12/22. Elmo...183 AMPS.

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MrWorfMen's Mom said:
It doesn't really mean you don't have a forum to back you up because there are many of us using pet meters who can guide folks. It does however mean you can't blindly follow ALL the advice you get and must learn the techniques, principles and nuances of this dance from the forum and learn to read your own cat such that you know what the reduction points are using the pet meter for YOUR cat. Believe me, even using a human meter and the reference reduction points, don't work for all cats. They simply provide a guideline to work from. If I didn't have this forum, I would still be sitting here scratching my head raw with Menace on some really extraordinary dose of insulin I'm sure. :)
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Yes, this is exactly the way I was thinking, Linda. I know that you use the AT meter with Miss Levemir Menace. I'd probably do the same thing. I have to say that we, the users of ProZinc who don't have a set protocol just general guidelines, get quite comfortable figuring our own kitty out and there's no standard meter among us. We're still able to help each other out. Food for thought.
 
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Carol & Murphy said:
That's what I use, Linda, the Freestyle Freedom Lite. I didn't realize the AT2 strips were going up in price, and I am so disappointed to hear about the new pet meter - I had high hopes for that one.
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They may not be going up in your neck of the woods. It seems the pharmacy I deal with did not "keep up" with pricing for quite some time so we got hit with a $17.00 increase all at once when tax was included. Not sure if it was another price increase that made them realize their mistake or not. I often wondered why my price wasn't much higher than yours given the state of our dollar and I guess this explains it.

I just did a bit of surfing to see if I could find the Freestyle Freedom Lite meter because I've never seen one when out shopping and routinely go look to see what each retailer carries. It seems it has been discontinued. RATS! I guess my FS Lite is going to have to do because the only other option that uses the FS strips has all sorts of useless programming to tell me how much insulin to give Menace which is probably going to make it a PIA to use!
 
I see Elmo is being a good boy again today although interesting that he seems to be running a tad higher than on the drop less. Might be food timing difference or his meds taking more effect but it sure is interesting to see how things go day to day. :D
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
They may not be going up in your neck of the woods. It seems the pharmacy I deal with did not "keep up" with pricing for quite some time so we got hit with a $17.00 increase all at once when tax was included. Not sure if it was another price increase that made them realize their mistake or not. I often wondered why my price wasn't much higher than yours given the state of our dollar and I guess this explains it.

I just did a bit of surfing to see if I could find the Freestyle Freedom Lite meter because I've never seen one when out shopping and routinely go look to see what each retailer carries. It seems it has been discontinued. RATS! I guess my FS Lite is going to have to do because the only other option that uses the FS strips has all sorts of useless programming to tell me how much insulin to give Menace which is probably going to make it a PIA to use!
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I got a free Freestyle Lite (not Freedom Lite) meter when I bought my first pack of 100 strips. It looks identical to the AT meter except it has an extra button for lighting up the screen. Do you have one of these, Linda? I have it as a backup but haven't even set it up or tried it out.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
We're still able to help each other out. Food for thought.
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I hate to say it Kris, but I think the fact that there are just guidelines rather than a more regimented protocol for ProZinc/PZI and Vetsulin/Caninsulin forums makes folks think more about the cat and meter in use. The TR "rules" get quoted chapter and verse because it is so precise and sometimes the meter being used is not acknowledged initially. I've had to step in a few times to point out pet meter usage even though it was in the signature.

Kris & Teasel said:
I got a free Freestyle Lite (not Freedom Lite) meter when I bought my first pack of 100 strips. It looks identical to the AT meter except it has an extra button for lighting up the screen.
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Yes that's the one I have. It's the same but smaller and mine doesn't beep loud enough to tell me when the strip has filled and the small size makes the screen harder to see. My AT2 is much louder. I was hoping to get the Freedom Lite for the larger screen but alas my Xmas wish has been dashed! I wonder if I somehow made it onto Santa's naughty list??! :woot:
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I see Elmo is being a good boy again today although interesting that he seems to be running a tad higher than on the drop less. Might be food timing difference or his meds taking more effect but it sure is interesting to see how things go day to day. :D
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I know :cat:......he came and ate more about 30 minutes before his +1.5 BG taken so that may have raised the +1.5. Will be good to talk to knowledgeable vet on Tuesday about the connection of diabetes and thyroid. Still believing Elmo's thyroid will also help him lower his BGs. Takes the meds several weeks to take effect if I remember right from our first thyroid kitty years ago. Enjoying so much being a fly on the wall as you and Kris discuss meters. I'm not sure I'm ready to do Lantus with AT tho...still feel like a newbie in many ways:rolleyes:
 
Beth 73 said:
I'm not sure I'm ready to do Lantus with AT tho...still feel like a newbie in many ways:rolleyes:
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Beth, we all have a little trepidation when changing insulin, somewhat like, but not nearly as intense as the day you gave insulin for the first time. In a day or so, you get a "feel" for what's going on and how the reaction differs. Using the same principles you've learned with Vetsulin and understanding when the nadir usually occurs with Lantus along with the appropriate warning, and reduction numbers, Bob's your Uncle. It's really not going to be nearly as scary as you think. You test Elmo more than enough to keep him safe no matter what insulin you are using so you're golden! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I hate to say it Kris, but I think the fact that there are just guidelines rather than a more regimented protocol for ProZinc/PZI and Vetsulin/Caninsulin forums makes folks think more about the cat and meter in use. The TR "rules" get quoted chapter and verse because it is so precise and sometimes the meter being used is not acknowledged initially. I've had to step in a few times to point out pet meter usage even though it was in the signature.

I've wondered whether this could sometimes be an issue because of the protocol. I've truly learned to appreciate how I have to think through what's happening with MY kitty when I use ProZinc. Having a set protocol can make you feel calmer and more confident but we both know only too well that kitty will do what kitty will do. I've always been a fan of learning for myself how things work and being able to make my own judgments once I have the fundamentals under my belt.



Yes that's the one I have. It's the same but smaller and mine doesn't beep loud enough to tell me when the strip has filled and the small size makes the screen harder to see. My AT2 is much louder. I was hoping to get the Freedom Lite for the larger screen but alas my Xmas wish has been dashed! I wonder if I somehow made it onto Santa's naughty list??! :woot:
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I've wondered whether this could sometimes be an issue because of the protocol. I've truly learned to appreciate how I have to think through what's happening with MY kitty when I use ProZinc. Having a set protocol can make you feel calmer and more confident but we both know only too well that kitty will do what kitty will do. I've always been a fan of learning for myself how things work and being able to make my own judgments once I have the fundamentals under my belt.


You're right. It is smaller. I know the beep volume on the AT is adjustable but I hadn't checked that on the FS meter.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I've truly learned to appreciate how I have to think through what's happening with MY kitty when I use ProZinc.
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Exactly the way I have had to approach my little one. She doesn't follow the same pattern as other kitties and while there are folks with high dose cats on the site, very few who are still active on a regular basis, were dealing with IAA alone because usually it accompanies Acro. Many of the same principles apply and I learned an immense amount from the counsel of other high dose kitty parents. But there is no protocol. You can sort of follow either TR or SLGS but with high dose cats it's often an up one hill, down another type of scenario rather than slow consistent progress toward regulation. I used the principles of TR and kind of customized something for Menace between TR and SLGS because I can't follow TR implicitly anyway due to her food choices.

I personally think it's very important to help new pet parents understand their cat and why we recommend what we do, so they can look back later and decide for themselves. I love working with Beth because I've watched her learn so much and she now makes a recommendation and we know she has her thinking cap on!

Beth are your ears burning???!!:bighug:
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Exactly the way I have had to approach my little one. She doesn't follow the same pattern as other kitties and while there are folks with high dose cats on the site, very few who are still active on a regular basis, were dealing with IAA alone because usually it accompanies Acro. Many of the same principles apply and I learned an immense amount from the counsel of other high dose kitty parents. But there is no protocol. You can sort of follow either TR or SLGS but with high dose cats it's often an up one hill, down another type of scenario rather than slow consistent progress toward regulation. I used the principles of TR and kind of customized something for Menace between TR and SLGS because I can't follow TR implicitly anyway due to her food choices.

I personally think it's very important to help new pet parents understand their cat and why we recommend what we do, so they can look back later and decide for themselves. I love working with Beth because I've watched her learn so much and she now makes a recommendation and we know she has her thinking cap on!

Beth are your ears burning???!!:bighug:
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Yes, Beth has come a long way in a very short time! Hear that Beth?

Even if your kitty is text book in his/her responses a bean has to learn to think for him/herself. ECID and we can't all be lock step in what we do. As time goes on we learn more of the nuances and how to work with them. I have another mantra: "I know what I know." (That'd be the gut talking ...)
 
I don't think that would raise any suspicions. If you wrap the box in plain brown paper and label it a gift it should be fine. I'll double check the Customs before proceeding. I know you can't send drugs or pet food (we have way over the top pet food manufacturing inspection/documentation requirements here:rolleyes:) but I can't see why a glucometer would be a problem.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I see Elmo is being a good boy again today although interesting that he seems to be running a tad higher than on the drop less.
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This is the problem I found with trying to use low doses at low numbers with Vetsulin. Fatten the dose and instead of lowering the whole curve you tend to start getting tick marks (an earlier, steeper drop to a lowish number by +2 - +3 and then numbers bump back up again straight away).


Mogs
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Hello all:).....Elmo PMPS is 188......thinking a regular .25 again tonight ? What says the Jedi Counsel ??? Also, did some looking at my SS and saw there is a direct correlation between PMPS on 12/19 ( after vet visit but before first full thyroid pill later that night) and vet visit....the BGs started going up 12/20 thru today, 12/22 compared to 12/11 thru 12/18....will be sure to show this to new vet on next Tuesday.....might be his sweet little body is trying to right itself after the too high dose 12/19 night and 12/20 morning....just pondering :rolleyes:
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I don't think that would raise any suspicions. If you wrap the box in plain brown paper and label it a gift it should be fine. I'll double check the Customs before proceeding. I know you can't send drugs or pet food (we have way over the top pet food manufacturing inspection/documentation requirements here:rolleyes:) but I can't see why a glucometer would be a problem.
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Hey Linda, saw you and Carol posting about the Freedom Lite, got on Amazon and bought one( $33 instead of $18)...I was excited !!!
 
Critter Mom said:
This is the problem I found with trying to use low doses at low numbers with Vetsulin. Fatten the dose and instead of lowering the whole curve you tend to start getting tick marks (an earlier, steeper drop to a lowish number by +2 - +3 and then numbers bump back up again straight away).


Mogs
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Mogs, I am so ready to get off this vetsulin junk...I will do whatever it takes to calmly go with Lantus...ordering tomorrow and just now ordered my human meter/strips....makes me CHEESED that vets even sell it then have the guts to say" well, cats are hard to regulate"....well,yah, on this trash it is:eek::mad::eek::mad:
 
Critter Mom said:
This is the problem I found with trying to use low doses at low numbers with Vetsulin. Fatten the dose and instead of lowering the whole curve you tend to start getting tick marks (an earlier, steeper drop to a lowish number by +2 - +3 and then numbers bump back up again straight away).


Mogs
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And I know ECID, but I will be forever grateful that our vetsulin roads were/are similar....no words, Mogs, simply no words :bighug::bighug::bighug::)
 
Beth 73 said:
I'm not sure I'm ready to do Lantus with AT tho...still feel like a newbie in many ways:rolleyes:
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I use an Alphatrak and treated with Lantus. Plus I use international units. Even if my PTSD didn't make the busyness of the Lantus board unbearably overwhelming to my senses (makes me completely panic just to look at the thread list - seriously) if I had needed a lot of support with dosing I didn't stand an icecubes chance of getting meaningful support on that board. (I felt that AT users used to be looked upon as lesser mortals; don't know whether that has now changed. Hope so.) An experienced member on Relaxed Lantus gave me a bit of initial coaching and following Saoirse's data helped me to do the rest from thereon in.

I used the TRP as a foundation for Saoirse's dosing but I had to adapt it to suit both her needs and my ability to monitor her given my own health problems. I picked up some tips on tapering from the RL board and she achieved remission despite my making rather 'heretical' dosing decisions for her. Slavish adherence to TRP is not The Only Way for a Lantus cat to go OTJ. (We had a goodly number of successes on RL.)

If you look at Saoirse's spreadsheet you'll notice that I customised the ranges to suit the Alphatrak. (No-one was going to be much help to me if I had any dosing conundrums to address so that liberated me from any requirement to stick to a lowest common denominator system suitable for addressing most of the needs of a large group of people: I was free to design a bespoke spreadsheet to suit my treatment objectives and Saoirse's monitoring needs. Besides, having to try to mentally interpret 'blue' backgrounds for what were 'green' numbers was a complete head wreck.) The first thing I did was to change the colour palette to more muted tones; the bright colours used on 'classic' spreadsheets triggers my PTSD symptoms (they are like 'visual shrieks' to my nervous system).

To determine dosing thresholds I used the Merck normal feline BG reference range given to me by my vet and some guidance notes on ranges to use with AT meters provided in the Roomp-Rand documentation to establish what I used as my 'green' range. I subdivided the green range into three shades based on research I had done into the BG levels at which beta cell damage may start to occur. Anyone looking to offer dosing advice probably wouldn't know where to start with interpreting Saoirses's spreadsheets but they worked for us like a charm.

One feature I added which I found extraordinarily helpful was trend tracking: daily/weekly average BGs and maximum BGs give a much better, more meaningful picture of overall progress - at a glance - than trying to 'gestalt' a trend from days' worth of individual test results. The running averages pick up even a subtle drift in numbers; something that perhaps only a savant might be able to do by staring at a large cluster of multicoloured data.


Mogs
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Kris & Teasel said:
I've always been a fan of learning for myself how things work and being able to make my own judgments once I have the fundamentals under my belt.
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Same here.

I see from another of Beth's threads recently that you taught physics and chemistry; my favourite subjects, along with maths. I adore physics.


Mogs
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I'm wondering if the increased thyroid med is having any impact yet, albeit small...specifically if it could be influencing Elmo's ability to use his own and the exogenous insulin a little better. And using it better would mean he doesn't need the extra punch and might need less because the insulin is pushing his numbers down earlier setting off a little bounce leading to higher pre-shots. Pure speculation on my part but that dose increase should be doing something and who knows how long before you see even a small effect even if it does takes cats as long as humans to see the full effect of an increase.

So I vote 0.25 minus a small drop tonight.
 
Critter Mom said:
I use an Alphatrak and treated with Lantus. Plus I use international units. Even if my PTSD didn't make the busyness of the Lantus board unbearably overwhelming to my senses (makes me completely panic just to look at the thread list - seriously) if I had needed a lot of support with dosing I didn't stand an icecubes chance of getting meaningful support on that board. (I felt that AT users used to be looked upon as lesser mortals; don't know whether that has now changed. Hope so.) An experienced member on Relaxed Lantus gave me a bit of initial coaching and following Saoirse's data helped me to do the rest from thereon in.

I used the TRP as a foundation for Saoirse's dosing but I had to adapt it to suit both her needs and my ability to monitor her given my own health problems. I picked up some tips on tapering from the RL board and she achieved remission despite my making slightly 'heretical' dosing decisions for her. TRP is not the Only Way for a Lantus cat to go OTJ. (We had a goodly number of successes on RL.)

If you look at Saoirse's spreadsheet you'll notice that I customised the ranges to suit the Alphatrak. (No-one was going to be much help so I tailored the shading to suit my treatment objectives for Saoirse. Besides, having to try to mentally interpret 'blue' backgrounds for what were 'green' numbers was a complete head wreck.) The first thing I did was to change the colour palette to more muted tones; the bright colours used on 'classic' spreadsheets triggers my PTSD symptoms (they are like 'visual shrieks' to my nervous system).

To determine dosing thresholds I used the Merck normal feline BG reference range given to me by my vet and some guidance notes on ranges to use with AT meters provided in the Roomp-Rand documentation to establish what I used as my 'green' range. I subdivided the green range into three shades based on research I had done into the BG levels at which beta cell damage may start to occur. Anyone looking to offer dosing advice probably wouldn't know where to start with interpreting Saoirses's spreadsheets but they worked for us like a charm.

One feature I added which I found extraordinarily helpful was trend tracking: daily/weekly average BGs and maximum BGs give a much better, more meaningful picture of overall progress - at a glance - than trying to get a feel for what's happening from days' worth of individual test results. The running averages pick up even a subtle drift in numbers; something that perhaps only a savant might be able to do by staring at a large cluster of multicoloured data.


Mogs
.
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I hate dogma.
 
Critter Mom said:
I use an Alphatrak and treated with Lantus. Plus I use international units. Even if my PTSD didn't make the busyness of the Lantus board unbearably overwhelming to my senses (makes me completely panic just to look at the thread list - seriously) if I had needed a lot of support with dosing I didn't stand an icecubes chance of getting meaningful support on that board. (I felt that AT users used to be looked upon as lesser mortals; don't know whether that has now changed. Hope so.) An experienced member on Relaxed Lantus gave me a bit of initial coaching and following Saoirse's data helped me to do the rest from thereon in.

I used the TRP as a foundation for Saoirse's dosing but I had to adapt it to suit both her needs and my ability to monitor her given my own health problems. I picked up some tips on tapering from the RL board and she achieved remission despite my making slightly 'heretical' dosing decisions for her. TRP is not the Only Way for a Lantus cat to go OTJ. (We had a goodly number of successes on RL.)

If you look at Saoirse's spreadsheet you'll notice that I customised the ranges to suit the Alphatrak. (No-one was going to be much help so I tailored the shading to suit my treatment objectives for Saoirse. Besides, having to try to mentally interpret 'blue' backgrounds for what were 'green' numbers was a complete head wreck.) The first thing I did was to change the colour palette to more muted tones; the bright colours used on 'classic' spreadsheets triggers my PTSD symptoms (they are like 'visual shrieks' to my nervous system).

To determine dosing thresholds I used the Merck normal feline BG reference range given to me by my vet and some guidance notes on ranges to use with AT meters provided in the Roomp-Rand documentation to establish what I used as my 'green' range. I subdivided the green range into three shades based on research I had done into the BG levels at which beta cell damage may start to occur. Anyone looking to offer dosing advice probably wouldn't know where to start with interpreting Saoirses's spreadsheets but they worked for us like a charm.

One feature I added which I found extraordinarily helpful was trend tracking: daily/weekly average BGs and maximum BGs give a much better, more meaningful picture of overall progress - at a glance - than trying to get a feel for what's happening from days' worth of individual test results. The running averages pick up even a subtle drift in numbers; something that perhaps only a savant might be able to do by staring at a large cluster of multicoloured data.


Mogs
.
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Yes, a thousand times, yes!!!
 
You ALL are BRAINiacs ;)......oh my goodness ....I continued to be gobsmacked with you all. And here I am a little former first grade teacher in the country;):)
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I personally think it's very important to help new pet parents understand their cat and why we recommend what we do, so they can look back later and decide for themselves. I love working with Beth because I've watched her learn so much and she now makes a recommendation and we know she has her thinking cap on!
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I also think that taking time to thoroughly explain reasoning may also help people who 'lurk' on a thread. It is educational. It helps the member seeking advice and may also help other non-posting followers of the thread, plus the knowledge then remains in the board archive.

The continued success of FDMB relies on education like this. Members come and members go. New members need to take up the pay-forward baton so that those who join after them will continue to receive help and support here.

And I could not agree with you more about Beth, Linda: it is a delight to work with her! :)


Mogs
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Kris & Teasel said:
Science geek through and through with some art for interest. My hero is Leonardo da Vinci.
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Mercy, Kris. You astound me :)
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I'm wondering if the increased thyroid med is having any impact yet, albeit small...specifically if it could be influencing Elmo's ability to use his own and the exogenous insulin a little better. And using it better would mean he doesn't need the extra punch and might need less because the insulin is pushing his numbers down earlier setting off a little bounce leading to higher pre-shots. Pure speculation on my part but that dose increase should be doing something and who knows how long before you see even a small effect even if it does takes cats as long as humans to see the full effect of an increase.

So I vote 0.25 minus a small drop tonight.
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Keep pondering, Linda , what DrPat(naturopath) said the other day ...that Elmo's body is working at righting itself...homeostasis , I think she said. As she explained it it made great sense,especially since I'm drawn to all things holistic where the body is given time to work with itself....
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I'm wondering if the increased thyroid med is having any impact yet, albeit small...specifically if it could be influencing Elmo's ability to use his own and the exogenous insulin a little better. And using it better would mean he doesn't need the extra punch and might need less because the insulin is pushing his numbers down earlier setting off a little bounce leading to higher pre-shots. Pure speculation on my part but that dose increase should be doing something and who knows how long before you see even a small effect even if it does takes cats as long as humans to see the full effect of an increase.

So I vote 0.25 minus a small drop tonight.
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I thought it took a little time for a thyroid dose increase to have an effect.
 
Ok, ya'll....I have one vote for .25 and one vote for .25 minus little drop....not sure myself..going to look at numbers again...I have about 10 minutes
 
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