Need some input please??? Tested at 9:00 am 426

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Jadi & Tiffany

Jadi & Tiffany

Member Since 2017
Hi there,

My cat, Tiffany still is not feeling great...sleeps most of the day. Is super hungry and thirsty, although today she has been sleeping most of the day. Tested her tonight before her dinner, 448. I spoke with my vet earlier today, she said her feeling is that my cat needs to go to 5 units. When I mentioned that this group thought that was too high...she did explain that if we have her at too high of a dose, she could be compensating and we are getting high numbers.

She said we could go down to 3 units and test that out by doing blood samples every three hours tomorrow. I do need to work!! Ugh..this is a lot of work...you all are dedicated. Should I do this????

Jadi
 
I would stick with 4 units. We don't have enough data to say what this dose can do. Can you get a before bed test tonight? You need to hold the dose at least six cycles, unless she goes low. Many cats go lower at night.
 
I have to agree with Wendy. If possible try to get some mid cycle tests at night too. Is it possible Tiffany might have something else causing the numbers to stay high? Are you able to test for Ketones?
 
I know how hard it is to wake up..... night is for sleeping....unless you are a :cat:

but what I found helped me to wake up just enough for a test and go right back to bed was to drink a big glass of water ....
when I got up for the bathroom, I grabbed a quick test....

and when it was really necessary because of low numbers.... i slept on the couch... ( so i wouldn't wake up my husband with my alarm clock)
 
Also can you not give the dm food and only do low carb wet? It will keep the insulin from having to lower food raised bg.

A bit more info in your signature would be helpful so multiple people don't keep asking the same questions. Including date diagnosed, food feeding, any other health concerns, insulin type, and meter type.
 
Jadi Faul said:
Hi there,

My cat, Tiffany still is not feeling great...sleeps most of the day. Is super hungry and thirsty, although today she has been sleeping most of the day. Tested her tonight before her dinner, 448. I spoke with my vet earlier today, she said her feeling is that my cat needs to go to 5 units. When I mentioned that this group thought that was too high...she did explain that if we have her at too high of a dose, she could be compensating and we are getting high numbers.

She said we could go down to 3 units and test that out by doing blood samples every three hours tomorrow. I do need to work!! Ugh..this is a lot of work...you all are dedicated. Should I do this????

Jadi
Click to expand...
How was Tiffany's 4 u dose determined? Was a BG curve done at the vet clinic? Was Tiffany eating dry food at the time?
 
No curve was done at the vets office. The animal hospital where she was diagnosed with a kidney infection and an ultra sound determining that her kidneys are not in great shape started her on .5 units of Lantus after doing testing periodically throughout the night. Her vet has been the one to increase the Lantus to 4 units over 2 weeks time and then change her to Levemir. She told me to up the dose to 5 units last night based on her numbers. I did not get a test this morning, but got one at 9:15 a.m. It was 426!!! How can she not be responding to insulin...she does not feel great...I am worn out...I need to work today!!! I can not afford to keep putting her in the animal hospital...they have charged us a fortune in the past month...we have 2 kids in college...we adore our cat...but this has been going on for a month now...no stabilizing in site. (My vet is highly competent...has had her own cat with diabetes go into remission...and she counsels with the Diabetic Specialist at the hospital here in San Diego where our cat has been treated.)
 
Jadi Faul said:
No curve was done at the vets office. The animal hospital where she was diagnosed with a kidney infection and an ultra sound determining that her kidneys are not in great shape started her on .5 units of Lantus after doing testing periodically throughout the night. Her vet has been the one to increase the Lantus to 4 units over 2 weeks time and then change her to Levemir. She told me to up the dose to 5 units last night based on her numbers. I did not get a test this morning, but got one at 9:15 a.m. It was 426!!! How can she not be responding to insulin...she does not feel great...I am worn out...I need to work today!!! I can not afford to keep putting her in the animal hospital...they have charged us a fortune in the past month...we have 2 kids in college...we adore our cat...but this has been going on for a month now...no stabilizing in site. (My vet is highly competent...has had her own cat with diabetes go into remission...and she counsels with the Diabetic Specialist at the hospital here in San Diego where our cat has been treated.)
Click to expand...
There's a possibility that the dose is too high and the bouncing phenomenon is in play. If so, raising the dose will make it worse.
 
Hello Jadi,

I am too new t FD to offer an opinion on dosage but I know just too well the heartache when I see one.

My cat was diagnosed one month ago; she’s been to ERs in the North San Diego County for various reasons in the past 3 weeks so I am aware of the costs. Monitoring at home and posting on this Board can help you to avoid such sky high expense.

I have spoken with numerous respectable vets all of whom wanted my cat girl on higher Lantus dose but for now I decided to start with the lower dose of 1.25U. I am able to test her BG often. If you take a look at her SS you’ll see that there are a lot of times when Ducia “ignored” the insulin dose and remained in the high numbers. The next cycle after such “ignoring” with the same dose of insulin and the same food amount/ carb value she responds very well! I am too new to explain/ understand what is going on with my own kitty. I just keep going on.

But one thing is for sure: this message board is the best place ever to discuss your concerns about your kitty. People here are carrying, knowledgeable, and willing to help you. Just give them some more data on your kitty. They can help you with interpreting your kitty BGs.

You can change the prefix of your post ‘s title to a question mark. This way you will attract more eyes and opinions. To do so, go to your original post and click on the “title tools” in the upper right corner. Then change prefix of your title to “?”. You can always change it back later on.

Wishing you good luck with all my heart.
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
When I spoke to my vet yesterday afternoon, she said to go to 5 units. I mentioned that this group thought the dose was too high. She mentioned a possibility of the bouncing phenomenon...and said I could go down to 3 units and test every 3 hours. Being unsure...and needing to give insulin I took her first advice and went to 5 thinking my cats bg would go down and she would feel better. It was 426 at 9 am. What do you all suggest I do now???
 
Tanya and Ducia said:
Hello Jadi,

I am too new t FD to offer an opinion on dosage but I know just too well the heartache when I see one.

My cat was diagnosed one month ago; she’s been to ERs in the North San Diego County for various reasons in the past 3 weeks so I am aware of the costs. Monitoring at home and posting on this Board can help you to avoid such sky high expense.

I have spoken with numerous respectable vets all of whom wanted my cat girl on higher Lantus dose but for now I decided to start with the lower dose of 1.25U. I am able to test her BG often. If you take a look at her SS you’ll see that there are a lot of times when Ducia “ignored” the insulin dose and remained in the high numbers. The next cycle after such “ignoring” with the same dose of insulin and the same food amount/ carb value she responds very well! I am too new to explain/ understand what is going on with my own kitty. I just keep going on.

But one thing is for sure: this message board is the best place ever to discuss your concerns about your kitty. People here are carrying, knowledgeable, and willing to help you. Just give them some more data on your kitty. They can help you with interpreting your kitty BGs.

You can change the prefix of your post ‘s title to a question mark. This way you will attract more eyes and opinions. To do so, go to your original post and click on the “title tools” in the upper right corner. Then change prefix of your title to “?”. You can always change it back later on.

Wishing you good luck with all my heart.
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
Click to expand...
Thank you!!!!
 
Just did one hour ago... 426. She is sleeping soundly and snoring. Breaks my heart when our beloved pets feel so bad. Thank you for your sweet note! How is Ducia doing?
 
Are you following one of the two protocols outlined in the stickies on this forum? If you have time now to read the info and decide, there are clear guidelines on what to do with dosing. However, that won't help much right now if you're already way over a good dose.

If it was my cat and I saw that the high doses weren't helping, I'd drop the dose significantly (to maybe 2 u to start), give it for several days to allow the depot to stabilize at that level and test urine for ketones daily if possible. I'd aim for tests in the +3 to +8 range every day as well as a before bed test.
 
Jadi Faul said:
Is super hungry and thirsty
Click to expand...
I agree with Kris 100%. Do test her urine.
I got mine testing strips at CVS but they are also sold at Walmart, at Walgreen's all of them cost around $10-$15. With high BG numbers it is extremely important to be aware of ketone bodies presence/hopefully absence in her urine.
 
Jadi Faul said:
I took her first advice and went to 5 thinking my cats bg would go down and she would feel better. It was 426 at 9 am. What do you all suggest I do now???
Click to expand...
Do not change the dose unless Tiffany gets a low number (below 90), and please test regularly. Lantus and Levemir are depot insulins and the depot only stabilizes if you hold the dose for at least 6 cycles (shots). If you constantly change the dose each day, we can't figure out what is a good dose for Tiffany, or whether it's too high or too low.

Cat's blood sugar numbers can be high for a number of reasons. (1) the dose is too low and she's not getting enough insulin. (2) the dose is too high and her body is protecting her against too much insulin. (3) she had a recent dose change and the depot is stabilizing, we call it New Dose Wonkiness (4) her numbers dropped quickly or to a number lower than she's used to and is bouncing. From the New to the Group Sticky:

Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

So how do we determine which of the above scenarios is at play? First, learn to be patient. It's one of the hardest things most of us have had to do. I am not normally a patient person but feline diabetes has changed that. Insulin is a hormone, not a drug - you can't expect immediate improvements. Second - continue to get periodic blood test values so we can see which of the scenarios is happening. That includes testing before every shot, so you know it's safe to give insulin. For Levemir, getting tests in the back half of the cycle or 6+ hours after the shot are key. That's typically when any low numbers would appear and we try to figure out the dose by how low it takes kity.

Five units is a highish dose for a cat on an all low carb wet food or raw diet, but ECID = every cat is different. Some cats have other conditions that mean they need higher doses. My Neko got up to 8.75 units but I did it slowly and carefully so I knew it wasn't too much insulin. One unit changes are larger changes than we do here. Do you have syringes with half unit markings on them?
 
@Jadi Faul like the others have suggested, stick with the current dose for now & get some mid cycle tests in when you can.

As for the test every three hours, that's a curve. To do a curve at home all you need to do is first pick a day that you will be home all day, no need to take a day off work & cause yourself more stress. The next step is to test at pre shot time then feed & shoot insulin as normal. After the shot you test every two hours for one cycle (12 hours). That's the easier way to do a curve. The last step is to enter the data to your spreadsheet after each test so it's up to date.

One last thing to remember. Diabetes is not something that will go away overnight, it requires allot of patience. Please ask if you have any questions, this board has allot of experience treating feline diabetes & with the help of everyone here allot of kitties have been regulated on insulin or gone into remission including my kitty Tutz!

We can only do our best to help our kitties so please make sure you take care of yourself or you can't take care of your extra sweet kitty.
 
Jadi Faul said:
Her vet thinks now that we may have increased the dose too fast. Which is what this group is saying..I am going to do a curve tomorrow.
Click to expand...
I see you changed the dose again tonight. Please pick a dose and stick with it, for at least 3 days, unless you spot a low number. With all this changing of doses, we really can't figure out what her dose should be. Tomorrow's curve may or may not have any value because you've had three different doses in two days.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Do not change the dose unless Tiffany gets a low number (below 90), and please test regularly. Lantus and Levemir are depot insulins and the depot only stabilizes if you hold the dose for at least 6 cycles (shots). If you constantly change the dose each day, we can't figure out what is a good dose for Tiffany, or whether it's too high or too low.

Cat's blood sugar numbers can be high for a number of reasons. (1) the dose is too low and she's not getting enough insulin. (2) the dose is too high and her body is protecting her against too much insulin. (3) she had a recent dose change and the depot is stabilizing, we call it New Dose Wonkiness (4) her numbers dropped quickly or to a number lower than she's used to and is bouncing. From the New to the Group Sticky:

Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

So how do we determine which of the above scenarios is at play? First, learn to be patient. It's one of the hardest things most of us have had to do. I am not normally a patient person but feline diabetes has changed that. Insulin is a hormone, not a drug - you can't expect immediate improvements. Second - continue to get periodic blood test values so we can see which of the scenarios is happening. That includes testing before every shot, so you know it's safe to give insulin. For Levemir, getting tests in the back half of the cycle or 6+ hours after the shot are key. That's typically when any low numbers would appear and we try to figure out the dose by how low it takes kity.

Five units is a highish dose for a cat on an all low carb wet food or raw diet, but ECID = every cat is different. Some cats have other conditions that mean they need higher doses. My Neko got up to 8.75 units but I did it slowly and carefully so I knew it wasn't too much insulin. One unit changes are larger changes than we do here. Do you have syringes with half unit markings on them?
Click to expand...

Yes, I do. I spoke with my vet again this afternoon. She wanted me to go down to 3 units twice a day and do a curve tomorrow. She is agreeing now that we may have gone too fast! I wish I would have started with you all first. I agree..all this flip flopping is making me crazy. Patience is a good word for this. Do you think she is safe at 3? Do I need to find a new vet?
Wendy&Neko said:
I see you changed the dose again tonight. Please pick a dose and stick with it, for at least 3 days, unless you spot a low number. With all this changing of doses, we really can't figure out what her dose should be. Tomorrow's curve may or may not have any value because you've had three different doses in two days.
Click to expand...

I will go ahead and stay with the 3 which is what my vet told me to go to...I am seriously doing the best I can...I have received so much conflicting information from everyone..on what to feed..when to feed...doses...insulin...I am just a pet owner trying to the best I can and seriously exhausting myself in the process. I also am trying to listen to the professional, with an education, who I know and has devoted her life to treating pets. I appreciate your help, but a little grace for me and this whole process would be appreciated.
 
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