Help! Vonnegut is no longer fun to be around :(

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Caroline17

Caroline17

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I just posted my into to the intro forum. I may cover some of the same ground here so apologies if you read both. Some of this may get rant-like, but I miss my old pre-diabetes cat!!!!

We have been diagnosed with both diabetes and pancreatitis for about a year now. Vonnegut is 9 years old and neutered. I have no idea how long his diabetes went undiagnosed since my previous vet never thought to run an in hospital glucose test. Needless to say, we go a new vet.

Here are my issues. Vonnegut has been food seeking like CRAZY since he started losing weight while we were in the process of diagnosing him. I now keep bungee cords on garbage cane, cabinets, etc. I had to start putting wine in the fridge because he would eat the cork and puke it back up. He is never satisfied with the amount of food he gets. This became a true issue last night at 1 am. He knocked a pill vial with 1 rimadyl for my 60 lb pit who just had surgery. He was so focused he pulled the cap off and ate the pill. No worse for the wear but I don't want him getting into meds.

He is no longer using the litter box appropriately. I have other cats in the house so I keep a box and a half per cat. We use World's Best cat litter and have not changed that. Boxes are scooped out twice a day and fully changed as needed (never more than a few weeks, which is how his boxes have been kept his entire life). He defected out of the boxes at least once a day, usually more like 2-4 times. I know it is him because the poop has that pancreatitis grey hue. He is also urinating outside the box regularly. He has never sprayed until the past 6 months or so. Now it's daily. I currently keep my cat boxes in the garage so just the kitties can go through the cat door to access them. Vonn has started to urinate inside on rare occasions too. He has lived in this home for 4-5 years before these behaviors started.

Aside from this, he just doesn't seem happy. I can't walk through the house barefoot because he bites my toes. I've tripped on him more than once. He bit the ever living hell out of me the other day when I was getting dinners ready. I just don't know what to do. I feel like I've tried everything. Different foods with more fiber, smaller more frequent meals, changing the litter box set up to have boxes where he prefers to go. My vet has no insight. I feel like we are missing a piece of the puzzle, but with the recent surgery and impending chemo for the pit my vet funds have been drained. I really don't want to put my Purr Bunny down, but I'm really wondering if that might be for the best.

And and all insight is appreciated. Thanks so much in advance.
Caroline and Vonnegut
 
Unregulated cats are literally starving because they can't get the nutrients they need out of the food. As long as the food you are feeding is low carb (under 10%) you can feed him as often as he needs. Just pick it up 2 hours prior to testing his blood glucose before his shot. Getting him regulated is also the key to getting his bathroom habits under control. Are you very sure he doesn't have a UTI? Diabetic cats are often prone to them.

Hopefully you ARE testing at home. If not that is really the key to getting him regulated and keeping him safe.

What insulin are you giving and what dose?

What is your feeding schedule and what food are you feeding?

Is he currently getting pain medication and fluids for the pancratitis? Is he currently having a flare?
 
JanetNJ said:
Unregulated cats are literally starving because they can't get the nutrients they need out of the food. As long as the food you are feeding is low carb (under 10%) you can feed him as often as he needs. Just pick it up 2 hours prior to testing his blood glucose before his shot. Getting him regulated is also the key to getting his bathroom habits under control. Are you very sure he doesn't have a UTI? Diabetic cats are often prone to them.

Hopefully you ARE testing at home. If not that is really the key to getting him regulated and keeping him safe.

What insulin are you giving and what dose?

What is your feeding schedule and what food are you feeding?

Is he currently getting pain medication and fluids for the pancratitis? Is he currently having a flare?
Click to expand...

Hi Janet, thank you for your quick reply!

Vonn is not currently having a flare. He has been tested for UTI and is clear. He gets blood panels every 6-8 weeks. His fructosamine was perfect on last check (I'm not fond of this test for management). We got our initial diabetes diagnosis in June '16 and pancreatitis in September '16. He's been treated and tested aggressively since then.

He is on 1/4 tsp of pancrezyme twice a day and 4.5 units of ProZinc twice a day. He is as regulated as I think we will get him. Pre morning dose glucose reading is between 275-375. At 3+ he is around 250 and at 6+ he is closer to 150. I don't test daily because I can't get him to let me stick his pads, just his ears and they get ouchy.

He's eating a full can of friskies pate (only the 7% carb or under as my vet didn't want to push 10% carbs) twice a day (goal is 12 hours between main feedings and insulin injections). I have tried half can of friskies with a half can of the hills diabetic formula or the hills W/D weight management with no change in behavior. He also gets canned tuna and/or canned pumpkin as a snack between meals. When the other boys finish eating Vonn tries valiantly to snag their dry food. He's always been a chow hound, but now he's more like a garbage compactor.
 
I agree, until your kitty is regulated he'll be out of control. Dusty was the same way, always looking for food and water, peeing huge amounts inside and outside his box, pooping all over the place because he was constipated from dehydration. He would just just run around the house hiding, it was a sad time but once he was regulated, the old Dusty came back more loving and grateful to have been nursed back. This is the place to be to get all the help and advice you need to get your old kitty back.
 
Dusty Bones said:
I agree, until your kitty is regulated he'll be out of control. Dusty was the same way, always looking for food and water, peeing huge amounts inside and outside his box, pooping all over the place because he was constipated from dehydration. He would just just run around the house hiding, it was a sad time but once he was regulated, the old Dusty came back more loving and grateful to have been nursed back. This is the place to be to get all the help and advice you need to get your old kitty back.
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That's the thing. My vet says he's regulated and has been for 4 months. Perhaps my vet and I have a different view of regulated? Might it be worth another opinion? This vet doesn't want to try other insulins, just the ProZinc and I'm sure not married to that stuff. I just want whatever helps my kiddo feel better.
 
Caroline17 said:
Hi Janet, thank you for your quick reply!

Vonn is not currently having a flare. He has been tested for UTI and is clear. He gets blood panels every 6-8 weeks. His fructosamine was perfect on last check (I'm not fond of this test for management). We got our initial diabetes diagnosis in June '16 and pancreatitis in September '16. He's been treated and tested aggressively since then.

He is on 1/4 tsp of pancrezyme twice a day and 4.5 units of ProZinc twice a day. He is as regulated as I think we will get him. Pre morning dose glucose reading is between 275-375. At 3+ he is around 250 and at 6+ he is closer to 150. I don't test daily because I can't get him to let me stick his pads, just his ears and they get ouchy.

He's eating a full can of friskies pate (only the 7% carb or under as my vet didn't want to push 10% carbs) twice a day (goal is 12 hours between main feedings and insulin injections). I have tried half can of friskies with a half can of the hills diabetic formula or the hills W/D weight management with no change in behavior. He also gets canned

and/or canned pumpkin as a snack between meals. When the other boys finish eating Vonn tries valiantly to snag their dry food. He's always been a chow hound, but now he's more like a garbage compactor.
Click to expand...

4.5 units is quite a high dose. Make sure you are monitoring very carefully. It's rare for a cat to need more than 3 Units, and their needs can change quickly and without much warning. This is why a preshot test before dosing is so important. Fructosamine tests are not super helpful in determining if a cat is regulated. Generally speaking we consider a cat to be regulated if their number is around 300 preshot, and down to 100 at nadir. There is definitely room for improvement in your cats numbers. You're cat needs to get down BELOW 150 on a pet meter and below 120 on a human meter in order for their pancreas to rest and improve. a non insulin dependent cat runs between 68-150 on a pet meter, and between 50-120 on a human meter.

Are you using a human or pet meter? I ask because the numbers can vary quite a bit between the two.

OK, On feedings... until he's regularly in lower numbers (low to mid 200's and down to around 90-100 nadir) you're cat will require more food than a typical cat. Most of us do not feed just at shot time, but instead give several mini meals throughout the day. Some even use timed feeders to give a mid day and mid evening meal. My cat gets wet food morning and evening, and then I leave out Young Again Zero (1% carb) and Evo cat and kitten (7%) out all the time for them to eat. while it is important your cat have food at both shot times, feeding smaller meals in between will help satiate your cats appetite. Just no food two hours before preshot times so that the numbers aren't food influenced.

Be very careful he's not getting any of the dry you are giving the other cats as most dry food is 30% carb or more.

I want to assure you that testing your cat's ears multiple times a day will not cause any harm. If the ears look sore after a day of testing a bunch of times, try putting a little Neosporin gel with pain relief on the ears. You will notice that most of us on this board have a link in our signature to a spreadsheet that we use on this board. the spreadsheet (we have the template available on here) allows other members to check our numbers and offer help and suggestions. You can look at my cat's ss below. She is currently in remission for the past six months after receiving insulin for four months. I regularly tested her 4-8 times a day, and that testing was paramount in getting her not only regulated, but eventually into remission.
 
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Caroline17 said:
That's the thing. My vet says he's regulated and has been for 4 months. Perhaps my vet and I have a different view of regulated? Might it be worth another opinion? This vet doesn't want to try other insulins, just the ProZinc and I'm sure not married to that stuff. I just want whatever helps my kiddo feel better.
Click to expand...
Prozinc is a good, long lasting insulin... but the numbers definitely have room for improvement.
 
JanetNJ said:
4.5 units is quite a high dose. Make sure you are monitoring very carefully. It's rare for a cat to need more than 3 Units, and their needs can change quickly and without much warning. This is why a preshot before dosing is so important. Fructosamine tests are not super helpful in determining if a cat is regulated. Generally speaking we consider a cat to be regulated if their number is around 300 preshot, and down to 100 at nadir. There is definitely room for improvement in your cats numbers. You're cat needs to get down BELOW 150 on a pet meter and below 120 on a human meter in order for their pancreas to rest and improve. a non insulin dependent cat runs between 68-150 on a pet meter, and between 50-120 on a human meter.

Are you using a human or pet meter? I ask because the numbers can vary quite a bit between the two.

OK, On feedings... until he's regularly in lower numbers (low to mid 200's and down to around 90-100 nadir) you're cat will require more food than a typical cat. Most of us do not feed just at shot time, but instead give several mini meals throughout the day. Some even use timed feeders to give a mid day and mid evening meal. My cat gets wet food morning and evening, and then I leave out Young Again Zero (1% carb) and Evo cat and kitten (7%) out all the time for them to eat. while it is important your cat have food at both shot times, feeding smaller meals in between will help satiate your cats appetite. Just no food two hours before preshot times so that the numbers aren't food influenced.

Be very careful he's not getting any of the dry you are giving the other cats as most dry food is 30% carb or more.

I want to assure you that testing your cat's ears multiple times a day will not cause any harm. If the ears look sore after a day of testing a bunch of times, try putting a little Neosporin gel with pain relief on the ears. You will notice that most of us on this board have a link in our signature to a spreadsheet that we use on this board. the spreadsheet (we have the template available on here) allows other members to check our numbers and offer help and suggestions. You can look at my cat's ss below. She is currently in remission for the past six months after receiving insulin for four months. I regularly tested her 4-8 times a day, and that testing was paramount in getting her not only regulated, but eventually into remission.
Click to expand...

I'm buying that low carb dry food and switching the other boys too. I didn't realize there was an easily accessible low carb dry food. Vonn loves his dry food and that might help a great deal. Being able to leave it out for grazing will help when my husband or I can't be home. I'll definitely give that a try.

When we first got the diagnosis I came here to lurk. I started a spreadsheet but have let it lapse. I'll get started back in that since I'm definitely understanding that no matter what the vet says, he's not regulated.

Thank you again, ever so much. I'll get on my end of things and update in the next few days.
 
Caroline17 said:
I'm buying that low carb dry food and switching the other boys too. I didn't realize there was an easily accessible low carb dry food. Vonn loves his dry food and that might help a great deal. Being able to leave it out for grazing will help when my husband or I can't be home. I'll definitely give that a try.

When we first got the diagnosis I came here to lurk. I started a spreadsheet but have let it lapse. I'll get started back in that since I'm definitely understanding that no matter what the vet says, he's not regulated.

Thank you again, ever so much. I'll get on my end of things and update in the next few days.
Click to expand...
Once you get the ss up and running there are many very knowledgeable and experienced people on the ProZinc forum that will be happy to help you with dosing.

What meter are you using?

When you get a chance, it would be helpful to set up a signature with info like date diagnosed, food and feeding schedule, type of insulin and dose, type of meter, other health concerns such as the pancratitis, and anything else you want to share.

To do this click on your screen name in the upper right corner and choose signature. Save after writing the info.
 
Hi it's me again. I have a little tidbit to share. As I mentioned on your welcome thread, my Menace has a high dose condition. I had one fructosamine run and it suggested Menace was doing great even though when I looked at my daily testing, it was obvious something was amiss and she was NOT doing as well as the fructosamine suggested. I refuse to waste any more money on fructosamine testing and have managed to reduce my girl's dose by over 50%. She was on 16 units of insulin twice daily for a while but I have managed to get that substantially reduced through daily testing and dosing accordingly.
Personally, I think fructosamine testing may be useful for diagnosing a cat but for monitoring I don't have any faith in it at all. Daily home testing is the only way to get a handle on what is going on.
 
JanetNJ - I'm glad I tested this morning and I am GLAD I listened to you guys. He was at 163 on the AlphaTrak 2. I did not administer insulin. I made a signature, but still need to get the spreadsheet up and going. I'll definitely head over to the ProZinc so I can start getting on top of this. You guys have given me hope that Vonner will be a happy kitty again.

MrWorfMen's Mom - I too am a Trek fan. I had to wonder if Mr. Worf was a reference. I've had two fructosamine run and both show he is in range, but his day to day does not indicate this. I'm back on board with testing daily. Again, thanks for all the support. You guys have given me some hope for the Big Boy.
 
The idea of only feeding twice a day is a very " old school" way of thinking. My old vet was the same way while my new vet said to feed several times a day if that's what is needed. Smoky is also very underweight and the IBD makes it difficult for him to digest his food.
He will sometimes eat up to 18 oz of canned food per day.
Have you considered switching all your kitties to wet food? Many people find this easier to do and you can freeze cans of food and leave it out to thaw for him to eat throughout the day. It's just something to think about is all.:joyful:
 
Hi Caroline! I just wanted to say welcome! I'm over on the Prozinc forum, and look forward to having you join our little group.

Great job getting a test this morning! Catching that low number before dosing was so important. The more data you have, the better advice you'll get about dosing. Here is the link to setting up a spreadsheet.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

Please let us know if you need any help getting it set up and added to your signature. It will make your life so much easier!

Looking forward to getting to know you and Vonn!
 
Lisa and Smoky said:
The idea of only feeding twice a day is a very " old school" way of thinking. My old vet was the same way while my new vet said to feed several times a day if that's what is needed. Smoky is also very underweight and the IBD makes it difficult for him to digest his food.
He will sometimes eat up to 18 oz of canned food per day.
Have you considered switching all your kitties to wet food? Many people find this easier to do and you can freeze cans of food and leave it out to thaw for him to eat throughout the day. It's just something to think about is all.:joyful:
Click to expand...

Freezing cans of food is GENIUS! I want to switch the other three to canned food. My tortie female goes through phases where she really prefers dry, but the boys love their wet food. Vonn tends to get overweight. Even being unregulated he has put on about 2 pounds (hurray for being back in a healthy weight zone, no hurray foe the fact that he still doesn't look healthy). I'm getting some low carb dry food today and we have started, as of yesterday, giving him less canned food at breakfast and dinner and splitting that into multiple smaller meals.
 
Djamila said:
Hi Caroline! I just wanted to say welcome! I'm over on the Prozinc forum, and look forward to having you join our little group.

Great job getting a test this morning! Catching that low number before dosing was so important. The more data you have, the better advice you'll get about dosing. Here is the link to setting up a spreadsheet.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

Please let us know if you need any help getting it set up and added to your signature. It will make your life so much easier!

Looking forward to getting to know you and Vonn!
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'll get my spreadsheet set up and put it in the signature. See you over at ProZinc. I'm just so happy I finally stopped lurking. You guys are the best!

I even got purrs, cuddles, and a blankie sucking session (bottle baby, he's a weirdo which makes me love him more) with Vonn last night. He says he likes you guys cos you made me feed him more often.
 
That's great that you are making some changes. I can't take credit for the idea of freezing cans of food though. I got that idea from other members, just wanted to pass it on.
I put cans of food in a freezer proof container overnight, and pop them into a timed feeder in the morning for his lunch and dinner. I have a petsafe feeder with five compartments in it. The last one I leave empty so he doesn't have access to food for the two hours before am and pm tests. A friend of mine has one diabetic and two civvies, what we call non diabetic cats. She has three timed feeders that close 2 hours before test time. Her cats have wet food to snack on every two hours and they are all switched over to low cal food.
 
Caroline17 said:
JanetNJ - I'm glad I tested this morning and I am GLAD I listened to you guys. He was at 163 on the AlphaTrak 2. I did not administer insulin. I made a signature, but still need to get the spreadsheet up and going. I'll definitely head over to the ProZinc so I can start getting on top of this. You guys have given me hope that Vonner will be a happy kitty again.

MrWorfMen's Mom - I too am a Trek fan. I had to wonder if Mr. Worf was a reference. I've had two fructosamine run and both show he is in range, but his day to day does not indicate this. I'm back on board with testing daily. Again, thanks for all the support. You guys have given me some hope for the Big Boy.
Click to expand...
Good catch! You probably could have done a tiny dose, but I'm glad you didn't give his full dose.

As far as potty issues, if you only have 1 or 2 boxes, consider adding another.
 
JanetNJ said:
Good catch! You probably could have done a tiny dose, but I'm glad you didn't give his full dose.

As far as potty issues, if you only have 1 or 2 boxes, consider adding another.
Click to expand...

I have 5 boxes. 4 standard deep boxes and one long rubbermaid dealie that doesn't see much use
 
As far as low carb dry goes, the only one that didn't affect my kitty's bg was young again (available online only, they will send a sample). It is high calorie so it's not as expensive as it looks. However, cats need water and wet food is the best way to get it. Diabetics need it even more. Only use dry as a very occasional thing.
 
billysmom (GA) said:
As far as low carb dry goes, the only one that didn't affect my kitty's bg was young again (available online only, they will send a sample). It is high calorie so it's not as expensive as it looks. However, cats need water and wet food is the best way to get it. Diabetics need it even more. Only use dry as a very occasional thing.
Click to expand...

Great advice! I like the Young Again a bit better than the Evo on price. I plan to use it only at night for grazing if he gets super hungry. He's good about drinking. luckily. He's gotten better since I changed how we do water. We had a fountain thing in the bowl and changed it every couple of days. Took the fountain out, fresh water daily, and now even the dogs drink better!
 
For overnight you can leave out frozen wet food. Freeze portions in an icecube tray. Or put them in a timed feeder set to open a couple times during the night. I only used the young again if I was going to be gone for a couple days but not long enough to board him. So it was very infrequent. He was in remission. The EVO raised his bg about 100 points.
 
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