Referral to specialist?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ann & Liz

Member Since 2016
If we need to request a referral to a feline diabetes specialist in UK. Does anyone know where may be good? Our vet doesn't seem to be very sure about her situation as to if there is another health issue possibly causing her problems. We have requested a change in insulin as she seems to be very "flat" for several hours after shot. Vet will look at what he can get hold of and let us know. This, we know, also could be caused by high bg or another health issue. Will be getting ketones tested today at vets. She is 16y but seems to be so generally lethargic it is becoming quite concerning. She has bright spots, usually in last 2 hours before next shot but not much in between.
 
I would not recommend Langford in Bristol for diabetic referrals. Our vets use them as external consultants for diabetes and Saoirse was referred to them last year (with damaging and - in my very considered opinion - life limiting consequences for her). An example: Langford FD specialists review glucose curves for our vets. In the early stages of Saoirse's treatment they sent in Saoirse's curve data to Langford for assessment. At the time Saoirse was on 3IU BID of Caninsulin and - at the former vet's insistence and much to my disgust - was being fed Hill's w/d dry food (essentially kitty cornflakes). Saoirse's BGs were in the range from mid-20s at preshot to high mid-teens at nadir (Alphatrak, mmol/L). The specialist pronounced that Saoirse was "a true diabetic" who would "never achieve remission and [would] require insulin for the rest of her life." A change of diet shortly after - and a much reduced dose of Caninsulin - saw Saoirse almost immediately back to BG levels much closer to the normal range and in less than a fortnight it became unsafe to continue treating her with Caninsulin. A change to a long-acting, gentler insulin and 2½ months later Saoirse was well and truly in remission.

Saoirse was later referred to Langford for specialist diagnostics. We got there to be told that the procedures for which our own vet recommended the referral could cause serious complications so they were not performed. I was also concerned about the re-emergence of Saoirse's pancreatitis symptoms after ceasing insulin microdosing and wanted to put her back on a daily microdose of Lantus. The specialist put a block on her receiving such treatment. Instead she ignored my advice about Saoirse being highly med-sensitive and insisted she be put on thrice a day high doses of buprenorphine. I went into Langford with a happy, fairly healthy cat. After 36 hours on the buprenorphine treatment I had a cat sick with a pancreatitis flare and no hope of getting the treatment that was actually working for her. The specialist ignored all of Saoirse's BG data and the detailed clinical notes I maintained in her daily journal. Her attitude toward my input as her caregiver was dismissive. She came across as professionally arrogant in the extreme and, in Saoirse's case, valued her own opinion more than the wellbeing of her patient.

Not exactly a glowing advert. Furious doesn't come close to how I felt then; I am still angry to this day because of the price my beloved girl paid for that woman's professional arrogance and lack of diabetes knowledge.

I'm not saying for one minute that all specialists will be like the ones I've had dealings with at Langford. On the contrary, the specialist opthalmologist Saoirse was referred to was probably the most excellent vet I've ever met and I had complete confidence in both her skill and her interest in her patient. She valued and respected my input as Saoirse's guardian and the hospital proactively kept in close consultation with me about Saoirse's insulin requirements while she was with them (out of remission at that stage).

Based on my experience and the shared experiences of others worldwide who are members here it appears that there are many general practice and specialist vets whose diabetes knowledge is sorely deficient so it's something to be aware of when making treatment choices for your cat. With the benefit of hindsight, if it were at all possible I would seek to interview any diabetic specialist to whom my cat might be referred in future before committing to letting them see my cat or review her case.

Also be aware that if there is a difference of opinion between the treating general practice vet and that of a specialist, in the UK the specialist's opinion will overrule that of the treating vet. Even if the specialist's opinion may result in poorer treatment options for the patient, the treating vets would be legally exposed should they ignore the advice of the specialist. After what happened to us at Langford my vets were put under strict instruction NEVER to refer Saoirse's case to an external specialist without seeking my specific permission to so do.

While I always work in partnership as best I can with our vets (and I always counsel others to do the same) I have learned far more here about how to successfully manage my cat's diabetic needs than from any of the vets involved in that particular aspect of her care. (The same holds true for chronic pancreatitis.) What I have learned here helped me to save my cat's life and gave me the knowledge and tools I needed to treat her diabetes safely and successfully. (Some of the staff at our vets have actually said to my face that I now know far more about feline diabetes than they do.)

FDMB helped me to learn enough in the first instance to get past a vet who refused to run tests and wrote Saoirse off as an "old lady" so that I could actually secure a diabetes diagnosis and get the treatment she desperately needed (thankfully before she could develop ketone complications). Were it not for FDMB and Dr Lisa Pierson (catinfo.org) my cat would probably have had a fatal hypoglycaemic episode within weeks of her diagnosis. Through what I learned here I was able to get a much better insulin for my beloved girl. I have also broadened my knowledge here as a result of being able to study the spreadsheets of other cats plus hearing the experiences shared by their caregivers about their kitties' clinical signs helped me to make better treatment choices for Saoirse. General practice vets just don't have the time to research as much as the members here (the most experienced of whom eat, sleep and breathe feline diabetes) nor are they likely to see anything even vaguely approaching the volume of data we have available here to show how cats respond to different insulins. (A lot of them actively discourage home BG testing. :rolleyes: )

As you know I've been following your threads and I've looked at Lila's spreadsheet. What you're reporting about Lila's response to Caninsulin is not at all an unfamiliar story here. I've got some experiences to share with you and some questions for you. Questions to follow imminently.


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Questions:

1. What weight was Lila when she was diagnosed?

2. Was Lila underweight, overweight, or at ideal weight at Dx?

3. How much does Lila weigh now and is she under/over/ideal weight?

3. What was she being fed at diagnosis (carb %, wet or dry)?

4. Please confirm the carb % of the food(s) she's eating now and whether she is getting any dry food.

5. Did your vet put Lila on a starting dose of 2.0 IU Caninsulin? If not, please can you give details of starting dose, how quickly it was raised to 2.0IU and what step size the vet used for dose increases (1/4, 1/2, full units???).

6. Do you have any BG numbers measured at the vets at time of diagnosis and for the earlier days of her treatment?

7. Does her mood dip and lethargy reappear shortly after receiving an insulin dose?

8. Is her behaviour subdued or withdrawn at all? Over time has she started complaining about/resisting injections or does she ever try to avoid them altogether (e.g. trying to hide after her preshot meal)?

ETA:

9. Have you noticed any other changes to clinical signs or behaviours since start of treatment. It is not uncommon for a cat to be a bit lethargic in the first week or so at start of treatment as their body needs a bit of time to adjust to using the 'foreign' insulin but in Lila's case was there ever a period shortly after start of treatment where she seemed to improve a bit before starting to show the concerning signs that are now present?



Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Thankyou, Mogs, will answer questions this evening. And give a little more background to Lila's history too.
 
I don't know about availability on the Island but if you fancy a day trip I can recommend Anderson Moore's in Otterbourne, near Winchester. They only take referrals from other vets but Cappuccino has been there and I was very happy with them. Friends of mine have taken other animals there and were also happy with the treatment. Are you insured? If not they are expensive, but they will continue to advise by e mail. They do consult with other vets and I'm sure would be happy to have a discussion with your vet if they need advice. They have a number of internal medicine specialists with an interest in diabetes, some of whom are RVC trained.
 
Excellent! The more info we get, the better suggestions we may be able to make to help you.


Mogs
.
Excellent! The more info we get, the better suggestions we may be able to make to help you.


Mogs
.
Will try to outline Lila's history and story to date. Lila has until this year been very healthy. In June she showed signs of facial pain syndrome (similar to trigeminal nerve pain in humans) which we had already experienced with our male burmese. She had a dental (early July)including extractions. Her recovery from anaesthetic was traumatic as she had excess mucus nasal/throat area and vets had to suction and treat with steroids to reduce swelling. We were advised that her pre anaesthetic bloods showed kidney problems that would need ongoing monitoring. When Lila was discharged the next day it was obvious that she had been incontinent of urine whilst in hospital we queried this and were advised that Lila had not used her litter tray and had been urinating in her bed. This was shocking to us as was not something that she had ever previously done or has happened since. This still perplexes us as to what that was all about. Lila is a very fastidious cat and this does not add up at all. Lila was prescribed Gabapentin prior to surgery for the pain and this she remained on until just before her diabetes diagnosis. As the pain syndrome can be aggravated by dental work. We contacted our vet to request bloods/urine for kidneys as we thought that this was the cause of her symptoms - lethargy, weakness hind limbs, loss of muscle tone, slight weight loss. At this point she was on Hills KD (wet). Which is high in carbs (40%). So on 20.09.16 she had sugar in her urine and bg was 34. The decision was made that treatment would start the next day and we took Lila in to have our lesson in injecting/testing. At this point her bg was 27. Her starting dose was 2u twice daily. After this all results are on SS. Lila (prior to the dental) had become possibly slightly heavier than usual although we did not weigh her but she seemed to be more weighty than usual (certainly not seriously overweight though) and this had only been the case for a few months. At that stage we also had Lila's companion alive (Oliver) and they were fed on dried food and grazed so it was difficult to tell if she was over eating at that stage. Sadly Oliver was run over on 19th July. We miss him terribly and we are sure that Lila must do to. At diagnosis Lila weighed 9lbs 4ozs and this is still the case although fluctuates down a bit at times. For her size she is probably slightly under weight. Lila has been on 0% carbs (if carb calculator correct)(wet food) since diagnosis until this weekend when we changed to Lily's Kitchen (5.9%) wet food only. As we thought 0% may be causing weakness. Really Lila's weakness has been in existence before insulin commenced so it is difficult to blame it fully. She has not shied away from or avoided injections. She is very "flat" a lot of the time and can sometimes be found just laying flat out on the floor. The bright spots that she has give us hope but are shortlived. Since the dose has been 1u ( since yesterday) she has had longer brighter spells though and her demeanor seems better. She revisited places in the garden this afternoon that she hasn't seen for a few weeks. It is marked that she sleeps deeply after her injection for probably at least 4 hours. The vet has ordered some pro zinc insulin as we were querying the Caninsulin. He felt that Lila should return to her 2u dose or even increase to 2.5 as the lower numbers on Sunday were probably a one off! Hope this gives an idea of the situation.
 
I don't know about availability on the Island but if you fancy a day trip I can recommend Anderson Moore's in Otterbourne, near Winchester. They only take referrals from other vets but Cappuccino has been there and I was very happy with them. Friends of mine have taken other animals there and were also happy with the treatment. Are you insured? If not they are expensive, but they will continue to advise by e mail. They do consult with other vets and I'm sure would be happy to have a discussion with your vet if they need advice. They have a number of internal medicine specialists with an interest in diabetes, some of whom are RVC trained.
Thank you that is useful to know. We have visited them before as our boxer has chronic pancreatitis.
 
Hi, We are on the Isle of Wight ( yes lovely & sunny here too.) Lila loves the sun and had a little lie outside earlier.
Hi Ann, also waving hi from Surrey! Lucky you living on the island - I grew up in Shanklin and Ryde, went to school in Sandown... love the place but sadly don't get back much these days.
Best of luck with Lila.

Diana
 
Looking at her spreadsheet those 20 point drops are huge - even for Caninsulin, so I am not surprised she is flattened for a few hours after her injection, I think she has bounced from that 4.5 yesterday so I wouldn't feel inclined to increase her dose just yet but give it a few more cycles, bounces can take up to 6 cycles to clear. Cappuccino did similar but I did start to see better numbers after her food was changed. Prozinc seems to be a gentler insulin and gets rid of those huge drops. In the early days all she seemed to do was sleep and it took a few weeks and some weight gain before she started to seem better, at that point I fed on demand rather than the strict 12 hour regime she has now. It is early days and it can take a few weeks to see clinical improvements, it isn't just about the numbers so the things to look out for are the weight gain, frequency and volume of urination, general demeanour, grooming and 'doing normal stuff'. Do you check her urine for glucose and ketones? I noticed the glucose in the urine disappeared once her numbers were a lot steadier. Cappuccino still does the post shot snooze but she is a lot livelier when her numbers are lower.

Please note that shortly after Cappuccino switched to Prozinc she was entered into a clinical trail at the RVC so we don't know if her current numbers are down to the insulin or if she is getting the trial drug and not placebo, she also has an individualised regime supervised by the specialist just in case anyone is tempted to do what I am doing with her insulin doses - please don't! There is an excellent protocol for Prozinc in the stickys in the Prozinc forum if you do switch and lots of good advice to be had there as well.
 
Looking at her spreadsheet those 20 point drops are huge - even for Caninsulin, so I am not surprised she is flattened for a few hours after her injection,
This.

It's one of the things that screamed at me from the spreadsheet, Alexi. Saoirse had a couple of massive drops when on Caninsulin but Lila's plunge was even worse.

(@Elizabeth and Bertie - tagging you here because previously you've expressed interest in Caninsulin responses such as this so I thought you would want to have a look at Lila's spreadsheet - AMPS 434, +5 97 - a drop of 337 points (and a possibility that the nadir may have been earlier and lower)!!!)


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Ann & Liz -

I'm desperately sorry to hear about Oliver (lost Saoirse's brother Amadán the same way).

I'm also very, very sorry to hear your boxer has chronic pancreatitis (something I've had to learn more about than I would ever wish on anyone).

:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:


Mogs
.
 
She is very "flat" a lot of the time and can sometimes be found just laying flat out on the floor. The bright spots that she has give us hope but are shortlived. Since the dose has been 1u ( since yesterday) she has had longer brighter spells though and her demeanor seems better. She revisited places in the garden this afternoon that she hasn't seen for a few weeks. It is marked that she sleeps deeply after her injection for probably at least 4 hours.

[Emphasis mine]

At the end of the day what we are doing here is all about improving our little ones' health and quality of life; clinical signs MUST be taken into account alongside BG data. If your cat is feeling better on less Caninsulin that would be a signal to me that the higher doses aren't doing her any good or, more importantly, that Caninsulin itself is really hammering her system.

Here's an excerpt from Saoirse's journal during the time she was being treated with Caninsulin:

Lethargic, grumpy, withdrawn (often on floor behind curtain) during periods of Caninsulin peak action. Tries to hide in most inaccessible place she can find after pre-dose feeds and looks to be avoiding the injection which she knows comes next. Protests and tries to wriggle away when I am trying to give her the injection. Really doesn't like the insulin therapy. Mood/sociability markedly better when insulin dose wearing off: it's like having two different cats.

Any of that sound familiar? Other members have reported similar reactions in their cats to Vetsulin/Caninsulin treatment.

When Saoirse was switched to Lantus she still had her post-dose snoozes but they would only be for about an hour or so and thereafter she was a happy camper for the rest of the cycle. With the change to Lantus I got 'my cat' back.

If I were in your shoes I'd opt for the switch to Prozinc (the only choice available to you at the moment under UK cascade rules). I'd also look to the FDMB Prozinc guide for recommendations on starting dose and method for managing dose adjustments. NB: the BG reference numbers quoted in the guide are for human meters but I'm sure that the members active in the Prozinc group will be able to help you with the Alphatrak side of things. (@Sue and Oliver (GA) - if you're online could you perhaps give Ann and Liz a bit of a heads-up on starting dose, please?)

I've experienced trigeminal nerve pain and I really feel for Lila. (((Lila))) Pain and inflammation can drive up BG levels. If you need to reinstate pain management meds at any stage keep a closer eye on BG levels as they may drop and a previously 'safe' dose may start taking her lower than previously.

The weakness could potentially be due to neuropathy. Neuropathy improves with better regulation and also methylcobalamin supplementation (e.g. Zobaline from the US - available online). I recommend discussing this with your vet, especially in light of Lila's issues with nerve pain. I have no idea of whether or not methyl B12 supplementation would be appropriate for her or contraindicated. With kidney issues in the mix you need to be cautious about B12 supplementation.

Go to Tanya's Site for more info on CKD. Also ask questions here on Feline Health when you need to; some members have experience of treating cats with both FD and CKD. There's also a very good support group on Yahoo. Here's the link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline-CRF-Support/info

Did your vets check Lila's potassium levels? That, too, may cause weakness but treatment for potassium imbalances needs to be done under strict veterinary supervision and requires regular blood testing (not safe otherwise - too high or too low a potassium level is dangerous).

On the incontinence at the vets, there's no way of knowing for certain but sometimes cats with high BG do urinate inappropriately. Fear is another potential cause of unusual toileting behaviour. Other members may be able to suggest additional things to consider. Again, occult neuropathy may feed into inappropriate elimination problems.

What age is Lila, BTW?


Mogs
.
 
I can't access the spreadsheet. Do you need to "Share with Anyone with the Link"? Or is it just me?

You are definitely using the ProZinc available in the U.K. and not the Bovine PZI, correct? (They are very different insulins). The U.K. ProZinc is very similar to the US insulin, so we should be able to help. Please come over to the PZI forum and poke around - looking at the spreadsheets of members, the stickies with a Protocol and Beginner's Guide.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/
 
Thanks Mog. Looks like lot of bouncing going on. Because of the drop on 2 units, I think I'd start lower than that - one unit/1.5. But definitely on a cycle you can monitor
 
[Emphasis mine]

At the end of the day what we are doing here is all about improving our little ones' health and quality of life; clinical signs MUST be taken into account alongside BG data. If your cat is feeling better on less Caninsulin that would be a signal to me that the higher doses aren't doing her any good or, more importantly, that Caninsulin itself is really hammering her system.

Here's an excerpt from Saoirse's journal during the time she was being treated with Caninsulin:

Lethargic, grumpy, withdrawn (often on floor behind curtain) during periods of Caninsulin peak action. Tries to hide in most inaccessible place she can find after pre-dose feeds and looks to be avoiding the injection which she knows comes next. Protests and tries to wriggle away when I am trying to give her the injection. Really doesn't like the insulin therapy. Mood/sociability markedly better when insulin dose wearing off: it's like having two different cats.

Any of that sound familiar? Other members have reported similar reactions in their cats to Vetsulin/Caninsulin treatment.

When Saoirse was switched to Lantus she still had her post-dose snoozes but they would only be for about an hour or so and thereafter she was a happy camper for the rest of the cycle. With the change to Lantus I got 'my cat' back.

If I were in your shoes I'd opt for the switch to Prozinc (the only choice available to you at the moment under UK cascade rules). I'd also look to the FDMB Prozinc guide for recommendations on starting dose and method for managing dose adjustments. NB: the BG reference numbers quoted in the guide are for human meters but I'm sure that the members active in the Prozinc group will be able to help you with the Alphatrak side of things. (@Sue and Oliver (GA) - if you're online could you perhaps give Ann and Liz a bit of a heads-up on starting dose, please?)

I've experienced trigeminal nerve pain and I really feel for Lila. (((Lila))) Pain and inflammation can drive up BG levels. If you need to reinstate pain management meds at any stage keep a closer eye on BG levels as they may drop and a previously 'safe' dose may start taking her lower than previously.

The weakness could potentially be due to neuropathy. Neuropathy improves with better regulation and also methylcobalamin supplementation (e.g. Zobaline from the US - available online). I recommend discussing this with your vet, especially in light of Lila's issues with nerve pain. I have no idea of whether or not methyl B12 supplementation would be appropriate for her or contraindicated. With kidney issues in the mix you need to be cautious about B12 supplementation.

Go to Tanya's Site for more info on CKD. Also ask questions here on Feline Health when you need to; some members have experience of treating cats with both FD and CKD. There's also a very good support group on Yahoo. Here's the link:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline-CRF-Support/info

Did your vets check Lila's potassium levels? That, too, may cause weakness but treatment for potassium imbalances needs to be done under strict veterinary supervision and requires regular blood testing (not safe otherwise - too high or too low a potassium level is dangerous).

On the incontinence at the vets, there's no way of knowing for certain but sometimes cats with high BG do urinate inappropriately. Fear is another potential cause of unusual toileting behaviour. Other members may be able to suggest additional things to consider. Again, occult neuropathy may feed into inappropriate elimination problems.

What age is Lila, BTW?


Mogs
.
Thank you for all replies. Will read fully later & reply fully. Lila is 16 y and vet initially said at diagnosis "she may have a pancreatic tumour of course" . He confirmed that her pancreas showed on bloods to be inflamed but his opinion was that it may be struggling to deal with with uncontrolled diabetes. And that if we didnt manage to see an improvement then we would need to think about diabetes being secondary to another disease process. We won't swap to pro zinc straight away -will read up etc first. Especially as she seems less worn down by lower dose at present. Grooming, more alert etc at present.
 
Last edited:
I can't access the spreadsheet. Do you need to "Share with Anyone with the Link"? Or is it just me?

You are definitely using the ProZinc available in the U.K. and not the Bovine PZI, correct? (They are very different insulins). The U.K. ProZinc is very similar to the US insulin, so we should be able to help. Please come over to the PZI forum and poke around - looking at the spreadsheets of members, the stickies with a Protocol and Beginner's Guide.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/
Thank you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top