Buddy's SS up and going 4th part about dosing

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Good job making the new thread! There's so much to learn around here, isn't there? Hang in there with the bouncing - Buddy (and you) are going to be okay. It just takes a little while to work itself out. Sending you and Buddy lots of love!
 
Djamila said:
Good job making the new thread! There's so much to learn around here, isn't there? Hang in there with the bouncing - Buddy (and you) are going to be okay. It just takes a little while to work itself out. Sending you and Buddy lots of love!
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Thank you so much!!! We wish you and your kitties well.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Not a surprise after no shot this AM. You could try 2.5 u again because he's high but if that worries you, go down to 2.25 u or even 2 u. Your call.
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Do you think with his numbers being high 2.5 u would probably work tonight, or do you think it would not make a difference.
 
wolfey said:
Do you think with his numbers being high 2.5 u would probably work tonight, or do you think it would not make a difference.
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I can't say for sure. I think 2.5 u isn't too high because his BG is elevated from bouncing. I suggested the lower doses in case you're reluctant to try 2.5 u.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I see that you went with 2.25 u. Maybe try for two tests this evening? He'll probably be a bit high.
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I am a coward and I did not see your post saying that you did not think 250 would be too high because his BG was elevated until just now and it is 9:29 p.m. I gave his insulin at 7:05 p.m. He has ate several time this evening, the last time was like 8:15, so if I wait 2 hrs,, I will get in 1 test. However, I usually set the clock and get up to check his numbers.
 
You're not a coward! You're concerned for your baby...and it's really hard when you're dealing with it yourself. Even though we're here for you, it's tough because we're not right there next to you. Trust me, I know how it feels. It's so scary when you're alone with nothing but voices on the internet helping out.
 
Rachel said:
You're not a coward! You're concerned for your baby...and it's really hard when you're dealing with it yourself. Even though we're here for you, it's tough because we're not right there next to you. Trust me, I know how it feels. It's so scary when you're alone with nothing but voices on the internet helping out.
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I don't sometimes know exactly what needs to be done, experience will help with that. This morning I find myself not knowing what to do, his numbers need to come down but not to 50. Kris explained a bounce and what was going on, I was going to print it out, but naturally my printer would not print. I spent most of yesterday evening trying to get my printer to work.
 
wolfey said:
I don't sometimes know exactly what needs to be done, experience will help with that. This morning I find myself not knowing what to do, his numbers need to come down but not to 50. Kris explained a bounce and what was going on, I was going to print it out, but naturally my printer would not print. I spent most of yesterday evening trying to get my printer to work.
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You're too hard on yourself, Teresa. This is a hard disease for kitty owners. We do what we can do and learn along the way. I'm sorry that your printer is misbehaving. Who needs that on top of kitty worry? :confused:

I see you gave him 2.25 u this AM. No need to torture his ears too much but maybe a +3 and +6 would be useful.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
You're too hard on yourself, Teresa. This is a hard disease for kitty owners. We do what we can do and learn along the way. I'm sorry that your printer is misbehaving. Who needs that on top of kitty worry? :confused:

I see you gave him 2.25 u this AM. No need to torture his ears too much but maybe a +3 and +6 would be useful.
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I will do that, what dose would you have gave. I was a little early today so I went ahead with 2.25. I want to get Buddy's numbers in check, but I just am not sure what dose to give. When he came home after sx , I had decided to give him 3u all the time. I now realize that cannot be done all the time. I do not want to call his vet about dosing questions because they always say a large amount. So I bug you instead.
 
wolfey said:
When he came home after sx , I had decided to give him 3u all the time. I now realize that cannot be done all the time.
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Now THAT is a big realization we all have to come to with feline diabetes!! :) It took me a long time to "get it" and I think there are many vets who don't get that part of treating FD. AND they often prescribe too high a dose. As is often said here, the good dose is a moving target. We're used to meds being prescribed at a certain dose for a certain condition and the dose rarely changes. Insulin doesn't work that way because it becomes part of a very complicated set of BG control processes.

The 2.25 u dose is fine in the aftermath of that green. Let's see what it does. He might be in higher numbers for a bit because of bouncing.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Now THAT is a big realization we all have to come to with feline diabetes!! :) It took me a long time to "get it" and I think there are many vets who don't get that part of treating FD. AND they often prescribe too high a dose. As is often said here, the good dose is a moving target. We're used to meds being prescribed at a certain dose for a certain condition and the dose rarely changes. Insulin doesn't work that way because it becomes part of a very complicated set of BG control processes.

The 2.25 u dose is fine in the aftermath of that green. Let's see what it does. He might be in higher numbers for a bit because of bouncing.
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I took reading @+3 -308. I am going to run out for a bit, did not do yesterday. Hope Buddy will be alright.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Saw your 2 u dose for this evening. That'll be fine. :)
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I wanted to know what you thought, but I did not want to bother you. I tried to go back and look at other post from other days, but I was not giving Buddy much of a dose until he had his surgery, that makes it harder to dose. Buddy is doing much better since he had his surgery, if I could get his BG numbers under control he would be even better. I hope I do not have a surprise (BG numbers) later tonight or in the morning. If I do I will be posting wanting help.
 
wolfey said:
I wanted to know what you thought, but I did not want to bother you. I tried to go back and look at other post from other days, but I was not giving Buddy much of a dose until he had his surgery, that makes it harder to dose. Buddy is doing much better since he had his surgery, if I could get his BG numbers under control he would be even better. I hope I do not have a surprise (BG numbers) later tonight or in the morning. If I do I will be posting wanting help.
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You're not bothering me, Teresa. It's good that you're learning to read the spreadsheet to make decisions because that will make you feel more confident. It takes time to get BG under control so muster as much patience as you can.
 
Remember that Kris and the rest of us are all here because we WANT to be. We've been in your shoes, and someone helped us. We want to be here because it's important to pay it forward. :)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
You're not bothering me, Teresa. It's good that you're learning to read the spreadsheet to make decisions because that will make you feel more confident. It takes time to get BG under control so muster as much patience as you can.
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I don't know if I am doing the right thing, Buddy's# is bouncing all over the place. It had been low now it is @ 456, if I give what I think he should have for 456, will that make him crash. Last night he ate extra amount of food, should that make a difference in his dose. Thank you Rachel I could use your opinion on dosing.
 
I believe that number is due to bouncing. When Buddy hits a lower number, he seems to bounce higher for a few cycles. I think I'd give 2.5 again (can you monitor?). If that concerns you, drop it to 2.25.

Remember that bouncing happens. Some kitties just do it a lot. We had one that bounced for 2 years until remission. Bouncing kitties will just bounce until they stop and you just try to dose around it.
 
Rachel said:
I believe that number is due to bouncing. When Buddy hits a lower number, he seems to bounce higher for a few cycles. I think I'd give 2.5 again (can you monitor?). If that concerns you, drop it to 2.25.

Remember that bouncing happens. Some kitties just do it a lot. We had one that bounced for 2 years until remission. Bouncing kitties will just bounce until they stop and you just try to dose around it.
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I know he is bouncing, just did not know what dose to give. His BG is high, but if I gave a larger dose was that going to cause more bouncing. I did not know what to do, so glad you answered. I feel comfortable with 2.50. I am almost a professional cat watcher, I will be here watching Buddy cat all day. Have a good day.
 
Professional cat watcher...man do I know what that's like!! :rolleyes:

The reason I suggested 2.5 (just so you know my thought process) is because for a few cycles now, Buddy has been in high numbers. 2.25 seems to be keeping him safe, but the hope is to get lower numbers. So when I looked at your SS, I noticed that when you had a black number and gave 2.25, you got high purples for mid cycle. That's a nice, gentle curve, but it would be even better if we got down to yellows then...around 50% of preshot number. So I thought since you have a number pretty close to the same number this morning as you did PMPS of the 15th, why not give a bit of a nudge and see if it brings him down a bit more? It could cause a bounce, if he drops super low...but I think that's unlikely.

I'll try to check in on you during the day because I'm interested to see what Buddy does! It's my last day at my current job though, so I may be AWOL. I know Kris will be around later and I'll surely check on you tonight if I can't before! :)
 
Hi Teresa,
I'm glad Rachel was here to help. I agree with everything she said. I know from a ton of experience with Teasel how hard it is to dose a bouncy cat. What helped me A LOT was training myself to not react to these dips and dives, to stay calm, look at my SS and try what helped before or, if needed, do a little experimenting when I could monitor. A huge part of reclaiming my sanity was accepting that I have a bouncy, unpredictable cat. :)

As one professional cat watcher to another, I feel your pain! However, once you get more confident with all this the testing routine you have in place will give you the info you need to know if you're going to have a calm day where you can take a break, do errands, etc. or if it's a cat watching day.

Just think back to when you began - you have tons more experience with his responses now and likely have a much better idea of how to handle the surprises he gives you occasionally. Hang in there!
 
Rachel said:
Professional cat watcher...man do I know what that's like!! :rolleyes:

The reason I suggested 2.5 (just so you know my thought process) is because for a few cycles now, Buddy has been in high numbers. 2.25 seems to be keeping him safe, but the hope is to get lower numbers. So when I looked at your SS, I noticed that when you had a black number and gave 2.25, you got high purples for mid cycle. That's a nice, gentle curve, but it would be even better if we got down to yellows then...around 50% of preshot number. So I thought since you have a number pretty close to the same number this morning as you did PMPS of the 15th, why not give a bit of a nudge and see if it brings him down a bit more? It could cause a bounce, if he drops super low...but I think that's unlikely.

I'll try to check in on you during the day because I'm interested to see what Buddy does! It's my last day at my current job though, so I may be AWOL. I know Kris will be around later and I'll surely check on you tonight if I can't before! :)
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I was going to give 3u, but I was afraid it would cause him to go too low and then he would have more bouncing. If you look back on his SS we were giving really low doses until 2/1 when he had surgery, so I did not have a lot to go by. When you explained to me the reason for the dose that helps me understand even more. I hope you are not sad about this being your last day on the job. Hope you have a great day.
Kris & Teasel said:
Hi Teresa,
I'm glad Rachel was here to help. I agree with everything she said. I know from a ton of experience with Teasel how hard it is to dose a bouncy cat. What helped me A LOT was training myself to not react to these dips and dives, to stay calm, look at my SS and try what helped before or, if needed, do a little experimenting when I could monitor. A huge part of reclaiming my sanity was accepting that I have a bouncy, unpredictable cat. :)

As one professional cat watcher to another, I feel your pain! However, once you get more confident with all this the testing routine you have in place will give you the info you need to know if you're going to have a calm day where you can take a break, do errands, etc. or if it's a cat watching day.

Just think back to when you began - you have tons more experience with his responses now and likely have a much better idea of how to handle the surprises he gives you occasionally. Hang in there!
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My SS before Buddy's surgery does not have a lot of info to work with, but now I am starting to get more info on his SS. I was glad Rachel was there because I kept thinking 3u, but I was afraid that would give me more of a bounce. I am hoping for a calm day today.
 
There's no rush to up the dose, Teresa, especially with a bouncy kitty. Also, dose changes have to be in small fractions.

Something for later:
Right now you're using U40 syringes with half unit marks to dose Buddy. They're made specifically for U40 insulin. You can use U100 syringes (with half unit marks) with is conversion chart:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm. This would allow you to measure 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 u directly using the marks on the syringe and eyeball 0.1, 0.3, 0.5, 0.7, 0.9. Lots more dosing options.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
There's no rush to up the dose, Teresa, especially with a bouncy kitty. Also, dose changes have to be in small fractions.

Something for later:
Right now you're using U40 syringes with half unit marks to dose Buddy. They're made specifically for U40 insulin. You can use U100 syringes (with half unit marks) with is conversion chart:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm. This would allow you to measure 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 u directly using the marks on the syringe and eyeball 0.1, 0.3, 0.5, 0.7, 0.9. Lots more dosing options.
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I did look for U100 syringes the size you told me of, but none of the local stores carried them. I don't remember now what size you said, could look on line. I live in a small town in Indiana, no Cosco or those type of stores. Do you have any idea how long a bottle of ProZinc kept in the refrigerator would be suitable for use. Another question is it safe to use flea meds, the kind you get from the vet and put on the back of the neck.
 
wolfey said:
I did look for U100 syringes the size you told me of, but none of the local stores carried them. I don't remember now what size you said, could look on line. I live in a small town in Indiana, no Cosco or those type of stores. Do you have any idea how long a bottle of ProZinc kept in the refrigerator would be suitable for use. Another question is it safe to use flea meds, the kind you get from the vet and put on the back of the neck.
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You can order those syringes from www.adwdiabetes.com. I think ProZinc can last at least 2 months if not longer when stored and handled properly. As for flea meds, I've read on here that people use the type you're describing with no problems.

Here's a link to an example of those syringes from the website I just gave you;
https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/carepoint-vet-u-100-pet-syringe-31g-half-unit_16367.htm
 
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Kris & Teasel said:
You can order those syringes from www.adwdiabetes.com. I think ProZinc can last at least 2 months if not longer when stored and handled properly. As for flea meds, I've read on here that people use the type you're describing with no problems.

Here's a link to an example of those syringes from the website I just gave you;
https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/carepoint-vet-u-100-pet-syringe-31g-half-unit_16367.htm
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I hope ProZinc can last up to 2 months because I have had mine since 12/29/16. I have it in the refrigerator in a container with a lid. I talked to Buddy's vet, his histopath came back and looked fine. He said he thought his problems were caused from inflammation caused by pancreatitis, he thinks that is the reason why he could not get his diabetes stable.
I did not tell him it still is not stable.
 
wolfey said:
I hope ProZinc can last up to 2 months because I have had mine since 12/29/16. I have it in the refrigerator in a container with a lid. I talked to Buddy's vet, his histopath came back and looked fine. He said he thought his problems were caused from inflammation caused by pancreatitis, he thinks that is the reason why he could not get his diabetes stable.
I did not tell him it still is not stable.
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I'm so glad that the path report was fine. Yes, pancreatitis can make diabetic control hard but some cats like mine are just difficult. It helped me a lot to see others on FDMB in the same boat.

You're managing Buddy's diabetes yourself and you'll learn more about it as you go along than most vets ever know. :)
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I'm so glad that the path report was fine. Yes, pancreatitis can make diabetic control hard but some cats like mine are just difficult. It helped me a lot to see others on FDMB in the same boat.

You're managing Buddy's diabetes yourself and you'll learn more about it as you go along than most vets ever know. :)
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I think the doctor was talking about before Buddy's surgery. I just took a reading and Buddy's #is 368 and again I am not for sure about a dose. This morning his # was a lot higher.
 
wolfey said:
I think the doctor was talking about before Buddy's surgery. I just took a reading and Buddy's #is 368 and again I am not for sure about a dose. This morning his # was a lot higher.
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I gave Buddy 225u, hope I gave him the right amount. Does anyone ever get their cat to the right number, I can't imagine what unit it would take for Buddy.
 
I think that was a good dose.

Yes, cats do eventually get the right dose...but even that changes. As cats get regulated, often the dose has to go down. Take a look at some Spreadsheets in the remission thread...they can help show you cats who got regulated and eventually went OTJ!
 
Rachel said:
I think that was a good dose.

Yes, cats do eventually get the right dose...but even that changes. As cats get regulated, often the dose has to go down. Take a look at some Spreadsheets in the remission thread...they can help show you cats who got regulated and eventually went OTJ![/QUI I always worry that I will give the wrong dose. We have been trying since 12/26/16 except for 2 x he was hospitalized to get regulated. I did not know that I could look at a remission thread, I will try to hunt that down. I appreciate your response.
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wolfey said:
I gave him 2.75u, I am really thinking about 3u, but don't want to cause any more of a bounce than I already have.
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He should be OK. Aim for some tests in the +3 to +7 range to see how low he goes. When you see a bounce number - which this - you take it into account when deciding on a dose but you really need to see the mid cycle numbers to assess the effectiveness of a dose.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
He should be OK. Aim for some tests in the +3 to +7 range to see how low he goes. When you see a bounce number - which this - you take it into account when deciding on a dose but you really need to see the mid cycle numbers to assess the effectiveness of a dose.
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If you think it is a bounce number would you go higher or lower. I take it that it can't be said for sure that this is a bounce number. Yesterday Buddy was really hungry, after he ate the amount of RC he was allowed to have, I gave him some FF classic. Would the FF cause his numbers to go so high.
 
Looking good so far today, Teresa! :) If you see overly high numbers at a dose that gave you good numbers recently, those are bounce numbers. They often appear when a dose has dropped the BG and it's wearing off so the BG is rising but rising too much (overreaction). The high bounce numbers can stick around longer so that the next cycle that dose appears to have no effect. If you keep the dose you'll suddenly get a drop in BG again because the bounce has stopped (or "cleared" as is often said here).

When deciding on a dose for a cat that is known to bounce, you have to base the majority of the decision on how low the BG went rather than how high. Bouncing artificially raises BG.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
He should be OK. Aim for some tests in the +3 to +7 range to see how low he goes. When you see a bounce number - which this - you take it into account when deciding on a dose but you really need to see the mid cycle numbers to assess the effectiveness of a dose.
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I went back and wrote down what you said about bouncing and how the liver stores glucose from the food Buddy eats, then I went to Buddy's SS. What I was wondering is, if I had given buddy a lower dose of insulin on 2/14 PMPS, would that have kept him from having such a low reading on AMPS 2/15.
 
wolfey said:
I went back and wrote down what you said about bouncing and how the liver stores glucose from the food Buddy eats, then I went to Buddy's SS. What I was wondering is, if I had given buddy a lower dose of insulin on 2/14 PMPS, would that have kept him from having such a low reading on AMPS 2/15.
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Possibly but it's hard to say. The only way to be a little more sure of what happened and what to do next is to have LOTS of data on the SS. That's why it's so valuable as a reference.
 
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