn't...yet. I switched from kitten food to FF classics. 3 or 2 % carb ones on the list for his +7 snack. The lower the carbs the better for him. I couldn't find the FF naturals which are listed at 0 carbs on Dr Lisa's list.
ETA: I updated the URL in my signature. Hope it continues to work better.
ETA 2: I noticed I have to open the SS of anyone, even my own, in my "browser" app instead of my chrome browser (that I use for everything else including the forum) on my phone. Never use to be that way but I figured it was my cheap "not-so-smart" phone.
 
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StephG said:
I've been on the forum since 9/8/16 (day after we started insulin) so a couple days past 7 months. Looks like Kris joined 8/17/16 but that doesn't mean it was the beginning of her feline diabetes experience.
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Teasel was diagnosed at the end of January 2016 but I didn't officially join FDMB until mid August 2016. I was following my vet's routine faithfully even though I lurked here regularly. When I tested one morning pre shot in August and saw he was very low I called her for advice and she recommended dropping his dose only 0.2 u. I just knew that wasn't the right thing so I decided it was high time I did something different. I was very slow to get with the FDMB program. Kudos to all the people who come here soon after diagnosis!
 
I registered here probably the same day Java was diagnosed. I probably looked around, got overwhelmed, and figured just follow vet Dave's RX. Java was in the vet ER 36 hours later with BG in the 30s.
I didn't come here again until January.
So we're going on 6 months with diabetes. That's pretty remarkable really. You know how upset I get about stuff, I didn't think he could make it this long with diabetes. I don't know what I would do if I wasn't retired. Make it work somehow, but it would be so much more dangerous for him.

HIs BG is in red this morning, which comes as a blessed relief. He's out doing his old man cat yard-surveying business with Lily as his hearing ear cat.

The traveling vet hasn't called yet, which isn't super surprising because she does surgeries Saturday. I left another message. My friend with arm sarcoma, I asked her to be a second set of eyes and ears, for late at night when I'm saying to myself, now what did the vet say again? She doesn't have a car so I need time to pick her up, I hope after yoga, I'm hoping for the 1-3 time slot.
 
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I had lurked here a couple times before joining. Once starting prozinc and calling the vet to confirm I was suppose to give 7 units even if he didn't eat... Then I gave him the shot. Decided to check his bg level and he was on his way to hypo I think it was 3 hours in. I ended up here on the second day of insulin in panic mode.
 
It truly is shocking the number of vets that give bad advice about dosing kitties.
I read and post sometimes on the FB page. Someone posted a whole story about their Maine Coon who died, no one knew what was wrong with it etcetera., late at night, didn't know what was wrong, what to do. It was a textbook description of a hypo. Broke my heart man, all they had to do was get a little honey or Caro in that cat mouth and it would still be alive
 
I joined up the day my cat was diagnosed. She was diagnosed in the morning and I didn't get the insulin til that evening (had to drive to another town to get it since I wanted to start that day). I remember that in the morning, when we left they had told us to buy some prescription food when we got the insulin. As we headed up to get the insulin, my boyfriend was googling FD (in an attempt to calm me down). He found catinfo.org and FDMB and that was that! We got the insulin, didn't even bother buying the rx food but just got some from the food list on Dr. Lisa's site, and joined FDMB.

I was lucky that my bf knows me and knows that information calms me down because I feel empowered and know what to do. I would never have found this without him and I know for a fact that this place saved Gypsy's life on more than one occasion!
 
The mobile vet just called back, yes appt 1-3. I hope this isn't a mistake! She was just saying she doesn't think cats need tight controls on Diabetes because cats go all over the place anyway.
He's so old, I want a relationship with somebody for, let's be real, end of life. Also someone to look at Lily. Mostly what to do with Ringer's, how often. Vit B etc.
Should I vacuum or go to yoga? Yoga. Later!
 
Vet spent a lot of time with us like three or three and a half hours, ~3-6 or 6:30 pm. I'm completely wiped out. I feel positive about the consultation, and about her. So did my friend, who is as great a pet parent as you guys. I'm grateful my friend was there so I can text her when I have questions, memory faults.

I'm going to be updating the SS for shots, vitamins, Ringers, ketones, but I agreed to not test his BG for a week (unless certain behaviors), and the reasons for that were laid out and I understood them, I'm just too tired to go over it right now. He had a classic Somagi while we were waiting for her. (Same as our bounce?)

One thing I should say, she wants me to pull YA food entirely. Ingredients list tomato pulp, a fruit pulp. Wet food available at all times.
Hugs! Later. Must lie down!
 
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Lois, I know your vet gave you reasons for not testing, but I'd be EXTREMELY worried about that if I was you. Testing doesn't affect how the cat feels, and considering you just had lime green numbers yesterday, imagine what you could miss if you didn't test. Considering Java's history, not testing seems like a bad idea to me.

I know you're going through a lot and I don't want you to feel stressed or upset, but not testing can be so dangerous and it worries me. ESPECIALLY since you're changing food...that can make BG go down even further and without monitoring, he could have a hypo that we never discover.

Please don't let my thoughts here stress out out. I'm not trying to argue with your vet or diminish your confidence, but I feel it wouldn't be responsible of me to not voice my concerns and the reasons behind them. :bighug:
 
I know. I'm not entirely convinced. And if there's anything that I have learned, which was confirmed 30 minutes ago when I feared he was going low, is that I am not able to accurately perceive his BG by his behavior.
I'm just exhausted today. I need to go out and get different food for him that's lower in protein and low carb. Lower in protein because of the kidney values. And I have to order ringers. I might just get through today and deal with it tomorrow!
 
Not trying to stress / worry you more but I have heard some kitties don't always show symptoms until it is very dangerous. I thought Phosphorus was the thing to watch for kidney health? Did you look at the list Djamila posted for low carb / low phos foods?
 
When my Bubba had congestive heart failure the vets at Cornell wanted him on a low protein and low phos diet because he was on lasix that were hard on the kidneys. BUT I knew he only had 3-6 months to live so I said screw it- he'll eat like a king. And he did. Kidney failure is what ultimately ended his fight. Kidneys failed and he was severely anemic. He needed a transfusion and his heart couldn't handle it. I had to let him go. But he made it 6 months and 10 days! He had to prove them wrong!
Only told that story to say that I have heard of low protein for kidney issues too.
I also agree that testing is important. At least preshots and maybe just 1 mid cycle to preserve your sanity and energy. You don't have to tell her you tested unless it shows an issue. You can try to tell her it's important to you to at least do preshots and see if she gives in at least that much. You wouldn't dose a child without checking so why a pet-- great convincing statement for most people including vets!
I think it's a good idea to take a breather this evening. Treat yourself to some relaxation and reset your mind and energy.
 
Lois and Java said:
I know. I'm not entirely convinced. And if there's anything that I have learned, which was confirmed 30 minutes ago when I feared he was going low, is that I am not able to accurately perceive his BG by his behavior.
I'm just exhausted today. I need to go out and get different food for him that's lower in protein and low carb. Lower in protein because of the kidney values. And I have to order ringers. I might just get through today and deal with it tomorrow!
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Take a breather, Lois. No need to decide anything today. You're probably wrung out from a long and intense vet visit and all the mental go around caused by the advice you received. I know that this sort of thing would exhaust me.
 
You're right, it's phosophorus. But she also said protein.
Low phos, and moderate protein - the lowest I can find.
Zobaline for folic acid
She included a giant bottle of injectable B12 in the visit. Shot once a week.
Decrease insulin to 1.1 (fat 1) twice daily
wet food out at all times
take up YA
She's calling in a compound for gabapentin\
Check ketones. If even trace, test BG
If ever not interested in food, test BG
Ringers every 2, 3 days, let appetite and activity level be my guide\
check physical signs often, tacky or shiny pink gums? dull or shiny eyes?
Get a kitty heating pad
She's running a urine culture
In 3 weeks, recheck kidney values
At the library printing out food info. Okay off to pet store
 
StephG said:
When my Bubba had congestive heart failure the vets at Cornell wanted him on a low protein and low phos diet because he was on lasix that were hard on the kidneys. BUT I knew he only had 3-6 months to live so I said screw it- he'll eat like a king. And he did. Kidney failure is what ultimately ended his fight. Kidneys failed and he was severely anemic. He needed a transfusion and his heart couldn't handle it. I had to let him go. But he made it 6 months and 10 days! He had to prove them wrong!
Only told that story to say that I have heard of low protein for kidney issues too.
I also agree that testing is important. At least preshots and maybe just 1 mid cycle to preserve your sanity and energy. You don't have to tell her you tested unless it shows an issue. You can try to tell her it's important to you to at least do preshots and see if she gives in at least that much. You wouldn't dose a child without checking so why a pet-- great convincing statement for most people including vets!
I think it's a good idea to take a breather this evening. Treat yourself to some relaxation and reset your mind and energy.
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This is definitely something to consider. Dave the vet told me a year or two ago when I was speaking generally about Java aging, that he wasn't sure how much of a difference treatments really helped. He said that he had more resources than most people, and with one of his cats, he went all out with the medical treatment. He didn't feel the cat lived that much longer than it would have if he'd just let it eat drink and be merry. He said that with subsequent cats, he wouldn't pull out all the stops, if they had a favorite food, that was fine, let them live out their life doing what they like the most.
Java has been a little brighter eyes, I think. He's come in and is lying next to me on the couch where I'm binge watching Homeland. Which makes me suspicious actually. This is not a cuddly cat. He just got insulin, but he's also eaten recently. It shouldn't be a hypo.
I don't like screwing with his biochemistry, but then again that's all I have been doing since October. He's completely at my mercy, he totally trusts me, I want to be doing the right thing.
 
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