PMPS of 70 but full dose of Caninsulin injected

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StephG said:
He's only 70 an hour after you fed him 2/3 of his meal?
How much is 2/3 of his meal?
When do you usually give the other third of his meal?
Do not give insulin. I think you won't need it until at least his pm shot.
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2/3 of the meal of the morning.
He got the third part of the morning meal just after the test (usually he gets it after the shot). Then, usually, he gets the other half of the daily meal later, a little bit of it at the end of the afternoon and the rest after the 2nd shot in the evening.
 
And NO NO NO, I won't do the shot now. And for the next one I guess that we will have to drop the quantity of insulin. 1IU is probably too high. I wrote an email to the vet with all the BG and time.
(Do you think now that we should remove the "911"or not yet ?)
 
Sif said:
At + 12 and the half and after the normal meal : BG = 70 mmol/L
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Is that mmol/L or 70 mg/dl? Sorry I keep asking but I don't know the conversions.

So for his morning meal before his last test of 70 how many ounces or grams did he eat?

I was expecting a reading higher than 70mg/dl.
 
StephG said:
@Capoo what's your take on his post meal reading?
Do you think he's still being influenced by the insulin?
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That's exactly what I was wondering : I've never seen Caninsulin working for such a long time, and that was also my wondering when I saw the first PMPS of 70 yesterday.

I know that each cat is different, but mine weights around the same weight as Epi, and even with doses as high as 7 IU, I have never had this type of preshot numbers.

I was even wondering if this cat is still diabetic at all.

I can't remember if Sif changed the food just after the diagnosis.

I need to reread the first emails...
 
I have read the first email : was Epi diagnosed diabetic only with a spot check of his BG at the vet, or was he also showing some clinical signs of diabetes at home (terrible quantity of pees each day, always thirsty...)?
 
I am wondering about the diagnosis too!?

70 BG after all the kibble treats and his AM meal is a beautiful number. I fully expected it to double after all that but I only have some experience with ProZinc.
Google says max duration is 12 hours in cats. Every cat is different but this one seems to be quite the exception.
 
StephG said:
I am wondering about the diagnosis too!?

70 BG after all the kibble treats and his AM meal is a beautiful number. I fully expected it to double after all that but I only have some experience with ProZinc.
Google says max duration is 12 hours in cats. Every cat is different but this one seems to be quite the exception.
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That would also be good to retest Epi, but this time, with a big drop of blood, just to be sure that there is enough blood in the meter.
 
Capoo said:
I was even wondering if this cat is still diabetic at all.
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Me too !!!

Capoo said:
I have read the first email : was Epi diagnosed diabetic only with a spot check of his BG at the vet, or was he also showing some clinical signs of diabetes at home (terrible quantity of pees each day, always thirsty...)?
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He drank and pee a lot, yes.
They discover the terrible quantity of sugar during test before anesthesia (to remove the tartar of his teeths). Then to avoid the possibility of a higer sugar because of the stressful situation (going to the vet is nightmare for Epi), they tested it also while he was sleeping. And there were sugar in the pee also. Then they said that he was diabetic and ask to give me Caninsulin blablabla.

FOR THE FOOD :
I just slowly drop the quantity of food (was 60 gr, then 57 gr), keeping first the same food (Carnilove, 20% carb, 4400 cal/kg). I wanted to change for low carb wet food but for now I did nothing but drop the quantity of the old food.

Here is the MAIL I SENT TO THE VET, a recapitulative also for you.

"Here is what happened yesterday with the blood glucose, in order :

20:32 : BG = 3.9 mmol/L

+ 40 min after the first BG : usual SHOT 0.05 cc/ml of Caninsulin

+ 1:00 after shot : BG =3.7 mmol/L

+ 3:00 after shot : BG = 2.6 mmol/L !

+ 4:00 after shot : BG = 3.7 mmol/L

+ 5:00 after shot : BG =4.3 mmol/L

Between every BG test until here, Epi had honey & a little bit of his usual dry food.
Then just a little bit of wet food (low carb)

+ 6:00 after the shot : BG = 3.3 mmol/L

Usual dry food + honey

+ 7:00 after the shot : BG = 4.3 mmol/L (stop food until +8:00)

+8:00 after the shot : BG = 4.6 mmol/L

+9:00 after the shot : BG = 3.8 mmol/L (dry food until +10:00)

+ 10:00 after the shot (so 7 o'clock) : BG = 4.0 mmol/L (he is supposed to get the next shot in 1 hour)

+ 11:00 after the shot (8 o'clock) : BG = 3.8 mmol/L

Usual quantity of food gave to him. By the way I kept the same food than before, I just controled more the portion (60 gr per/day > 57 gr now). 28.5 gr of food (20% carb, 4400 cal/kg).

+ 12:00 after the shot (9 o'clock) : BG = 3.9 mmol/L. Is he still under the too big shot of Caninsulin ?

I didn't do the usual shot.
No symptoms except very tired and starving +++++ (and maybe something weird to one eye)

I just wait for your reply for the rest of the day...

Thank you"

Capoo said:
@Sif, can you test the meter on yourself?
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Ok ! I am at 97.2 @Capoo
 
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Maybe another test for him too. Would be 2 hours after his meal now and +13 from his last shot.
 
Capoo said:
That was maybe enough to "remove" the diabetes
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Did he have any infections that were treated or any teeth pulled?
Capoo could be on to something here.

Btw, my boy was diagnosed after losing weight, excessive drinking, always "starving" and leaving puddles in the litter box. His bloodwork came back at 560+! Just cutting out dry food dropped him to 350 range so that is one example of how much just cutting dry food out can help lower it. His diabetes was steroid induced.
 
Capoo said:
Can you describe precisely the problem with the eye?
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Yesterday one of the eyes seemed to have a bigger pupil (but I am not sure) and after, it seemed to be more closed than the other one.

Capoo said:
That was maybe enough to "remove" the diabetes.
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If it is that..................................!!!!!

StephG said:
Maybe another test for him too. Would be 2 hours after his meal now and +13 from his last shot.
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Ok, I do it.

What do you thing about my glucometer (I am at 97 mg/dl)
 
StephG said:
Did he have any infections that were treated or any teeth pulled?
Capoo could be on to something here.

Btw, my boy was diagnosed after losing weight, excessive drinking, always "starving" and leaving puddles in the litter box. His bloodwork came back at 560+! Just cutting out dry food dropped him to 350 range so that is one example of how much just cutting dry food out can help lower it. His diabetes was steroid induced.
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No treatment and no teeth pulled.

Epi has the same symptoms than your boy.
 
Sif said:
Yesterday one of the eyes seemed to have a bigger pupil (but I am not sure) and after, it seemed to be more closed than the other one

What do you thing about my glucometer (I am at 97 mg/dl)
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I think that eye thing could have been a low blood glucose reaction.

97 mg/dl for you is a normal reading so it seems like your meter is working.
 
Capoo said:
Maybe the removal of the tartar was enough to stop a small gingivitis.
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Do you think that gingivitis could make the blood sugar so high ?

I always thought that he drank a lot because he loves playing with water (and because of a story of territory with the other cat), and that he felt the need to eat because of a behaviour trouble....

In France before leaving for Iceland, my vet checked the blood and said "it is a little bit high but probably because of the stress. Now, he must loose weight in case of, to prevent diabetes".
But last week the level was apparently crazy (the vet talked about 20.7 mml/L so 372 mg/dl !!).

Last year he had a severe gastritis. We never knew why. Maybe because of an infection to the teeth (red gums, hobo's teeth...)...
 
Sif said:
No treatment and no teeth pulled.

Epi has the same symptoms than your boy.
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Chuck (my boy) went from 13 pounds to 10 in about 3 months and lost muscle mass as well. He lost another pound in the 3 weeks we tried diet control approach so that's when I knew it was time for insulin. He was wasting away and is only back up to 10.4 pounds after almost 4 months.
I wish I caught it sooner... He's still not regulated and is very reactive to any type of food.

I hope your boy is in remission.

Pain, stress, infection... They can all influence BG levels.

Have you tested him again yet?
 
At +14 : BG = 64 seulement !! Et avec une grosse goutte de sang.
@Capoo
@StephG

OOOPS, sorry I spoke in French........ so 64 mg/dl ONLY, and with a big drop of blood !
 
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StephG said:
Chuck (my boy) went from 13 pounds to 10 in about 3 months and lost muscle mass as well. He lost another pound in the 3 weeks we tried diet control approach so that's when I knew it was time for insulin. He was wasting away and is only back up to 10.4 pounds after almost 4 months.
I wish I caught it sooner... He's still not regulated and is very reactive to any type of food.
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Not easy.... I wish him and you the best of the best...
 
Sif said:
At +14 : BG = 64 seulement !! Et avec une grosse goutte de sang.
@Capoo
@StephG
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If it makes you feel more comfortable you can feed him a little more food but I think he's stable at this point. He's not dropping more than 20% and hasn't really for hours now.

I would call your vet and discuss this further. I suspect the diagnosis was wrong or he's in remission.
I really think he was probably high at the vet from stress and maybe his underlying dental issues that were taken care of with the cleaning.
You can continue to test throughout the day when you can to prove his BG is running normal numbers without insulin. Mainly for evidence to show your vet.
I would stick with the low carb wet food because it's better for him either way.
 
Do you think that I can be at work 4 hours this afternoon ? (My boss needs me). Or not safe ?
 
And if for some reason he does go up I would not give him insulin if his number is under 200 and if it is I would give a tiny amount to start over.
 
Sif said:
Do you think that I can be at work 4 hours this afternoon ? (My boss needs me). Or not safe ?
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I think he should be fine. It's been 2 hours since he ate and he's not dropping... You could leave a snack out if you feel better that way or give a small snack of his wet food right before you leave.

Anyone else have advice on this?
 
I have to take a quick nap. I'm sure you could use one too! If you check him again post his reading and just note how long since his last shot and how long since he ate and how much if you feed him more.

I'll be back in about 2 hours.

If the situation changes you can put the 911 tag on a new thread or a ? Tag to get attention.
 
Otherwise, given that there is a variance of 20% in meter readings, 70 and 65 are the same numbers.
 
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Hello--

Just read through the thread. I agree with the idea that what we are seeing doesn't look like the insulin from last night. I'm not going to state that definitely because I've never used this insulin and I don't have enough overall experience to be able to say for sure, but it has been a looooooong time since that shot, and Caninsulin is an in-and-out insulin, so....

I do think it would be safe for you to go to work at this point.
 
@Sif
While I was sleeping you had excellent help from Steph and Capoo. You did very well yourself with this baptism of fire (as Capoo said in French)! You have learned a lot in a very short time. :)
 
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@Kris & Teasel : thank you :)

So just now, at +16 = BG 72 mg/dl (with a little bit of stress because Epi just wanted to live and tried to a lot).
And a little bit of high carb before I go.

I'm going to leave for 4 hours soon.

Too bad that we cannot tag everybody but : THANK YOU A LOT FOR YOUR PRECIOUS HELP :kiss:

And probably see you after work, to tell you about the decision of the vet etc :D
 
Just read back through thread. This was not a good situation and thank you to all who helped see Sif and kitty through this dangerous situation. :bighug:

Steph and Sophie - very sorry I wasn't able to answer earlier tags (was trying to get a few hours sleep).

* Very relieved to hear that dose was skipped - I recommend testing again and if @Sif has to leave the house to leave some high carb food out for grazing.

Although Caninsulin is an in-out there can (depending on the cat) be a carryover BG lowering effect LONG into the next cycle - and possibly some residual effect into the cycle after that; an effect only made visible when doses are skipped. (Numbers may hover around in a lower range than normal without any insulin for anywhere from 12-24 hours before starting to drift upwards again.

@Sif - IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

- did the vet run a fructosamine test as part of the diagnostics in order to give your kitty the diabeties diagnosis?

- has your kitty ever tested positive for ketones?

- did you switch your kitty from a high carb to a low carb diet AFTER diagnosis and start of insulin treatment?

- if you did change to a low carb diet, WHEN did you do the change?

- Is this the first dose of insulin you have given? Could you have mismeasured the dose?

If you must leave the house I suggest you leave plenty of high carb food out for free grazing. (Situation is uncertain and HC food is safest option.

****** SIF: Please buy some urine ketone test strips when you are out (pharmacies have them).


Mogs
.
 
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Sif, I've been following this but not cutting in because you were in super helpful hands (and I'm a newbie).
But it is seeming like Epi is indeed heading toward (or in) remission. (Or he was never diabetic to start with.)
Good luck with the vet!!!
 
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Hi Sif, I skimmed all the post today and wanted to say, good job and so glad that you did not shoot insulin with a number that low.

When trying to steer numbers up it is best to give wet food as dry food takes to long. You can add a few drops to the wet food if kitty is eating.
 
Critter Mom said:
Very relieved to hear that dose was skipped - I recommend testing again and if @Sif has to leave the house to leave some high carb food out for grazing.
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Hi @Critter Mom ! Yes I did it before leaving, let food. And I will do it again, the testing.

Critter Mom said:
Although Caninsulin is an in-out there can (depending on the cat) be a carryover BG lowering effect LONG into the next cycle - and possibly some residual effect into the cycle after that; an effect only made visible when doses are skipped. (Numbers may hover around in a lower range than normal without any insulin for anywhere from 12-24 hours before starting to drift upwards again.
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I don't really understand (maybe because my brain looks like jam just now... could please explain it to me ?

Critter Mom said:
- did the vet run a fructosamine test as part of the diagnostics in order to give your kitty the diabeties diagnosis?
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No ! That's why I asked to do it the next check up... next appointment on thursday (it was supposed to be on the 6th of january but with the events...): Any recommendation about what to ask or do on thursday ?

Critter Mom said:
- has your kitty ever tested positive for ketones?
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Yes and until yesterdaym nothing ! I have the Bayer Keto-diastrix strips: I will test him again tonight.

Critter Mom said:
did you switch your kitty from a high carb to a low carb diet AFTER diagnosis and start of insulin treatment?
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I just drop the quantity of food (dry food, Carnilove, 60gr to 57 gr so 3gr less than before, 20% of carb, 4440 cal/kg) in progressively, in one week because the quantity was too high. I did after the diagnosis and the insulin, right.

Critter Mom said:
Is this the first dose of insulin you have given? Could you have mismeasured the dose?
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The second of the day. I think no mismeasured, we both check with my husband.
 
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