Java, elder cat

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Better safe than sorry!

And I know how you feel - I look at all the red on Hermione's ss the past few days, and think it would look a lot nicer if the barely-reds were almost-pink instead ;)
 
I did, .02, which was fine. I just gave him a third dose ever, .02 for tonight. He was uncomfortable and tense before, now is very relaxed. Before bed, he's eaten, drunk, peed, walked to BR and got up in bed by himself. Yay!
It seemed like this afternoon's vitamin B shot helped his legs by this evening. It could be.
The Zobaline is little pink pills.
I wondered about cutting FF in favor of YA, if it'd level out the BG/ insulin. But. He'll eat FF when offered almost always, but not so YA. At his age, having him eat is, well, I'm so grateful that he will. The bupe makes him hungry.
I'm thinking bupe at night only, see if that's sensible or if he needs it twice a day.
I'll be gone +.5-2, and +5-7 tomorrow. Best stick with fat 1 I think?
 
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I'm glad he's responding well to a lower dose of bupe. If he's comfortable, eating (etc.) well, going out to enjoy his walkabouts and so on I think that's very good for an elderly kitty. Your goal is symptom management, not reversal of aging.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I'm glad he's responding well to a lower dose of bupe. If he's comfortable, eating (etc.) well, going out to enjoy his walkabouts and so on I think that's very good for an elderly kitty. Your goal is symptom management, not reversal of aging.
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I wish I could reverse aging of course. Last night was amputee friend's birthday dinner, talking to her about her own pain and dealing with her sick kitty, who had to be put down about 6 months ago, was helpful.
 
Using the carb calculation from Elizabeth Hodgkins book, I'm coming out with smartbites hairball control treats at 138%.
Protein 29 + 19 fat +6.5 fiber+ 11 moisture =65.5. 100-65.5 = 34.5
34.5 / .25= 138% carb. That seems wrong. Same calc method = FF liver chicken 10% carb,. Chicken 6%, seafood 6%
Anyway, Zobaline hidden in 3 hairball treats with 2 decoy treats worked! Pill pockets don't work, I wanted to try this before using the pill gun.
1.25 U.
 
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Yong said:
I made a carb calculator in my signature. Based off Dr. Lisa's formulas. Calculations aren't exact of course =)
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Is the dry matter = carbs?
Who is Dr. Lisa?
I read her book, but found this googling, here's her website about diabetic cats by Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM Esquire.
http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com
She used to work for Purina, and came to see that dry food was terrible for felines. She's quite the advocate against dry food now, well, carbs to be particular.
 
Dr. Lisa Pierson, catinfo.org. Yes the dry carb, should be highlighted a color depending on the number. Just realized I didn't add a key to the colours :rolleyes: but they're based off our SS colours.
 
Just feel the need to interject here. Dr. Hodgkins is quite correct that dry food is bad for cats. HOWEVER, the rest of her protocol is not something that we advocate or agree with here. She states that a cat CANNOT go hypo if on a wet food only diet, which as we all know, is incorrect. She even says that you should not feed syrup or honey if your cat has a BG of 30...incredibly dangerous advice. From what I understand she is no longer associated with YDC.

We've had folks come here following her protocol and while that is a choice each owner needs to make, we have let them know we cannot advise them on it here as it is a very dangerous protocol to follow. I recommend going to catinfo.org and checking out what Dr. Lisa has to say about food and feeding...but Dr. Hodgkins' protocol is not one I would spend any time on for the health of your cat.
 
Rachel said:
Just feel the need to interject here. Dr. Hodgkins is quite correct that dry food is bad for cats. HOWEVER, the rest of her protocol is not something that we advocate or agree with here. She states that a cat CANNOT go hypo if on a wet food only diet, which as we all know, is incorrect. She even says that you should not feed syrup or honey if your cat has a BG of 30...incredibly dangerous advice. From what I understand she is no longer associated with YDC.

We've had folks come here following her protocol and while that is a choice each owner needs to make, we have let them know we cannot advise them on it here as it is a very dangerous protocol to follow. I recommend going to catinfo.org and checking out what Dr. Lisa has to say about food and feeding...but Dr. Hodgkins' protocol is not one I would spend any time on for the health of your cat.
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I did know that, in more general terms. Certainly her book gave me encouragement to try adjusting Java's doses to his BG readings for the first few months, and that was a huge failure.
Okay have to test the boy and run to chorus.

P.S. what is YDC?
 
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Lois and Java said:
I did know that, in more general terms. Certainly her book gave me encouragement to try adjusting Java's doses to his BG readings for the first few months, and that was a huge failure.
Okay have to test the boy and run to chorus.

P.S. what is YDC?
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YDC = Your Diabetic Cat
 
Lois and Java said:
Kris, what do you think of the SS? Stick with 1.25 for a week or more, yes?
Have you heard of The Spoon Theory of disability? Java's looks like he's out of spoons for today. He went outside several times, but he really sticks close to the house now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory
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Yes, try the 1.25 u dose to see where it gets you. I know all about the Spoon Theory - I function on very few spoons most days ...
 
Hi, Java had an increase from a fat 1 to 1.25 this am. His BG reading at +11 is low compared to what it normally is around PMPS. It's now one hour earlier than today's am shot and last night p.m. shot - I was going to shift earlier and give him bupe after his shot, but I don't have to, and think 1.25 is too much. Wait an hour and re-test? See if it goes to magenta? Is 1.25 too much from magenta?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Yes, try the 1.25 u dose to see where it gets you. I know all about the Spoon Theory - I function on very few spoons most days ...
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I'm sorry about the spoons. That's rough.
Worried (surprise!) at how low it is compared to how high PMPS has been. I am at +11 but wanted to shift earlier. Not sure about sticking to 1.25 with yellow.
 
You hold the syringe. If you are worried and can't monitor you could give a fat 1 unit or a skinny 1.25 units. It might give him a higher AMPS like he's had the last few days. I have the same issues. Until you see where he goes with a yellow or pink preshot is hard to tell what might be too much or too little. I had the same issue this afternoon but after 20 minute stall (while trying to decide a dose) he went up a lot so I shot the higher dose. You could stall to see if he hits pink. The 1.25 could be lasting longer or causing a longer surf. Usually if I'm too nervous I shoot the lower or at least make sure I monitor closely.
 
On pm 3/3 he got a fat 1 unit on a 303 preshot and had blues. So I think he'd be safe o with a fat 1 unit if you're to nervous about the 1.25... He had bupe that night too.
 
StephG said:
On pm 3/3 he got a fat 1 unit on a 303 preshot and had blues. So I think he'd be safe o with a fat 1 unit if you're to nervous about the 1.25... He had bupe that night too.
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Thank you StephG.
Wow it went up almost 70 points in one hour! I wasn't expecting that.
I feel nervous about 1.25, it's new, it's night, he'll have bupe, which is pretty new; going with a fat 1 and testing at +2, and at least once during the night.
 
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Lois and Java said:
I'm sorry about the spoons. That's rough.
Worried (surprise!) at how low it is compared to how high PMPS has been. I am at +11 but wanted to shift earlier. Not sure about sticking to 1.25 with yellow.
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You could try the 1.25 u because that yellow is almost a pink. However, if a fat 1 u is more comfortable, go with that.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
You could try the 1.25 u because that yellow is almost a pink. However, if a fat 1 u is more comfortable, go with that.
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Dark o clock here, 408, into red already, and back to sleep we all go for some hours, what'll it be at amps! I was surprised at that gain in one hour. I sure could've gone with the 1.25.
Am going to get a pill pocket from neighbour with 6 cats tomorrow am, try that with Zobaline, easier than carving out a hollow center in fiber treats, tho good to know that works. The way he eats, better to pill to be sure he gets all the Z.
 
Java is so frail and tottery today.
Edit -- I came in to check on him, carrying a bowl of steamed broccoli, and he perked right up and came over to me immediately. He was always interested in people food and would try anything, trusting that if I was eating it, it was worth a taste.
So he had a little bowl of his own of steamed broccoli.
 
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Just keep on with the routine, Lois. He'll have his ups and downs as a very senior kitty. If a tiny dose of bupe helps, don't be afraid to use it. I'm glad you have more helpers on here for times when I'm away from my computer. :)
 
Thanks Kris, hi, yes, I'm grateful for it, believe me. And for the SS, now that there's more info.
Dark o clock again. I was reading about pain meds for cats and gabapentin was mentioned. It's a fantastic drug, I took it during shingles, it was the only thing that worked. It's for nerve pain. Seems like it'd be better than an opiod like buprenorphine for hind leg neuropathy in particular.
If I want to ask if people have experience with it, need to put in main board? Maybe I'll try a ? here.
 
Lois and Java said:
Thanks Kris, hi, yes, I'm grateful for it, believe me. And for the SS, now that there's more info.
Dark o clock again. I was reading about pain meds for cats and gabapentin was mentioned. It's a fantastic drug, I took it during shingles, it was the only thing that worked. It's for nerve pain. Seems like it'd be better than an opiod like buprenorphine for hind leg neuropathy in particular.
If I want to ask if people have experience with it, need to put in main board? Maybe I'll try a ? here.
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I'd post on the main board to get more eyes on it. I've seen posts where people say it can be sedating too. I have no experience with it.
 
Yep, I post about things like that on Main and here...that way you can get plenty of eyes on it.
 
So I picked up some Gabapentin. It turns out to be one of those things like aspirin that's super cheap, which is awesome. I have to dissolve contents of a 100mg capsule in water, draw 25 mg dose once per day. Vet said he looked up dosing and it's all over the place, from 25r mg bid to 100 mg after surgery. Java's been sensitive so far, let's hope this is a good dose. He does look awfully knocked out, oh heck, have I jumped in with too high dosing again? I hope not. I'll change photo to how he is right now.
 
Lois and Java said:
So I picked up some Gabapentin. It turns out to be one of those things like aspirin that's super cheap, which is awesome. I have to dissolve contents of a 100mg capsule in water, draw 25 mg dose once per day. Vet said he looked up dosing and it's all over the place, from 25r mg bid to 100 mg after surgery. Java's been sensitive so far, let's hope this is a good dose. He does look awfully knocked out, oh heck, have I jumped in with too high dosing again? I hope not. I'll change photo to how he is right now.
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Elderly cat = small dose. Same with elderly people. I hope this helps him. At least you'l be able to compare its action to bupe's.
 
My old Vet gave us Gabapentin for our dog (she lives with my parents, along with Maury's "sister") and she told us if we use it, don't just stop but ween her off it. Same applies to kitties:

Side Effects and Contraindications
Usually well tolerated by cats, gabapentin does have potential side effects that include lethargy and odd movements or loss of coordination, especially while walking. Some cats might experience diarrhea. It shouldn't be prescribed for pregnant or lactating cats, or for those with kidney or liver disease. If your cat also receives antacids while on the medication, they can reduce gabapentin's efficacy. Give these different medications to your cat at least two hours apart. If your cat receives other potent painkillers, such as morphine, that might increase the drug's punch but also make side effects more likely. Cats should be weaned off the medication, not stopped abruptly.
Site: http://pets.thenest.com/cat-gabapentin-9943.html
 
Yong, do you think this applies after he's had one dose?
I've been working in the yard all day. Took Java out to see the changes, he drank some fresh cold water, looked around, watched some of the dogs being walked, tottered back, he and Lily are asleep next to each other.
My wish with the Gabapentin is that it gives him more strength in his legs, because they don't hurt... Which we don't know if they do, but humans' do. You guys know that, sorry, tired. I'm going to go lie down with the cats.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I think you said that you had to dissolve the gabapentin in water, right? Why not make a much more dilute solution and give him a tiny dose of that?
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Either that or admit it was a dumb failed experiment that I shouldn't have tried on my poor cat's body chemistry in the first place. And put my attention on waking up and doing the things that I know are good, like taking up food before a bg test. So tired last night and I found a dish of food this am that wasn't up, that he probably got into, look how high BG, that's *much* more damaging/ less helpful. Argh. He's in a sort of hidden but sunny spot this morning, very tottery, a day of gabapentin stupor did not help that.
 
Lois and Java said:
Either that or admit it was a dumb failed experiment that I shouldn't have tried on my poor cat's body chemistry in the first place. And put my attention on waking up and doing the things that I know are good, like taking up food before a bg test. So tired last night and I found a dish of food this am that wasn't up, that he probably got into, look how high BG, that's *much* more damaging/ less helpful. Argh. He's in a sort of hidden but sunny spot this morning, very tottery, a day of gabapentin stupor did not help that.
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Your call on the pain meds. It's great that he gets to enjoy outdoor time safely. Mine would love that!
 
I didn't like the fence when neighbor put up on 2 sides, now I'm grateful for it. Skunks, raccoons, etc, deer can still walk through. We have coyotes; treating them as if they are crepuscular and nocturnal is strategy most of us cat lovers in nabe have adopted. Lots of dogs are walked past my house, a good thing. Java is nearly deaf now, I'm almost always out there with him. I tried locking them in all day a few years ago after spate of 4-6 am cat kills, Java literally tore my window screens apart, would climb double hung windows open only at top, claw his way out, jump to ground outside. Now that he's impaired, he's sensible - tho' he's always been sensible. He goes inside fruit tree cages to sleep, or under an outdoor chaise, or behind a plant stand, or next to fence with it at his back. He used to sleep on the roof next to the chimney, then would jump up on the chimney and sleep on top of it as the roof cooled, but bricks stayed warm. Heart attacks at first but I just had to trust him. (Am I the only one who's chatty?) Love to hear why you can't let yours out.
 
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When he was little, and until he was in his middle age, he would go on walks with me all over neighborhood. This was before coyotes. We would only go out after 10 or 11 o'clock at night, when the dog walkers were done. He would stay with me, and we would literally walk around for about a half mile. He's such a good cat. I got to know one neighbor who lives several blocks over because he was the only one who would be working in his yard after 11 o'clock at night. That was before I was on the neighborhood association board, back in the day, and got to know a lot of people in the neighborhood.
 
Lois and Java said:
I didn't like the fence when neighbor put up on 2 sides, now I'm grateful for it. Skunks, raccoons, etc, deer can still walk through. We have coyotes; treating them as if they are crepuscular and nocturnal is strategy most of us cat lovers in nabe have adopted. Lots of dogs are walked past my house, a good thing. Java is nearly deaf now, I'm almost always out there with him. I tried locking them in all day a few years ago after spate of 4-6 am cat kills, Java literally tore my window screens apart, would climb double hung windows open only at top, claw his way out, jump to ground outside. Now that he's impaired, he's sensible - tho' he's always been sensible. He goes inside fruit tree cages to sleep, or under an outdoor chaise, or behind a plant stand, or next to fence with it at his back. He used to sleep on the roof next to the chimney, then would jump up on the chimney and sleep on top of it as the roof cooled, but bricks stayed warm. Heart attacks at first but I just had to trust him. (Am I the only one who's chatty?) Love to hear why you can't let yours out.
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I live in a fifth floor condo and taking all three out to the small grassy area behind the building isn't workable for me. I live near the centre of the city.
 
My friend who had the sarcoma in her arm is on the third floor of a condo and her neighbors' cats come to visit her. The cats get to go out in the hall, that's their exploration.
 
Yong, I finally found it and figured out how to post this. It's the calculation sheet from Elizabeth Hodgkins. I am the least mathy person you'll ever meet. Would you be willing to check my math on the carb value of the fiber treats? Data above?
Edit: I was wrong about him not eating pill pockets, so this is somewhat academic, so no worries if you're not interested. I am just curious if I did the math right!
 

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Lois and Java said:
My friend who had the sarcoma in her arm is on the third floor of a condo and her neighbors' cats come to visit her. The cats get to go out in the hall, that's their exploration.
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Teasel runs out into the hall occasionally when I open the door but he doesn't stay there long. I also don't want to break any of the condo rules about pets running loose in common areas.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Teasel runs out into the hall occasionally when I open the door but he doesn't stay there long. I also don't want to break any of the condo rules about pets running loose in common areas.
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My friend Sally used to live on the second or third floor of a condo in Oakland, and one of her cats fell off balcony onto the ground below. He lived through it, but he wasn't 100% unharmed. I'm forgetting the details. Java's not the only one getting old!
 
After yesterday's 5 a.m. awakening to research gabapentin and running to the vet first thing in the morning, then let supply errands, followed by yard work all afternoon... couch time this am. Teasel grows where I grew up in Western PA, and I just looked it up in Google and found this really interesting thing about teasel root and Lyme disease. http://www.tiredoflyme.com/teasel-root.html
My best friends in the neighborhood are Sarah and Daniel, of the six cats. Used to be seven. Phoenix and Java used to fight all the time. They couldn't keep Phoenix inside, and we couldn't keep Phoenix out of Java's yard, probably because I'm on a hill with a view of neighborhood goings-on. Phoenix was bigger and Java usually got beaten up, although at some point Phoenix lost an eye. Anyway, Daniel has lyme disease that comes and goes. I'll have to tell him. Another of my oldest friends goes back to when Java used to go up the hill behind me and beat up her cat Spalding.
 
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