What do you consider too low in glucose count

Status
Not open for further replies.
johnt

johnt

Member Since 2016
I don't know exactly what I should do here.

My cat is experiencing lower glucose levels than i feel comfortable with.

Example. I gave him a shot at 5:45pm. it's not 10:45 pm. his blood glucose is 96.
I checked him last time and about 6 hours it was 104.

Shouldn't i be keeping him around 150 or so? I'm not as concerned with that, as I am worrying if i'm approaching dangerously low levels

does it sound like i am? i would assume that vetsulin is pretty well at full power afte 5 hours but i don't know
 
I should also add. it is EXTREMELY hard for me to get blood from him. I have to sneak up and get it while he's in heavy sleep or he will simply fight me too much. So when I can get it i'm thrilled from that fact alone
 
johnt said:
I don't know exactly what I should do here.

My cat is experiencing lower glucose levels than i feel comfortable with.

Example. I gave him a shot at 5:45pm. it's not 10:45 pm. his blood glucose is 96.
I checked him last time and about 6 hours it was 104.

Shouldn't i be keeping him around 150 or so? I'm not as concerned with that, as I am worrying if i'm approaching dangerously low levels

does it sound like i am? i would assume that vetsulin is pretty well at full power afte 5 hours but i don't know
Click to expand...
Hi John, are you using a human meter or a pet meter lie the AlphaTrak?
Reason why I 'm asking is that on a human meter below 5o is the danger zone where as anything below 68 on a pet meter is too low.
 
Hi.

I'm using a human meter.

So 96 isn't dangerous then. I think that helps. isn't that about the peak time for VetSulin? or is it later?
 
johnt said:
I don't know exactly what I should do here.

My cat is experiencing lower glucose levels than i feel comfortable with.

Example. I gave him a shot at 5:45pm. it's not 10:45 pm. his blood glucose is 96.
I checked him last time and about 6 hours it was 104.

Shouldn't i be keeping him around 150 or so? I'm not as concerned with that, as I am worrying if i'm approaching dangerously low levels

does it sound like i am? i would assume that vetsulin is pretty well at full power afte 5 hours but i don't know
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with Vetsulin's onset or nadir times (my cat is on Lantus) but maybe this link will help until someone knowledgeable comes along.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/vetsulin-caninsulin-user-guide.302/
 
I've tried, I can't get blood anywhere near often enough to manage a spreadsheet. it's very difficult. I'm going to just kind of watch him for awhile.
 
Hi John.

I also am not familiar with Vetsulin, but I will second what Barbara said - 96 is a perfectly safe number. I would guess that he is at or near nadir, so I don't think there is a cause for concern. If you can get another test at some point in the next couple of hours, it would probably be a good idea. Failing that, give him a little food.

Have you seen this post with tips to help you with testing? There might be something in there that will help you. What exactly is the problem that you're having? Uncooperative cat? No blood coming out? Maybe we can help.

I'm headed your way this next week for the NASCAR races. Order some cooler weather for me, would you please? It's been 30+ years since I lived in AZ and I am no longer used to the heat! ;)
 
Vetsulin usually peaked for me at 5 hours post shot. Sometimes 6 hours past. Either way your cat is in safe numbers. The danger number on a human meter is 50.... I'd say a 96 is PERFECT. It's exactly what you want to see. Numbers below 120 on a human meter but above 50 is the healing range. This is where your cats body can heal it's pancreas! Don't be afraid of green numbers. 150 is the top range of normal on a pet meter, (68-150), but a little bit high for a human meter. I use a pet meter and always aimed to get my lowest point about 85 -90.
 
johnt said:
I've tried, I can't get blood anywhere near often enough to manage a spreadsheet. it's very difficult. I'm going to just kind of watch him for awhile.
Click to expand...
Do you warm the ear ahead of time? Are you aiming for the sweet spot? You mentioned using a human meter, but are you using the lancets that came with it or did you buy bigger ones? The ones that come with human meters are 31 gauge which are too small to easily get a sample. You'll want to use 26 or 28 guage.
IMG_3612.JPG
 
JanetNJ said:
Vetsulin usually peaked for me at 5 hours post shot. Sometimes 6 hours past. Either way your cat is in safe numbers. The danger number on a human meter is 50.... I'd say a 96 is PERFECT. It's exactly what you want to see. Numbers below 120 on a human meter but above 50 is the healing range. This is where your cats body can heal it's pancreas! Don't be afraid of green numbers. 150 is the top range of normal on a pet meter, (68-150), but a little bit high for a human meter. I use a pet meter and always aimed to get my lowest point about 85 -90.
Click to expand...
he's on a really high dosage. he was having such high glucose he was having seizures. bad ones. the vet i was taking him to was terrible but i dind't realize it.

they started him at 2u twice a day. at the time i couldn't check his sugar at all. months later, after they claimed he had epilepsy and blamed the seizures on that i finally got him testing and was getting readings of nearly 600.

After awhile I got him stabilized but had to give him 10u twice daily. the new vet had me cut him down to 9 saying 'i know it's not much' to which i replied "reducing his medicine 10% is a good bit to me" and I was happy.

Now i normally get readings between 85 and 100 at 5 to 6 hours. But it's VERY hard to test him.

for one he's big, very big, and very strong. he's fat, but still a large cat too. 21 pounds. he has never let me even touch his ears. if I try more than a couple times he'll get off my lap, or off the floor and leave.

I tried several weeks to gently massage them during his cuddle times but to no avail. he just simple does not want his ears or feet touched, PERIOD.

The only time I can get him is if I'm lucky enough to get the blood drop on the first or second poke. Which i usually can, but that's if I can get him to sit still long enough. Even then it's hard for me to keep him calm enough to get the meter up there when i do get the blood.

I'm using a human lancet, i'm type II myself so i use my meter for him. I'm pretty good at getting the blood if I can keep him calm for the 10 seconds it takes to get it. but it's rare i can do that
 
by the way, my signature says we're weaning him off the phenobarbital. that's been complete for a couple months. I got him off no problem by doing micro reductions a week at a time. i'm VERY happy he's off. they kept him groggy and off balance
 
johnt said:
he's on a really high dosage. he was having such high glucose he was having seizures. bad ones. the vet i was taking him to was terrible but i dind't realize it.

they started him at 2u twice a day. at the time i couldn't check his sugar at all. months later, after they claimed he had epilepsy and blamed the seizures on that i finally got him testing and was getting readings of nearly 600.

After awhile I got him stabilized but had to give him 10u twice daily. the new vet had me cut him down to 9 saying 'i know it's not much' to which i replied "reducing his medicine 10% is a good bit to me" and I was happy.

Now i normally get readings between 85 and 100 at 5 to 6 hours. But it's VERY hard to test him.

for one he's big, very big, and very strong. he's fat, but still a large cat too. 21 pounds. he has never let me even touch his ears. if I try more than a couple times he'll get off my lap, or off the floor and leave.

I tried several weeks to gently massage them during his cuddle times but to no avail. he just simple does not want his ears or feet touched, PERIOD.

The only time I can get him is if I'm lucky enough to get the blood drop on the first or second poke. Which i usually can, but that's if I can get him to sit still long enough. Even then it's hard for me to keep him calm enough to get the meter up there when i do get the blood.

I'm using a human lancet, i'm type II myself so i use my meter for him. I'm pretty good at getting the blood if I can keep him calm for the 10 seconds it takes to get it. but it's rare i can do that
Click to expand...
You'll have an easier time with a 28 gauge lancet. If he's squirming then flick the drop onto the back of your nail and test it from there.
 
yeah i know but there's an issue. Well several. he's EXTREMELY finicky. to the point i have to give him tiny bits of tuna to get him to eat to give him his shot. i refuse to dose him without knowing he's eating.

I'm actually worried about taking him off the w/d because of how difficult it is to test him and I know if I can get it it will drastically lower his BG.

The other problem, i have two other cats. When i put wilbur on W/D i had to switch all the cats because they graze and I couldn't leave other food out. I pay $67 every 4 weeks to feed them because of this. it's awful.

I tried testing him on cooked chicken and he wouldn't even look at it. If I switch them to timed feedings all around and move them to wet it would drastically change things. I don't think one of my cats would make the transition. she's also very finicky. the last one would eat asphalt if i fed it to her. she was an abandoned cat that had a disease in her mouth and nearly died before I took her in and got her surgery. So she's happy to eat anything. i think strays are much easier to change because they're used to eating what they can find.

All that being said, i guess as long as i keep him at ideal BG levels it's OK, but i'd sure like to get him off those high doses and get him on wet food. I tried hills wet but i'd need to get another job if I fed them all that way. FAR too expensive.

So i don't know quite how to proceed.

As for the lancet, i didn't know this, i will be getting those for sure. I use the little clicker for myself (although i've got mine under control through diet/exercise) so for him I just take the bare lancet out and poke with that. I will find those bigger lancets though
 
johnt said:
yeah i know but there's an issue. Well several. he's EXTREMELY finicky. to the point i have to give him tiny bits of tuna to get him to eat to give him his shot. i refuse to dose him without knowing he's eating.

I'm actually worried about taking him off the w/d because of how difficult it is to test him and I know if I can get it it will drastically lower his BG.

The other problem, i have two other cats. When i put wilbur on W/D i had to switch all the cats because they graze and I couldn't leave other food out. I pay $67 every 4 weeks to feed them because of this. it's awful.

I tried testing him on cooked chicken and he wouldn't even look at it. If I switch them to timed feedings all around and move them to wet it would drastically change things. I don't think one of my cats would make the transition. she's also very finicky. the last one would eat asphalt if i fed it to her. she was an abandoned cat that had a disease in her mouth and nearly died before I took her in and got her surgery. So she's happy to eat anything. i think strays are much easier to change because they're used to eating what they can find.

All that being said, i guess as long as i keep him at ideal BG levels it's OK, but i'd sure like to get him off those high doses and get him on wet food. I tried hills wet but i'd need to get another job if I fed them all that way. FAR too expensive.

So i don't know quite how to proceed.

As for the lancet, i didn't know this, i will be getting those for sure. I use the little clicker for myself (although i've got mine under control through diet/exercise) so for him I just take the bare lancet out and poke with that. I will find those bigger lancets though
Click to expand...
Many of us feed Friskies or Fancy Feast pates to our diabetic cats. Avoid the sauce/gravy types because they're too high in carbs.
 
yeah i do, it's in my signature. but over time I find he's eating less and less.

In fact, just to get him to actually eat it and not just lick, i bought a hand blender and mix 1 to 1 water/pate then he laps it up. but he's all but stopped eating it
 
Ok so here's my update. It's time for his dose. his BG is 193. I went ahead and gave it to him, but I reduced it from 9u to 8u figuring since he's not eating much right now at all I shouldn't give him too much. I am AMAZED i got him to test, but he's not feeling well, he threw up twice last night and I can just tell he's not in good spirits.

Hoping I can test him again in 6 hours. Does that sound like the right time frame?
 
johnt said:
Ok so here's my update. It's time for his dose. his BG is 193. I went ahead and gave it to him, but I reduced it from 9u to 8u figuring since he's not eating much right now at all I shouldn't give him too much. I am AMAZED i got him to test, but he's not feeling well, he threw up twice last night and I can just tell he's not in good spirits.

Hoping I can test him again in 6 hours. Does that sound like the right time frame?
Click to expand...
193 is not a bad number. However, vomiting, not eating and reduced or no insulin can tip them in some serious complications like diabetic ketoacidosis and/or hepatic lipidosis fairly quickly.
 
johnt said:
Ok so here's my update. It's time for his dose. his BG is 193. I went ahead and gave it to him, but I reduced it from 9u to 8u figuring since he's not eating much right now at all I shouldn't give him too much. I am AMAZED i got him to test, but he's not feeling well, he threw up twice last night and I can just tell he's not in good spirits.

Hoping I can test him again in 6 hours. Does that sound like the right time frame?
Click to expand...

If it were me, I wouldn't wait that long, I'd try to test him by +3 or +4, especially if he's not eating well. Vetsulin hits quickly, and it needs food to work on it.

Has your vet ever tested him for pancreatitis? Does he show signs of nausea (lip licking, turning away from food)? Does he ever "meatloaf", where he sits with all his legs folded under him so that he's in the shape of a meatloaf?
 
He's always meatloafed. both him and his sister have. since they were little. He doesn't lick his lips but last night he turned away. he doesn't throw up often and when he does he doesn't eat normally for a little bit. he ate a little bit before I gave him the shot, but I'll test him again at +3 or +4.

i'm taking him in to the vet on Tuesday for a fructosamine (sp?). that should help. but I wonder if it will do any good if he's not eating normal. when this happens it's usually short lived. if he's still having a rough time I can take him in later today

EDIT: this came on in the early evening last night. he was perfectly normal until maybe 6pm
 
OK better feeling. I gave him some lean treats and he ate those up (just a little). then he went to his little soup i always make him and he's eating. i feel a lot better now

this is pretty normal. eats a little TINY bit of tuna (half a teaspoon) then he comes in to his room and eats some of the soup, or his dry food.

So he's coming around a little. I also monitor his peeing and he's doing that normal so we're ok there. i clean all 3 litter boxes twice a day and as anyone that has multiple cats knows, you can tell which 'stuff' is who's in the box.
 
If you scroll down this page

http://www.ibdkitties.net/pancreatitis/

It will show the difference between a kitty sitting in a "comfy" meatloaf position and sitting in a "pain" meatloaf position.

The fact that he is not interested in eating is a potential sign of pancreatitis. If it is pancreatitis this needs to be dealt with by a vet with sub q fluids, anti-nausea meds and pain relief. If a kitty is not eating for any period of time it can put a strain on the liver which can lead to hepatic issues such as fatty liver.


ETA I have a kitty who suffers from chronic pancreatitis and will have the occasional full blown episode. He never throws up, but the warning signs are for him to be refusing food ( he is a food hog) and turning away from the food dish.
 
johnt said:
Oh he's definitely not doing the 'pain' loaf. he was doing his normal one where he folds his feet under him

I edited my post. he ate really good just now
Click to expand...


That is good to hear. ;) Not eating is a definite red flag. It would be prudent to get some tests in to keep track on how low the insulin is taking him though
 
correct. I was going to take him today if he didn't eat. He started feeling odd about 6pm. this hasn't been very long, but i have always kept a really close eye on him.

Also, when he's sick he'll vomit 5 or 6 times. last night he only did the one, then a couple steps and another. that was it. So it wasn't bad, I over worry, but figure over worrying is better than neglecting and he's my little buddy that stays close to me 24/7 so i try hard to help him
 
That's good. Pancreatitis is definitely something to keep in the back of your mind with a cat who has an inconsistent/iffy appetite. There's a quick test they can do in a vet's office (the SNAP fPL) that gives a yes-no.

I'd still recommend getting some tests in at +3 or +4-- given that he started at 193 and you gave 8U of Vetsulin, you don't have a large margin of error.
 
right. well he's down from 10u three months ago to 9u this is the first time I've ever given him as low as 8. but i was concerned. I'll see if he'll let me test him at 3+. he cringed just now when i went to pet him thinking i was going to do it again.
 
johnt said:
Oh no, much worse. i can't even tickle his paw pads.
Click to expand...

Yep! My kitty would be the same way, just figured I'd ask (I'm totally jealous of those with mellow kitties that let them do the paw pad-- it definitely looks like an easier process!).

All you can do is keep working at it. Try to make sure there are as many positive associations (treats, pets, praise) that come with the testing and the fiddling with the ears.

A couple more suggestions (you never know which one will "click" for a particular cat!): instead of the lancet device, try freehanding the poke with the lancet itself-- eliminates the scary click noise and many caregivers feel they have more control over the location of the poke.

If he's flinching, do you think his ears might be a little sore from previous pokes and attempts? Two things that really help healing: first, always apply a little gentle pressure (with a tissue) for a few seconds on the poke site afterwards to cut down on bruising. Second, apply a little bit of neosporin (or equivalent) gel (not cream) after the poking (wipe it off later).
 
Oh I don't use a device, i take the lancet itself out, take that round top off and just use it that way. I know the click would scare him, and honestly, the ear is SO thin it takes next to nothing to go all the way through.

I'll get it, but honestly I think he's ok now. he ate like he normally does. that's the part I was really worried about.
 
A lot of us use the lancing device to hold the lancet but don't click it to poke :). When I put in a new lancet I click the device so it won't click when I poke Maury. Would be more difficult for me to try and just hold the little lancet.
 
John... when I first started home testing it was just a dismal mess...I was in tears and my kitty was howling and growling. With setting up a regular test spot and spending time just having him sit there and get loved on and of course a bit of a treat, we both learned to relax. After a couple of weeks he would just come to the test spot and sit and purr when I tested or did the shots. I NEVER would have even dreamed it would come to that. :D Some kitties are harder to deal with than others, but over time they can learn to accept the testing/shooting as a normal part of their routine. :bighug::bighug:
 
Deb & Wink said:
Actually, the dry W/D is 25% carb, per Dr. Lisa Piersons newly revised food chart, see page 61.
http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
Click to expand...


Even worse!!! The only problem with removing the HC dry food as Janet is suggesting, is that John is not able to home test Wilbur on a consistent basis. If dry food is being removed or cut back a lot then home testing needs to be done to keep an eye on the numbers, which could very well drop a lot when the dry is removed.
 
ugh 250@ 3.5 hours

thoughts? is it possible it just hasn't brought it down all the way yet?
 
Hmmmm.... not a Vetsulin expert at all, but that is interesting. As far as I know, the Vetsulin should be active by now, and so you would normally expect to see lower numbers from the preshot.

Here's what I'm thinking: the 193 at pre-shot may have been already on the way up from a much lower number sometime during the night. There is a phenomenon we call "bouncing", in which a cat's body reacts to lower-than-usual numbers by "panicking" and releasing a bunch of glucose from liver stores. Basically, if a cat has gotten used to high diabetic BG numbers for a while, even numbers in the 100's might look "too low"-- that's not even close to hypoglycemic in reality, but if a cat has been hanging out in the 400's-500's for a while, it might seem like it to them.

So, if the numbers were already on the way up (and with bouncing, they can go waaay up), the insulin may be countering that and bringing them down, but (so far) only as far as 250.

That's my guess, I'll be interested to see if any of the Vetsulin people have additional opinions.
 
johnt said:
Hi @Deb & Wink That chart says
Wet only - no dry food is listed 2017
on every page. can you clarify?
Click to expand...
Hi John,

Typed the wrong thing. The wet is 25% carbs, but the dry W/d is even higher in carbs, roughly 35-37% range. Hill's website says 36.7%. See here.

The Hills W/d dry and wet foods are what my sugar kitty Wink was eating on advice from the shelter vet, before I took him in from the shelter. His numbers were in the 300+ range. As soon as I was able to transition him to low carb canned food, mainly the Fancy Feast pate styles, Wink went OTJ and has been off insulin for four years now.

Wink was a dry food addict and it took about 6 weeks to completely transition him. It was not at all easy to transition from dry to wet and took patience and persistence. I used probably every trick in the article by vet Dr. Lisa Pierson on Transitioning Dry Food Addicts. I also had to feed Wink in a separate room from my other kitties.

It was worth it though.

CAUTION: I had to drop Wink's insulin fast and furious as the switch to lower carb food meant he didn't need as much insulin. I did this while home testing Wink's BG levels.
 
Wink is a very finicky eater too. I would have a smorgasbord of flavors down for him to try, 2-3 at a time. Four years ago, he decided he loved the Fancy Feast Turkey and Giblets flavor. For the last 6 months, he refuses to touch it.
 
i am going to try figuring out that Dr Peirson article and see if I can do this. I've been wanting him off dry food for years.

WIsh me luck! I can't do this until i speak with my vet and let him guide me but it's going to get done
 
man oh man, reading this transition document I can tell right now this is going to be a rough period. Wilbur, Tinker and Pickle have had dry food feeders all day 24/7 their entire lives (well Pickle i brought in as a stray but in the 5 years I've had her).

I am really worried about this, but I'm also determined.

The part i'm worried about more than anything is testing wilbur. I tested him 3 times in the last 24 hours. the most BY FAR in a one day period. he runs from me on site now
 
johnt said:
man oh man, reading this transition document I can tell right now this is going to be a rough period. Wilbur, Tinker and Pickle have had dry food feeders all day 24/7 their entire lives (well Pickle i brought in as a stray but in the 5 years I've had her).

I am really worried about this, but I'm also determined.

The part i'm worried about more than anything is testing wilbur. I tested him 3 times in the last 24 hours. the most BY FAR in a one day period. he runs from me on site now
Click to expand...
there are a few dry foods under 10 %. Evo cat and kitten in the purple bag and my favorite Young Again Zero carb. Youngagainpetfood.com. You can leave Young Again Zero carb out all the time.
 
OK hang on a sec. Sorry for continuing to spam

I was trying to find something on carbs on other cat food. according to what i just read, meow mix kitten formula has less carbs than hills prescription diet w/d?? how is that even possible? This doc says 30% and honestly the seafood medly isn't much worse
JanetNJ said:
there are a few dry foods under 10 %. Evo cat and kitten in the purple bag and my favorite Young Again Zero carb. Youngagainpetfood.com. You can leave Young Again Zero carb out all the time.
Click to expand...
That's interesting. It's not much more expensive than what I'm paying for the Hills w/d

I think that would be a good start. Based on the document the first thing i need to do is stop free feeding and make sure WIlbur is 21 pounds soi based on the formula I need to make sure he's gettin 300 calories per day so if the EVO is 612 calories per cup I can only feed him a half a cup per day? he is NOT going to like that, I can assure you

One good thing here is i am very stubborn. once I make my mind up to do something i do it. this is going to take some time though because I can't just instantly drop him massively. With the difficulty I have testing him I am really worried about the initial transition
 
johnt said:
OK hang on a sec. Sorry for continuing to spam

I was trying to find something on carbs on other cat food. according to what i just read, meow mix kitten formula has less carbs than hills prescription diet w/d?? how is that even possible? This doc says 30% and honestly the seafood medly isn't much worse

That's interesting. It's not much more expensive than what I'm paying for the Hills w/d

I think that would be a good start. Based on the document the first thing i need to do is stop free feeding and make sure WIlbur is 21 pounds soi based on the formula I need to make sure he's gettin 300 calories per day so if the EVO is 612 calories per cup I can only feed him a half a cup per day? he is NOT going to like that, I can assure you

One good thing here is i am very stubborn. once I make my mind up to do something i do it. this is going to take some time though because I can't just instantly drop him massively. With the difficulty I have testing him I am really worried about the initial transition
Click to expand...
One thing I can tell you about young again, and Evo as well, it's that because it's higher in calories and nutrient dense they tend to eat less of it. I don't measure it out as all my cats are free feeders. I just put a few bowls of it around.
 
johnt said:
OK hang on a sec. Sorry for continuing to spam

I was trying to find something on carbs on other cat food. according to what i just read, meow mix kitten formula has less carbs than hills prescription diet w/d?? how is that even possible? This doc says 30% and honestly the seafood medly isn't much worse

That's interesting. It's not much more expensive than what I'm paying for the Hills w/d

I think that would be a good start. Based on the document the first thing i need to do is stop free feeding and make sure WIlbur is 21 pounds soi based on the formula I need to make sure he's gettin 300 calories per day so if the EVO is 612 calories per cup I can only feed him a half a cup per day? he is NOT going to like that, I can assure you

One good thing here is i am very stubborn. once I make my mind up to do something i do it. this is going to take some time though because I can't just instantly drop him massively. With the difficulty I have testing him I am really worried about the initial transition
Click to expand...
W/d isn't the prescription diabetic food, it's for "weight management". Although for the most part most prescription foods are no better nutritionally than anything you could get in a store.
 
johnt said:
The only time I can get him is if I'm lucky enough to get the blood drop on the first or second poke. Which i usually can, but that's if I can get him to sit still long enough. Even then it's hard for me to keep him calm enough to get the meter up there when i do get the blood
Click to expand...


some people use their nail to scoop up the blood rather than putting meter to the ear. perhaps you can try sticking and collecting the blood in one movement so you aren't spending as much time near his ear.
 
JanetNJ said:
One thing I can tell you about young again, and Evo as well, it's that because it's higher in calories and nutrient dense they tend to eat less of it. I don't measure it out as all my cats are free feeders. I just put a few bowls of it around.
Click to expand...

because Young Again Zero has only 1% carb, BG can drop precipitously so be sure you are able to test. i just started using YA and ordered a flavour enhancer from them. perhaps this enhancer would be useful for you to encourage Wilbur to eat. i'm planning to use it to make healthy no carb treats because my girl won't eat any of the bought ones and won't eat plain meat raw or cooked unless it's mice ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top