1/1 Radar - reduction earned and he's dropping fast again...

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Jan Radar (GA)

Jan Radar (GA)

Member Since 2015
Radar decided today that he wanted a reduced dose so he went nose diving to 42. I caught it and was able to intervene with a bit of honey and HC food and now he's at 98. His only symptom was ravenous hunger and now he's curled up under his favorite blanket waiting for my next test in about 10 minutes.
 
Good catch Jan! Glad that he came up so easily for you. Since he is only at +5 you might want to not feed anymore an re- check again in 30 minutes to make sure he continues to not go down.

Congrats on the reducie!

ETA: And last night was a fur shot!
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Good catch Jan! Glad that he came up so easily for you. Since he is only at +5 you might want to not feed anymore an re- check again in 30 minutes to make sure he continues to not go down.

Congrats on the reducie!

ETA: And last night was a fur shot!
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I'm so glad that I tested as usual this morning. I didn't expect him to dive after last nights fur shot... especially since we've had 2 fur shots in the last couple of days. His depot was already a bit depleated and he still dipped low so this reduction is important for his safety before I have to return to school. +6 is 172 so I will let him sleep and test again in an hour. :cool:
 
Jan Radar said:
I'm so glad that I tested as usual this morning. I didn't expect him to dive after last nights fur shot... especially since we've had 2 fur shots in the last couple of days. His depot was already a bit depleated and he still dipped low so this reduction is important for his safety before I have to return to school. +6 is 172 so I will let him sleep and test again in an hour. :cool:
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So crazy how you never know. Great that you caught the drop an awesome that you get to reduce!
 
About a week ago I was looking for trends on Radars ss and it appeared to me that although he has earned reductions recently, they didn't seem to be holding very well. we'd go up and down and then go back up again. So I decided to start giving him a "fat" 4.5 to see if those few extra drops of insulin would make a difference for him. We use digital calipers to measure our doses so we set them carefully between 4.75 and 4.5. He was on that dose for 4 days and then we had a fur shot so the count started over...:arghh:. then we had 3 cycles before our next fur shot which was last night... I didn't expect that one shot after the fur shot would earn a reduction but it seems to have done the job as reflected in his ss today.

This brings me to my question about tonight's dose... I need to reduce by .25 so do I go to a strict 4.25 or a "fat"4.25?? My inclination is to go to a strict 4.25 and see how he does because I will have to return to work on Tuesday and will only be able to monitor at night. I need some wise eyes to look at our ss and help me decide what to do next. @Marje and Gracie or @Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey or @Critter Mom or @Bobbie And Bubba Any thoughts?? Many :bighug: :bighug::bighug: And thanks from Radar and me for your experience and time.
 
You are still following SLGS? Just want to be sure.

I think one reason you got the number you did today was waiting to test him when he was coming down really fast (no judgement; just an observation). His +2 was significantly lower than his AMPS so it was a good signal that he was going to be very active today. I would have fed that +3 with a MC food and retested him in one hour max to try and prevent the drop below 90.

If he were on TR, I’d suggest you start holding doses for three drops between 40 and 50 but he’s not. If he were mine, and since you have calipers, I’d just reduce to f4.25u. I don’t have a lot of faith that he will hold this reduction (perhaps by me saying that, he will ;)).

I’m seeing failed reductions for the reason I stated above. I think he’s giving you some pretty good clues about when he’s going to drop and when you need to manage the curve with some food. Let us know if you need or would like more info on that.

I’m still going to hope he does well with the reduction!! :):):bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
hmmmmm, that's a good question. Depending on his numbers tonight because it all ready looks like he is on the rise from the fast drop and the HC food, I would go to 4.25 ish , oh, just saw that Marje suggested a fat 4.25. Hope that does it for him. Fingers and Paws crossed for a help reduction. :cat:
 
Marje and Gracie said:
You are still following SLGS? Just want to be sure.

I think one reason you got the number you did today was waiting to test him when he was coming down really fast (no judgement; just an observation). His +2 was significantly lower than his AMPS so it was a good signal that he was going to be very active today. I would have fed that +3 with a MC food and retested him in one hour max to try and prevent the drop below 90.

If he were on TR, I’d suggest you start holding doses for three drops between 40 and 50 but he’s not. If he were mine, and since you have calipers, I’d just reduce to f4.25u. I don’t have a lot of faith that he will hold this reduction (perhaps by me saying that, he will ;)).

I’m seeing failed reductions for the reason I stated above. I think he’s giving you some pretty good clues about when he’s going to drop and when you need to manage the curve with some food. Let us know if you need or would like more info on that.

I’m still going to hope he does well with the reduction!! :):):bighug::bighug::bighug:
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Thanks for your valuable insights, Marje. I think I do need some help with feeding the curve more successfully. One of my biggest problems is that Radar is having difficulty eating anything with consistency due to his very easily upset tummy. For the last 2 days or so the only thing he would eat is gerber baby food. When his tummy is upset and I have to coax him to eat at all, I focus on getting him back to eating and don't worry so much about the numbers I'm getting. I give him probiotics, a little SEB and feed often and wait patiently for him to be willing to return to cat food. Today he was finally willing to eat some Radcat instead of babyfood for breakfast. I'm trying to feed him more strategically but my plans only work if he is willing to eat.
 
I agree with all Marje said. When reductions aren't holding, sometimes you have to get a little creative. Preventing a reduction from being earned can really help them get to the point where they will hold it, and you do that by guiding them with food. I see your problem with his tummy issues, but hopefully you can find a way to work around that. Radar, this is where you come it - eat your yummy fuds!

Jan, could you please add "SLGS" to your signature block? I have memory issues and I just can't keep track of who is on TR and who is on SLGS, so I don't want to give the wrong suggestions! ;)
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
I agree with all Marje said. When reductions aren't holding, sometimes you have to get a little creative. Preventing a reduction from being earned can really help them get to the point where they will hold it, and you do that by guiding them with food. I see your problem with his tummy issues, but hopefully you can find a way to work around that. Radar, this is where you come it - eat your yummy fuds!

Jan, could you please add "SLGS" to your signature block? I have memory issues and I just can't keep track of who is on TR and who is on SLGS, so I don't want to give the wrong suggestions! ;)
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haha...it’s on there already Tricia but a little hidden. I had to look for it, too, so I asked to be sure she was still doing it.

Jan Radar said:
Thanks for your valuable insights, Marje. I think I do need some help with feeding the curve more successfully. One of my biggest problems is that Radar is having difficulty eating anything with consistency due to his very easily upset tummy. For the last 2 days or so the only thing he would eat is gerber baby food. When his tummy is upset and I have to coax him to eat at all, I focus on getting him back to eating and don't worry so much about the numbers I'm getting. I give him probiotics, a little SEB and feed often and wait patiently for him to be willing to return to cat food. Today he was finally willing to eat some Radcat instead of babyfood for breakfast. I'm trying to feed him more strategically but my plans only work if he is willing to eat.
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You’re welcome. I’m working on something right now but when I am done, I’ll post some info on managing the curve with food. However, I totally get what you are saying. It’s easier to manage it when you have a cat that likes to eat.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
haha...it’s on there already Tricia but a little hidden. I had to look for it, too, so I asked to be sure she was still doing it.


You’re welcome. I’m working on something right now but when I am done, I’ll post some info on managing the curve with food. However, I totally get what you are saying. It’s easier to manage it when you have a cat that likes to eat.
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Yes I am still following SLGS. I will make it more prominent on my signature block as I didn't realize it was buried. :confused: Thank you for posting more info, when you are able, about feeding the curve with more success. I hope Radar reads the information and helps me to follow it by eating. !!!
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
I agree with all Marje said. When reductions aren't holding, sometimes you have to get a little creative. Preventing a reduction from being earned can really help them get to the point where they will hold it, and you do that by guiding them with food. I see your problem with his tummy issues, but hopefully you can find a way to work around that. Radar, this is where you come it - eat your yummy fuds!

Jan, could you please add "SLGS" to your signature block? I have memory issues and I just can't keep track of who is on TR and who is on SLGS, so I don't want to give the wrong suggestions! ;)
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Sorry about the SLGS info being buried in my signature block. I will fix it for you. :) I will encourage Radar to pay attention to your instructions... but he's busy napping right now... he's such a cat. :cat:
 
Jan Radar said:
Thanks for your valuable insights, Marje. I think I do need some help with feeding the curve more successfully. One of my biggest problems is that Radar is having difficulty eating anything with consistency due to his very easily upset tummy. For the last 2 days or so the only thing he would eat is gerber baby food. When his tummy is upset and I have to coax him to eat at all, I focus on getting him back to eating and don't worry so much about the numbers I'm getting. I give him probiotics, a little SEB and feed often and wait patiently for him to be willing to return to cat food. Today he was finally willing to eat some Radcat instead of babyfood for breakfast. I'm trying to feed him more strategically but my plans only work if he is willing to eat.
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I know this tune; it's not easy ... :(

(((Jan)))

I find sprinkling powdered freeze-dried chicken over food can be enough to tempt when it's only a minor food wobble.

:bighug:


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
I know this tune; it's not easy ... :(

(((Jan)))

I find sprinkling powdered freeze-dried chicken over food can be enough to tempt when it's only a minor food wobble.

:bighug:


Mogs
.
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I knew you would understand my challenges, Mogs. I am an accomplished sprinkler of tempting tidbits (bonito and dust of freeze dried chicken are favorites here) but these have not done the trick recently :(. He would rather lick tape than eat :arghh:. I'm pretty sure he is nauseated as there are classic signs including lip licking and backing away from food. I have also raised his dishes to the tops of paint cans and think now it's time to get out the ondansetron (spell?) and support further with a B12 injection.
 
My kitchen has been invaded by a land shark who bites all available plastic, licks tape and is just generally restless. When food is offered he is interested but won't eat.... until bonito is loaded in the dish on top of the LC chicken. I think he's actually a shark in disguise.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Jan

Rather than totally rewrite a perfect post, I'll just link the one where Jill discusses managing the curve with food. The explanation is in posts 15 and 17.

Once you've had a chance to read it, tag me....or others with experience....to go through it with you.

Glad he's eating better tonight!
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I've read the link you've kindly provided, :bookworm: but my head has twisted into a pretzel trying to figure out how I can do this type of food manipulation of the curve when I have a cat who doesn't eat with consistency when I'm home on a break... or when I'm away all day at work. Perhaps there are tips and tricks I can learn that others have used successfully with cats who are reluctant inconsistent eaters ??? I am willing to learn but am not sure what experiments to try first so I can gather the information I need to proceed To the next step
 
He seems bent on dropping fast early in the cycle.... I attempted to slow him down with food but with little success. I am at a loss for what to try ... @julie & punkin (ga) do you have any suggestions I can use right away for tomorrow's potential nose dive?
 
Hmm, so are you saying that you give him B-12 injections and it stimulates his appetite? I haven't heard of that, except that giving B-12 shots can help prevent recurring p-titis. I didn't think it worked quickly like that, however. We gave them regularly to punkin. Our vet says they can work wonders on stimulating a senior cat. Are you giving them on some kind of schedule?

Just saw your last post - no problem. My DH is unloading the dishwasher so i'm happy to keep writing to you. I'm going to post this and then write some more in a sec.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
Hmm, so are you saying that you give him B-12 injections and it stimulates his appetite? I haven't heard of that, except that giving B-12 shots can help prevent recurring p-titis. I didn't think it worked quickly like that, however. We gave them regularly to punkin. Our vet says they can work wonders on stimulating a senior cat. Are you giving them on some kind of schedule?

Just saw your last post - no problem. My DH is unloading the dishwasher so i'm happy to keep writing to you. I'm going to post this and then write some more in a sec.
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Yes, we discovered this tool when we had to board Radar when he was young and he refused to eat at the kennel. Ever since then we have always used B12 to stimulate his appetite when he has to be boarded. The vet suspects IBD as a possible problem contributing to Radars tummy and eating issues and has told me that I can inject B12 as often as once a week to help him eat better. We have had times when I've been given the ok from the vet to give two B12s in the same week when he was really reluctant to eat. It "usually" takes an hour to several hours to work. I have not used a schedule exactly... it's been more like at least once a month and often every 2 weeks.
 
When you've got appy issues, that makes depending on feeding the curve a little more problematic. There is more than 1 reason to "feed the curve" - sometimes it's to prevent fast drops, sometimes it's to get a little more insulin in a cat to bring down the surrounding higher numbers.

Have you tried all the tricks in the "Stimulating a Kitty's Appetite" link? It's at the bottom of the "New to the Group?" sticky.

The basic idea is to compare your current test to the previous one and notice how quickly a cat's blood sugar is dropping. It doesn't drop at a constant rate per hour, but it gives you an idea. When you saw a 62 point drop today from 225 to 163 in an hour, that would be a good time to intervene with some food to slow him down. At that point you could've prevented him dropping into the 40's.

I would've also been looking at the amps 351 and +2/225 - that's a huge drop to have at +2. That's 126 points at a time when the Lantus *ought* to just be onsetting. Usually that can be seen as a +2 that is about the same as the preshot. Lantus typically onsets about +2, but looking at Radar's ss, nearly every +2 is significantly lower than the preshot. To me that suggests that the Lantus is onsetting before +2. In order to prevent him from dropping too fast, you might want to divide his preshot meal up into multiple portions. This is a trial and error process. Many people put an * in the cell when they feed - that will help you try different things and be able to analyze the result. I don't know how you feed him now, but you could try something like taking the normal preshot meal and dividing it up into 3rds. Give 1/3 at preshot time and 2/3 at +1 or +1.5. The reason for that would be to have more carbs present when the insulin begins to work. That *should* reduce the fast drops at +2.

How fast is a fast drop? Depends on the cat - I asked Jill that once and she said that most cats would react to anything over 50 points in an hour, but that it is an individual thing.

Your situation is a little trickier because of the appy issue. I haven't been following Radar's situation and don't know if he normally has appy issues. Could he have pancreatitis? It's so common and it almost always affects the appetite.

I've got to go, but I'll try to check back in with you tomorrow on it. Let's see what Marje had in mind when she suggested feeding the curve.

Just saw your response above. I would switch to routinely giving the B-12 shots weekly and not let it go longer than that. B vitamins are excreted in urine if they aren't needed, so I don't think you can hurt him with that. We gave them weekly to punkin at first, then spread out and gave them monthly.

I'll look in on you tomorrow to see if you have questions. Nighty night!
 
Oh, and I wanted to give you this link from the "Where Can I Find?" thread. Read the last one on Probiotics in IBD cats. My McGee was vomiting daily - I thought hair even though he is a short haired cat - and then I read the thread below on chronic vomiting and starting giving him probiotics per the last link. No more vomiting. I think you said you're giving him probiotics - I wonder if a change in brand might help? Anyway, for what it's worth, here ya go:

Digestive Problems:
Constipation, Maggie11 & Ann; Feline Constipation
Hairballs/Chronic Vomiting
Probiotics in IBD (or other) cats
 
@Jan Radar -

Twice-a-day ondansetron helped Saoirse greatly, Jan. B12 helped, too.

NB: it can be a bit constipating. Adding a 1/4 tsp canned pumpkin to each mini meal helped with that. Slippery elm is another option.

Re giving small amounts of food to steer, have you tried feeding a little amount of mashed up regular food from your hand? The hand warms the food a bit and the reassurance of your presence might perhaps help a little?

:bighug:


Mogs
.
 
Hi Jan.

Radar looks like he's leveling off now. Has he been eating still? It's good that his drop slowed like that. Hopefully he's at or near nadir.

Mogs mentioned pumpkin for helping his digestion. My Cinco didn't like canned pumpkin, but he would eat a tablespoon of squash baby food in his breakfast every day, and it kept him regular. Just another option for you to try, if you haven't already.

I'm in your time zone and will be up another hour or so. I'll check back in case you need anything tonight.
 
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