BG dropped and advice for high calorie/LC food

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I think the whole "how many calories" does a cat need depends very much on multiple factors and Mayton's vet should be the one advising for his particular over all health and situation. At this point, he needs to eat consistently so if he starts struggling do no withhold the dry food especially with risk of DKA.

We can help with dosing and give ideas but none of are vets so it's important to get his BW and overall health assessed in my opinion. What works or is advised for say my Doodles as opposed to other kitties may not work best for Mayton.
 
Doodles & Karen said:
I think the whole "how many calories" does a cat need depends very much on multiple factors and Mayton's vet should be the one advising for his particular over all health and situation.
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In principle yes, but I'll just share my vets response to this question of how many cal does George need?
She phoned the Hills rep/ advice board, they said 67g of Hills kibble:rolleyes:
Says it all really.......

I love my vet but with regards food we have agreed to disagree.
 
Just to make sure I'm doing this right... I should still be trying to give him wet food over dry food right? I think he could eat 1 to 2 cans of fancy feast a day. I know there are different opinions on how much he should get but is this an acceptable range for him to eat. I doubt he would eat any more than that.
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
Just to make sure I'm doing this right... I should still be trying to give him wet food over dry food right? I think he could eat 1 to 2 cans of fancy feast a day. I know there are different opinions on how much he should get but is this an acceptable range for him to eat. I doubt he would eat any more than that.
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I think that Sandy makes an excellent point, its getting the calories into him at the moment that's important, he needs to gain, and you need to make sure he is getting enough calories to make sure that DKA is not an issue.
I'm in europe son not familiar with calories in a can of FF, do you know?? How many ounces in a can.
I would say that wet would be preferable, if he is falling short on calories then topping up with the dry is an option.
 
Gill & George said:
I think that Sandy makes an excellent point, its getting the calories into him at the moment that's important, he needs to gain, and you need to make sure he is getting enough calories to make sure that DKA is not an issue.
I'm in europe son not familiar with calories in a can of FF, do you know?? How many ounces in a can.
I would say that wet would be preferable, if he is falling short on calories then topping up with the dry is an option.
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I think it's 3oz for about 90 calories
 
While I agree that often times the pet food manufacturers overestimate the amount of calories a cat needs and I have used Dr. Lisa's info to better adjust my cats' calories, I more solidly agree with Sandy in this situation.

He needs extra calories, water/liquid so be sure to add a tsp or so to each of his helpings, and the correct dose of insulin to keep him out of high numbers. When we are adjusting the dose for a cat that has had DKA, we don't focus on which method you use to get him into better numbers. We focus on getting him there as safely and quickly as we can. Once he's there, then we can focus on method but we want to try and keep him in good numbers as long as we can safely do so. Since you are home seven days, it would be the ideal to coach Mom on how to test.

The ideal food you are looking for is one with plenty of calories, not carbs, that he will eat consistently and that won't raise his BG. You were very, very smart to use the dry today! And we've also recommended that when converting them to wet food, sprinkling some crushed up dry on top of the wet is great so well done, you!!!!

I'm assuming they figured out what infection caused the DKA and he was on antibiotics? It's really wise tomtesthis urine every day because we've seen cats in good numbers start throwing ketones and unchecked and untreated ketones are a recipe for DKA.

Super work today!
 
Marje and Gracie said:
The ideal food you are looking for is one with plenty of calories, not carbs, that he will eat consistently and that won't raise his BG. You were very, very smart to use the dry today! And we've also recommended that when converting them to wet food, sprinkling some crushed up dry on top of the wet is great so well done, you!!!!!
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Do you know of any wet foods that have more calories than fancy feast? I heard some people feed their cats Friskies, does that have more calories?
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
Do you know of any wet foods that have more calories than fancy feast? I heard some people feed their cats Friskies, does that have more calories?
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Mackenzie

Let me see what I can find. I feed a raw diet so I'll have to check on other foods with more calories but less carbs. Do you prefer to stick with economic brands as I am familiar with a couple other brands with more calories but they are pricey.

Also, the other thing to remember is if he's eating FF but you think there are not enough calories in it, feed him more. Will he eat more? What's most important is to be sure he is eating and getting those calories; what can be worrisome is if you switch foods and he doesn't like it so he doesn't eat it.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Mackenzie

Let me see what I can find. I feed a raw diet so I'll have to check on other foods with more calories but less carbs. Do you prefer to stick with economic brands as I am familiar with a couple other brands with more calories but they are pricey.

Also, the other thing to remember is if he's eating FF but you think there are not enough calories in it, feed him more. Will he eat more? What's most important is to be sure he is eating and getting those calories; what can be worrisome is if you switch foods and he doesn't like it so he doesn't eat it.
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No he won't eat more of the fancy feast. He will probably eat 1 or 2 cans in a day. He will eat a lot of dry food though.
We probably want to stick to ones that aren't very expensive.
I've been experimenting with different types of foods for a couple days so I've been buying 1 of a few different kinds.
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
No he won't eat more of the fancy feast. He will probably eat 1 or 2 cans in a day. He will eat a lot of dry food though.
We probably want to stick to ones that aren't very expensive.
I've been experimenting with different types of foods for a couple days so I've been buying 1 of a few different kinds.
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Great to know. Thank you. A quick check of the Friskies that is LC indicates it is about the same number of calories/oz. I think you are going to find that many of the foods are similar in calories/oz.

Some of the prescription recovery foods, like Iams Max Calorie, is high calorie, fairly LC but you have to have a script and my sick kitty at the time, did not find it particularly palatable. I find it is best for kitties that need assist feeding or supplemental assist feeding.

Let me look a bit. You can also add to the thread subject line "need high calorie, LC food" and others might have good ideas.
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
No he won't eat more of the fancy feast. He will probably eat 1 or 2 cans in a day. He will eat a lot of dry food though.
We probably want to stick to ones that aren't very expensive.
I've been experimenting with different types of foods for a couple days so I've been buying 1 of a few different kinds.
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There are a couple of diabetic-friendly kibbles that can be helpful while transitioning to wet-- Evo Cat+Kitten and Young Again. I've used Young Again successfully-- if Mayton likes it, it has the advantage of being quite calorie-dense too. The disadvantages are that it is pricey and only available online (but they will send you a free sample if you contact them). Evo Cat+Kitten is available at specialty pet stores; not as sure about how reliably low-carb it is. I had mixed results but it was after a disaster when my diabetic got into a ton of contraband, so I may have just been seeing continued aftereffects of that.
 
Nan & Amber said:
I've used Young Again successfully-- if Mayton likes it, it has the advantage of being quite calorie-dense too.
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I should add that I'm not 100% certain about recommending YA for a DKA kitty-- it's calorie-dense, for sure, but one of their marketing points is that even though it seems pricey it really isn't because cats don't eat as much of it as they do regular kibble. I definitely found that to be the case, even though my cat seemed to like the taste quite a bit, so I think you'd still have to be pretty careful monitoring how many calories Mayton was taking in to make sure he was getting enough.
 
Doodles & Karen said:
Do you think you're able to measure the 1.75u dose? If you're sryinges have 1/2 unit markings we eyeball the dose between the 1.5 & 2u lines.
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When you suggested this, do you think I should change his insulin dosage tonight to 1.75? I know that wet food will cause his BG to go lower and since I plan on continuing to feed him wet, would it be better to decrease his insulin dosage?
 
Nan & Amber said:
There are a couple of diabetic-friendly kibbles that can be helpful while transitioning to wet-- Evo Cat+Kitten and Young Again. I've used Young Again successfully-- if Mayton likes it, it has the advantage of being quite calorie-dense too. The disadvantages are that it is pricey and only available online (but they will send you a free sample if you contact them). Evo Cat+Kitten is available at specialty pet stores; not as sure about how reliably low-carb it is. I had mixed results but it was after a disaster when my diabetic got into a ton of contraband, so I may have just been seeing continued aftereffects of that.
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I too used YA for transitioning my dry food crack addicts off the dry. After feeding it to them and they both loved it , I ground it in my Magic Bullet and sprinkled it on top of the wet food and they started eating the wet :cat: It is pricey but an average size 12 cat eats only 1/3 cup a day. And like Nan said, it is very calorie dense.

I agree that after a DKA episode getting enough calories into kitty is paramount and I wouldn't worry about calorie count just yet as that can be fine tuned later. Most kitties lose weight after a DKA episode and glad that Mayton is gaining back his lost weight.

Also, I agree with Gill about vets knowing the correct amount to feed cats as mine referred me to the cat food company I was giving and their calculations are not best .

Can you add Mayton's name to your signature ?
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
When you suggested this, do you think I should change his insulin dosage tonight to 1.75? I know that wet food will cause his BG to go lower and since I plan on continuing to feed him wet, would it be better to decrease his insulin dosage
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@Marje and Gracie what do you think about Mayton's dose considering DKA? I suggested reducing to 1.75 with the food change and the current ability to test.
 
Doodles & Karen said:
@Marje and Gracie what do you think about Mayton's dose considering DKA? I suggested reducing to 1.75 with the food change and the current ability to test.
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Mackenzie: pleae correct me if I have this wrong but he was eating dry DM except the last four meals, you have given him only canned with dry sprinkled on top? When did you start feeding canned and cut back the dry? It's helpful if in the SS Remarks, you annotate what you are feeding and how often as that helps us see the effects it might have on his BG.

I think if you have all the supplies you need (strips, HC food/gravy, Karo or honey) and you are available and able to test and you are slowly removing the dry (e.g. Just sprinkling it on his food), if he were mine, would leave the dose and see how often he's getting into better numbers. I think doing that while you are able to test and slowly eE,loving the dry is better than going cold turkey and risking a big drop. We want to be able to get as much insulin in him as we safely can.

The risk of DKA is pretty low as long as he is eating well and drinking and he has no ketones. But we should still try to keep him at a good dose and slowly remove the food then adjust the insulin.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Mackenzie: pleae correct me if I have this wrong but he was eating dry DM except the last four meals, you have given him only canned with dry sprinkled on top? When did you start feeding canned and cut back the dry? It's helpful if in the SS Remarks, you annotate what you are feeding and how often as that helps us see the effects it might have on his BG.

I think if you have all the supplies you need (strips, HC food/gravy, Karo or honey) and you are available and able to test and you are slowly removing the dry (e.g. Just sprinkling it on his food), if he were mine, would leave the dose and see how often he's getting into better numbers. I think doing that while you are able to test and slowly eE,loving the dry is better than going cold turkey and risking a big drop. We want to be able to get as much insulin in him as we safely can.

The risk of DKA is pretty low as long as he is eating well and drinking and he has no ketones. But we should still try to keep him at a good dose and slowly remove the food then adjust the insulin.
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Yes I started it by giving wet just as a snack 3 days ago. Then giving it for snack and dinner 2 days ago (with dry mixed in) and then yesterday giving him it for all 3 meals (with dry mixed in). Maybe I transitioned over to wet to quickly and that's why this morning it dropped.
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
Yes I started it by giving wet just as a snack 3 days ago. Then giving it for snack and dinner 2 days ago (with dry mixed in) and then yesterday giving him it for all 3 meals (with dry mixed in). Maybe I transitioned over to wet to quickly and that's why this morning it dropped.
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No problem with transitioning over to wet quickly concerning the BG's as long as you are testing regularly to catch those drops like this am. The worse thing that can happen from the rapid transition is a GI upset like diarrhea.
 
If he really likes that grain free wet food you posted a photo of last night - the one with potato starch in it - you might consider feeding that. I'd worry less about exact carb count and more about enough calories right now. Also - add warm water to every wet meal.
 
Glad Layton is eating well.:)

Just checking in before o head to bed.

Hope you have had time to read and digest all the info you've been given.

Remember to be grab that pmps tonight before you shoot, and grab a before bed test tonight even if ps is high, best to keep tabs on him as he has shown you he can dip into lower numbers..

:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Gill & George said:
Remember to be grab that pmps tonight before you shoot, and grab a before bed test tonight even if ps is high, best to keep tabs on him as he has shown you he can dip into lower numbers..
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Tonight update:
His pre shot was 323 so it got pretty high up there again. Just feeding him some FF with a little dry for dinner. And I plan on leaving the same thing out before I head to bed. I'll be giving him his normal 2 unit dosage of insulin.

And he is negative for ketones!
 
Morning update:
My dad wasn't able to get a blood test this morning he said Mayton was too squirmy. He was fed FF with a sprinkle of dry, and given 2 units of insulin.

+3 is 260 and I am giving him more food now.

I think I will try to give him 5 meals a day with the wet food.
-Breakfast 6:30am
-Snack: 10:00am
-Lunch: 2:00pm
-Dinner: 6:30pm
-Overnight: 10:30pm
 
tiffmaxee said:
I'd be concerned about feeding too much fish. Once you go down that road it's hard to get them to accept better protein sources.
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Oops I just saw this post! He seems to like the fish FF more so I've been giving him the salmon classic and the tuna classic. Yesterday and right now he did eat Coopers chicken classic when Cooper didn't finish his. So I do have that option. Would it be a good idea to throw in a chicken classics everyone once in a while?
 
Morning Mckenzie:)
George sometimes got squirmy in the mornings, still does, I think it's mostly cause he's hungry and wants his breakfast, I found that with George at any rate you have to let him know who's in charge, by staying calm, and not giving in, they soon learn that the sooner they keep still, get a poke, the sooner they get a treat. I found that sometimes it was better to just walk away for a minute and come back to him when George was giving me trouble. Is dad giving Mayton a treat right after he gets his poke? It's important to be consistent with the poke treat routine, that way Mayton will associate being poked with a treat and you will find he will be more likely to be compliant.

I think you need to have a chat with dad about shooting blind, it can be really very risky, even down right dangerous to not get a PS before administering insulin. If you are shooting a low number, like yesterday's 89 it's important to know that, so that you know to feed and monitor appropriately like you did yesterday, not knowing what number you are shooting could end in tragedy.

I tend to feed George more chicken and turkey than fish, his favorite is definitely fish though, there is some concern with the build up of heavy metals in some fish so having a diet that is predominantly fish, could carry some health risks for Mayton, so if he'll eat the chicken I would definitely feed him some of that. Seems like he is eating well if he's stealing the civies fuds:)

Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
Morning update:
My dad wasn't able to get a blood test this morning he said Mayton was too squirmy. He was fed FF with a sprinkle of dry, and given 2 units of insulin.

+3 is 260 and I am giving him more food now.

I think I will try to give him 5 meals a day with the wet food.
-Breakfast 6:30am
-Snack: 10:00am
-Lunch: 2:00pm
-Dinner: 6:30pm
-Overnight: 10:30pm
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That seems sensible though I would probably suggest that you give lunch a little earlier, I'm guessing that you are shooting at 6.30am?? so 2pm is +7.5, Usually we try to give the bulk of food in the first half of the cycle, having a big meal late on when the insulin action is weakening can have the effect of bumping his numbers up. If you could give lunch around +6 and you think he will eat it then that might be a better approach for the time being, and maybe bring forward the snack to 8.30/ 9am +2/+2.5
The other thing that I tried to do was keep the scheduled feedings for the am and pm cycles about the same, that's where you might find the autofeeder comes in useful there are many different ones, but a lot of folk here use this one https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Meal-Automatic-Pet-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20 .

That yellow seems to suggest that Mayton is still bouncing of that low yesterday, I would perhaps get a test in before you give him his lunch. +6 ish just to see where he is BG wise midcycle, +6 in theory is where insulin action is greatest, so it will be interesting to see if his BG is coming down.

Keep up the good work.
 
Yes, I'd start weaning him off the fish as much as possible-- it's good he likes the chicken too!

This forum is so busy, we like to start a new thread each day-- put Mayton's name and the date in the subject (plus any questions, key BG numbers as they come up), and a link to the previous day's thread in the first post to help people get oriented.

Not a bad number for +3, but we don't know where he started, of course. Definitely get some midcycle tests today (Gill+George just posted with more details on that-- I might even go for a test sooner than that to get the trajectory, but it is up to you and I am kind of a testaholic so...).
 
Gill & George said:
Morning Mckenzie:)
George sometimes got squirmy in the mornings, still does, I think it's mostly cause he's hungry and wants his breakfast, I found that with George at any rate you have to let him know who's in charge, by staying calm, and not giving in, they soon learn that the sooner they keep still, get a poke, the sooner they get a treat. I found that sometimes it was better to just walk away for a minute and come back to him when George was giving me trouble. Is dad giving Mayton a treat right after he gets his poke? It's important to be consistent with the poke treat routine, that way Mayton will associate being poked with a treat and you will find he will be more likely to be compliant.

I think you need to have a chat with dad about shooting blind, it can be really very risky, even down right dangerous to not get a PS before administering insulin. If you are shooting a low number, like yesterday's 89 it's important to know that, so that you know to feed and monitor appropriately like you did yesterday, not knowing what number you are shooting could end in tragedy.

I tend to feed George more chicken and turkey than fish, his favorite is definitely fish though, there is some concern with the build up of heavy metals in some fish so having a diet that is predominantly fish, could carry some health risks for Mayton, so if he'll eat the chicken I would definitely feed him some of that. Seems like he is eating well if he's stealing the civies fuds:)


That seems sensible though I would probably suggest that you give lunch a little earlier, I'm guessing that you are shooting at 6.30am?? so 2pm is +7.5, Usually we try to give the bulk of food in the first half of the cycle, having a big meal late on when the insulin action is weakening can have the effect of bumping his numbers up. If you could give lunch around +6 and you think he will eat it then that might be a better approach for the time being, and maybe bring forward the snack to 8.30/ 9am +2/+2.5
The other thing that I tried to do was keep the scheduled feedings for the am and pm cycles about the same, that's where you might find the autofeeder comes in useful there are many different ones, but a lot of folk here use this one https://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Meal-Automatic-Pet-Feeder/dp/B000GEWHNS?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20 .
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We don't give Mayton a treat after his poking. We don't have any treats in the house he never has really liked them.

I will start trying to feed him more chicken FF rather than the fish ones. And I will will move up his feeding schedule so more meals fall in the beginning part of the cycle.

I will talk to my parents about getting the automatic feeder. It is probably worth it since putting in the food, taking the dish up, and washing it 5 times a day is a bit of work!! Plus when I go back to school my mom probably won't be able to stick to the feeding schedule that well since she Is working (at home).
I'll test his blood again at 1, (can't do 12:30 I'll be pet sitting).
 
Nan & Amber said:
This forum is so busy, we like to start a new thread each day-- put Mayton's name and the date in the subject (plus any questions, key BG numbers as they come up), and a link to the previous day's thread in the first post to help people get oriented.
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Yes I will put today's stuff to a new forum starting now. I will try to get a blood test in at 11:30 and between 1-1:30. Which will be a +5 and +7.
 
Mackenzie Obermeyer said:
Oops I just saw this post! He seems to like the fish FF more so I've been giving him the salmon classic and the tuna classic. Yesterday and right now he did eat Coopers chicken classic when Cooper didn't finish his. So I do have that option. Would it be a good idea to throw in a chicken classics everyone once in a while?
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I'd find classics that he likes without fish. The chicken does contain some. Try turkey and giblets and liver and chicken. A fish diet depletes a cat's body of vitamin B1 and E and taurine which cats need. . The chicken is better than the all fish varieties. It could be part of a rotation.
 
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