Switching from Lantus to bovine PZI need help with dose and protocol

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Hi Anastasia
We just posted new a Prozinc protocol and beginners guide - they are yellow stickies on the home page of the Prozinc forum
why don't you have a look/read through and then post any questions you have
Most newbies start with 1 unit - but since you are not that, we'll see what @Sue and Oliver (GA) or @Rachel have to say

Prozinc is different from Lantus in that Prozinc is an in and out insulin - there are no depots with Prozinc - so shooting low is not usually done with Prozinc
 
Carol & Murphy said:
Hi Anastasia
We just posted new a Prozinc protocol and beginners guide - they are yellow stickies on the home page of the Prozinc forum
why don't you have a look/read through and then post any questions you have
Most newbies start with 1 unit - but since you are not that, we'll see what @Sue and Oliver (GA) or @Rachel have to say

Prozinc is different from Lantus in that Prozinc is an in and out insulin - there are no depots with Prozinc - so shooting low is not usually done with Prozinc
Click to expand...


I looked at articles you mentioned its advised start low and slow proticol but I was wonder if anyone used Dr Hodkings TR protocol where doses based on BG number?
 
I have been using Lantus for 4 months and Daisy stays in 300s with dose from 1 unit to 5 units please refer to spreadsheet so I was wonder if it's worth trying bovine PZI?
 
Anastasia said:
I looked at articles you mentioned its advised start low and slow proticol but I was wonder if anyone used Dr Hodkings TR protocol where doses based on BG number?
Click to expand...

That protocol is not popular on this forum. Particularly unwise is the chart that says "if they are in this range, shoot this". We feel strongly that Every Cat is different and doses should be tailored to the individual cat. If you look at people's spreadsheets here, you'll see that 2 units for one cat can have a much different effect than for another. The other part that we disagree with is the idea that a cat can't hypo if they are eating wet low carb. I have seen that happen too many times to agree.

You are getting decent numbers with Lantus. Have you considered the TR protocol for Lantus? No one knows if ProZinc will work better. It's another of those annoying sayings: The best insulin is the one that works for your cat. Kris and Teasel is a ProZinc cat who recently changed from Lantus. You might ask her.
 
Anastasia said:
I have been using Lantus for 4 months and Daisy stays in 300s with dose from 1 unit to 5 units please refer to spreadsheet so I was wonder if it's worth trying bovine PZI?
Click to expand...
Sue mentioned that my cat had been on Lantus. He was on it for the first 2 months after his diagnosis at the end of January 2016. He bounced badly and then got stuck in high numbers (probably insulin resistance) and wouldn't come down. I didn't like that I couldn't easily change doses by small fractions and I needed to be able to do that. My cat reacted to the sting of Lantus even at the low dose he was on. He had a DKA episode at the end of March 2016 and I decided to try ProZinc after that scary time. Teasel is still unregulated and very tricky to predict but we're finally getting somewhere I think. He's been on ProZinc for about 6 months. I really like the flexibility of ProZinc - being able to tweak doses and see quick results because there's no depot, being able to take a few liberties with time between doses and so on. I'd caution you not to judge the efficacy of ProZinc by looking at Teasel's spreadsheet. He's almost impossible to figure out!
 
Hi guys need help with dose on bovine PZI asap
BG numbers below:
Daisy, .............
BG still stay in 300s.

Switching from Lantus to bovine PZI insulin:

STARTING SCALE Sept 26th
+6 & +7 reduce by 0.25
+8 scale @ +8
151-170……….0.50u
171-185……….1.00u
186-200……….1.50u
201-220……….2.00u
221-250……….2.50u
251-290……….3.00u
291-350……….3.50u
351-390.........4.00u
391-450.........4.50u
451-490.........5.00u
491+..............5.50u

Using u100 Bovine PZI with u100 syringes

September 27, 2016

8:30 am ...........+12.............294..............3.00u (Bovine PZI) (Ah poor Daisy, pees a lot, set up 2 large litter boxes in room, boxes get very wet within 3 days
10 am................+2...............357
1:30 pm ..............+5.............290
3 pm ..................+6...............303............3.00u
4:30pm...............+7................340
6:30pm.........................,,,,,....309
9pm......,,,,........,+12.............305...........3.5u
3am..........,,,,,,,,,,+6.........,,,,,,292..........3.00u

September 28, 2016
8am................,,,,+5......,,,,,,,,,,311. (Checked urine with ketostix NO ketones) (1 can DM purina and 1 small can FF classic Chicken feast)
9am.....................+6......................,,,,,,,,,,3.5u
12:30pm...............+3.5h............300
3pm.......................+6.................268.........3u
7pm........................+4...........,,,,,,,275
9pm.............,,,,,,,,,,,,+6..........,,,,,,,339........3.5u

September 29
3am........................+6.............268.......3.5u
9am....................,....+6............272....,,,3.5u
3 pm.....................,,,,+6............342
5pm..........................,+8............301......3.5u
9pm............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,+4.......,,,,,,338


September 30

1am............................+8.............381...,,,....4.00u
9pm.............................+8.....,,,,,,,,321..........4.00u
12pm..................,,,,,,,,..+3............305
3pm...............................+6........,,,,308.......,,,,4.5u
6pm.........,,,,.................+3.............402
6:40pm.........................+3.5h..........466. ( vomit, diarreah)
8:30pm........,,,,,,,,,.........+5 h......,,,,,,400
11pm...............................+8..............389

October 1
9am...............................+18h...........,338....,3.5u
8 pm.....,,,,,................+11h.............366
Topic
 
I see that you're following what appears to be TR with the bovine PZI, dosing several times a day and varying the dose according to BG value. As Sue said above, that isn't a popular protocol on this forum so you might have difficulty finding experienced people to advise you. Would you consider modifying your methods to twice a day doses around 12 hours apart for a time? This is a different insulin from Lantus and it might give you better results with a different dosing regimen. The advisors here would then be able to help you find a good dosing range for Daisy.
 
Yes I would like to do 12 h dosing twice per day. I think every 6h dosing is causing Daisy a liver panik. She stays in 300s so I tried TR for few days but that didn't get her anywhere so yes 12 h would be the best
 
Interesting that her insulin only goes lower after shot on +10h like today preshot 338 x 3.5 unit.....+6h.....360.....+12h...313
​
 
Anastasia said:
Yes I would like to do 12 h dosing twice per day. I think every 6h dosing is causing Daisy a liver panik. She stays in 300s so I tried TR for few days but that didn't get her anywhere so yes 12 h would be the best
Click to expand...

Great! The people here will be able to help you so much more. I'm still learning how to do this with my cat so I'm not able to give you specific doses to try. When I look at Daisy's spreadsheet I see numbers that suggest that either: 1. many doses you've tried are too low (not likely) or 2. many of the doses have been too high and she's caught up in endless cycles of bouncing (liver panic as you called it) which is more likely. She might end up needing a "restart" at a lower dose and then have gradual increases over a decent length of time. This might get her calmed down and more responsive to the insulin.
 
Wow you and i are in the same boat. Switched from lantus (10 months on that) to bcp pzi a couple wks ago.

Initially i was dosing every 6-8 hrs, started at 1u. Quickly drove myself crazy trying to keep that up, and increased too aggressively causing bouncing. i think dosing sooner than 12 hrs, though it is deemed ok by dr h, wasnt working for us. I dropped the dose down considerably to start over again, and decided to stick with 12 hr dosing.

Every day is a learning process.
 
Anastasia said:
Interesting that her insulin only goes lower after shot on +10h like today preshot 338 x 3.5 unit.....+6h.....360.....+12h...313
​
Click to expand...
Really those numbers aren't all that different as they relate to her BG. I suggested this to someone else on another thread: convert these numbers to world units (divide by 18) and you get BGs of 18.8, 20.0, and 17.4 - all relatively high.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Sue mentioned that my cat had been on Lantus. He was on it for the first 2 months after his diagnosis at the end of January 2016. He bounced badly and then got stuck in high numbers (probably insulin resistance) and wouldn't come down. I didn't like that I couldn't easily change doses by small fractions and I needed to be able to do that. My cat reacted to the sting of Lantus even at the low dose he was on. He had a DKA episode at the end of March 2016 and I decided to try ProZinc after that scary time. Teasel is still unregulated and very tricky to predict but we're finally getting somewhere I think. He's been on ProZinc for about 6 months. I really like the flexibility of ProZinc - being able to tweak doses and see quick results because there's no depot, being able to take a few liberties with time between doses and so on. I'd caution you not to judge the efficacy of ProZinc by looking at Teasel's spreadsheet. He's almost impossible to figure out!
Click to expand...

Mr b stopped purring at some point during his lantus treatment, and his numbers never made any sense. I began having a niggling feeling that lantus just wasnt right for him. Its interesting you saw teasel reacted to lantus. Mr b didnt, but his injection sites always smelled like lantus, though i was injecting properly.

Like you i also like the flexibility of pzi. The depot and mysterious ways of lantus always confused me.

A couple days off lantus and mr b started purring again, and it wasnt because his numbers were better. Something about that lantus didnt agree with him. Wish i got off it sooner.
 
Her BG stays flat in 300s! It was like that on Lantus for 4 months so I switched to PZI and still 300s yes it's very high BG for so long. I don't know why a to do or what dose to give her
 
Misterbeesmom said:
Mr b stopped purring at some point during his lantus treatment, and his numbers never made any sense. I began having a niggling feeling that lantus just wasnt right for him. Its interesting you saw teasel reacted to lantus. Mr b didnt, but his injection sites always smelled like lantus, though i was injecting properly.

Like you i also like the flexibility of pzi. The depot and mysterious ways of lantus always confused me.

A couple days off lantus and mr b started purring again, and it wasnt because his numbers were better. Something about that lantus didnt agree with him. Wish i got off it sooner.
Click to expand...
No looking back! He's off it now and you're working on figuring out the ProZinc. You'll get there.
 
Anastasia said:
Her BG stays flat in 300s! It was like that on Lantus for 4 months so I switched to PZI and still 300s yes it's very high BG for so long. I don't know why a to do or what dose to give her
Click to expand...

It's too early to know what dose range (notice I said range) will work for Daisy. Think of this move to PZI as starting over in a more methodical way.
 
I would start over. Pick a dose - 2 units? And give a dose in the am and another twelve hours later. Try to get some mid cycle numbers, especially in the 5-7 hours after the shot. After a few cycles, you can evaluate: is he flat and high, does he drop for nadir, how much. Then we'll know whether to raise the dose and by how much. (If he would drop lower than 200 for pre shot, then lower the dose)

I'd also test for ketones while you are working on a dose.

The protocol and beginner's guide is in my signature on blue.
 
Hi Anastasia!
If you indeed have PZI bovine 100 u insulin which is British (has to be imported) and very long lasting for some cats, and I would say different to ProZinc, than dosing is definitely twice a day at 12 hours interval. TR protocol when you dose more then twice is for ProZinc which is not that long lasting and the aim of it is keeping your cat in good numbers for as many hours as possible and only if you have data to show that your cat processes this insulin quickly. Bovine PZI 100U CAN last in a cat for 36 hours but only testing will show you this. At least this is my understanding of a difference between PZI and ProZinc. Other members will correct me if this information is wrong. As far as I know I'm the only member who uses this insulin at the moment.
 
I was referring to British Hypurin insulin which is a very long lasting one. I have no experience with American compounded bovine 100U insulin. Does anyone here use it?
 
Marlena, in the US, we do have a compounded form of BCP-PZI that can be in U100 or U40 strength. Anastasia, it looks like you are in Philadelphia. Can you confirm this is the kind of insulin you are using?

Thanks for watching out, Marlena. When a U.K. member on PZI joins, we need your expertise!

We have members using it off and on. It behaves about the same as the US ProZinc.
 
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