? Does food really have an impact?

[Misterbeesmom]

I have donned protective gear, anticipating some strong responses to my question LOL

I'm asking because right after Mr B was diagnosed last November, we went right on a combination of canned hills m/d and canned purina d/m and put him on 2u Lantus. Prior to diagnosis, he was on low carb canned food like Wild Calling and Natures Variety Instinct, but was also eating supplemental dry (grain free, like Fromm, Nature's Instinct) We dropped the dry at diagnosis and he hasnt had any since.

We didn't have good control of his diabetes though it improved his numbers. It has been stated that hills m/d is very high in carbs. In retrospect, he was doing better back then than he is now.

Over the months, we dropped any food that was high carb, and still had to keep increasing insulin, and have yet to still get good control.

He is now on the lowest carb diet possible outside of feeding him green salads. Raw meat/organ/bone mixes. Yet still we have poor control. Glucose in urine, high BG #'s, low energy, lots of peeing.

Are we overestimating the impact of food? Are there cats here who do just fine on what is regarded as high carb food, even dry?

 

[Squalliesmom]

Food does have a very great impact on diabetes in cats, just like it does in humans. Some cats are more sensitive to carbs than others; my cat is super-sensitive to carbs, I generally can't go higher than about 3% without his BG shooting skyward. I don't know why your kitty's BG is so hard to control, but I would look for other causes, first. Have you discussed this with your vet? There are certain conditions that can cause this, as well.

I see in your signature that you feed Rad Cat Raw. You may already be aware of this but I saw it and thought I'd pass it on, in case you hadn't heard:

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm508394.htm

 

[Misterbeesmom]

Food does have a very great impact on diabetes in cats, just like it does in humans. Some cats are more sensitive to carbs than others; my cat is super-sensitive to carbs, I generally can't go higher than about 3% without his BG shooting skyward. I don't know why your kitty's BG is so hard to control, but I would look for other causes, first. Have you discussed this with your vet? There are certain conditions that can cause this, as well.

I see in your signature that you feed Rad Cat Raw. You may already be aware of this but I saw it and thought I'd pass it on, in case you hadn't heard:

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm508394.htm

thank you yes i heard about the recall and fortunately it didnt affect us. i appreciate the headsup.

oh yes indeedy i have spoken with my vet, and another vet, and another vet, and another vet, and another vet. i could've bought a used car for what i've spent only to have my cat still sick. still we keep on trying.

 

[Squalliesmom]

thank you yes i heard about the recall and fortunately it didnt affect us. i appreciate the headsup.

oh yes indeedy i have spoken with my vet, and another vet, and another vet, and another vet, and another vet. i could've bought a used car for what i've spent only to have my cat still sick. still we keep on trying.

I'm sorry it seems like none of them have been able to help you! Have any of them offered any insight at all?

 

[Misterbeesmom]

I'm sorry it seems like none of them have been able to help you! Have any of them offered any insight at all?

Nope. They're all mystified. Its epic.

My kingdom for a feline diabetes specialist!!!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Nope. They're all mystified. Its epic.

My kingdom for a feline diabetes specialist!!!

Have you looked at this? I'm not saying any of it necessarily applies to Mr. Biddles, but it might be worth discussing these with your vet, if you haven't already.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-other-high-dose-conditions-what-we-know.375/

Apparently some of the links in this may be broken but you can contact the author and she will help you with it.

 

[Misterbeesmom]

Have you looked at this? I'm not saying any of it necessarily applies to Mr. Biddles, but it might be worth discussing these with your vet, if you haven't already.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-other-high-dose-conditions-what-we-know.375/

Apparently some of the links in this may be broken but you can contact the author and she will help you with it.

thank you. the condition has come to the minds of 2 vets and 1 specialist we've seen, but they discounted it shortly after. plus, we had a bad run at 5u which was too much for him, or at least too much too fast.

thanks for your help. we're a tough case i guess.

 

[Shoeskitty-GA]

thank you. the condition has come to the minds of 2 vets and 1 specialist we've seen, but they discounted it shortly after. plus, we had a bad run at 5u which was too much for him, or at least too much too fast.

thanks for your help. we're a tough case i guess.

Did they run the specific tests regarding the two high dose conditions? I truly hope Mister B does not have one of these but the only way to know is with the testing. I know how hard you have been working on getting his bg numbers better so it's just a thought. I hope something changes for you soon!

 

[Misterbeesmom]

Did they run the specific tests regarding the two high dose conditions? I truly hope Mister B does not have one of these but the only way to know is with the testing. I know how hard you have been working on getting his bg numbers better so it's just a thought. I hope something changes for you soon!

no they decided based on history/symptoms and the fact that he actually did very poorly on 5u when we tried it (twice), that he most likely isnt a candidate for acromegaly, cushings, etc.

 

[Shoeskitty-GA]

no they decided based on history/symptoms and the fact that he actually did very poorly on 5u when we tried it (twice), that he most likely isnt a candidate for acromegaly, cushings, etc.

I know that the tests are expensive, but that is really the only accurate way to know. Have you considered a different insulin, like Levemir?

 

[Sherry & Zoe (GA)]

There is something called Glucose Toxicity - where numbers run high and you have to increase your dose until you break through. Robyn has dealt with this with her Penny.

There is also insulin autoantibodies (IAA). There is a blood test for this. I don't think it's very extensive to have done. A couple of people have had to deal with this.

Good luck!! I know how frustrating this is!

 

[Misterbeesmom]

I know that the tests are expensive, but that is really the only accurate way to know. Have you considered a different insulin, like Levemir?

i'm trying TR with a new meter, and if not successful, will most likely consider a different insulin.

just this afternoon was the first time in a long time we've seen blue, so crossing fingers and paws here.

 

[Misterbeesmom]

There is something called Glucose Toxicity - where numbers run high and you have to increase your dose until you break through. Robyn has dealt with this with her Penny.

There is also insulin autoantibodies (IAA). There is a blood test for this. I don't think it's very extensive to have done. A couple of people have had to deal with this.

Good luck!! I know how frustrating this is!

thank you will keep in mind! got a good number at +4 today so hoping hoping hoping HOPING we're on the right track.

 

[Shoeskitty-GA]

i'm trying TR with a new meter, and if not successful, will most likely consider a different insulin.

just this afternoon was the first time in a long time we've seen blue, so crossing fingers and paws here.

Congrats on the blue!! Hope he slides on down and doesn't bounce or bounce too high.

 

[Larry and Kitties]

I do not see any entries n your SS after 6/24

 

[Misterbeesmom]

I do not see any entries n your SS after 6/24

i failed to ask marje to create a new one for me, until just now. i switched to human glucometer and TR. will transfer readings to new ss.

 

[Misterbeesmom]

Congrats on the blue!! Hope he slides on down and doesn't bounce or bounce too high.

thanks!

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

One of my first clues something else was at play with my girl, who has IAA, was that reducing her carb load did absolutely nothing for her numbers no matter the increased doses of insulin. My girl is a kibble addict and at the time of diagnosis had been eating food probably in the neighborhood of 30+% carbs. I switched her to EVO which is about 8% and one of the few dry foods low enough in carbs for diabetics albeit still not ideal but I still didn't see any change whatsoever in my girl's numbers. That was when I knew something else was afoot. Now looking back, I can also see that when I increased her dose, I would see a hopeful reduction in her numbers for a day or so initially and then she'd bounce right back up to where she had been. I NEVER saw a blue number or anything close to it during that time. Mr. B has been getting the odd blue number mixed in with the rest of the rainbow so his pattern doesn't look quite the same as what I witnessed.

I'm not clear why you view the run at 5U as being bad. I don't see anything alarming on the spreadsheet. Was it perhaps physical observations you made while he was on that dose that made you think it was not the right thing to do? It doesn't appear you held the dose more than 4 cycles which may not have been long enough to really know how it was working.

Some cats just need more insulin than others and most vets will not entertain the possibility of any high dose conditions until the dose gets over 6-8u twice daily. Some cats with acromegaly do NOT need excessively high doses of insulin. The tests for both acromegaly (IGF-1) and IAA are inexpensive and most of the cost is the blood draw and shipping of the sample to the University of Michigan which is the only place these tests are done. If you are convinced something else may be in play with Mr. B, it might be worth pushing to get the testing done if for no other reason than peace of mind.

 

[Misterbeesmom]

One of my first clues something else was at play with my girl, who has IAA, was that reducing her carb load did absolutely nothing for her numbers no matter the increased doses of insulin. My girl is a kibble addict and at the time of diagnosis had been eating food probably in the neighborhood of 30+% carbs. I switched her to EVO which is about 8% and one of the few dry foods low enough in carbs for diabetics albeit still not ideal but I still didn't see any change whatsoever in my girl's numbers. That was when I knew something else was afoot. Now looking back, I can also see that when I increased her dose, I would see a hopeful reduction in her numbers for a day or so initially and then she'd bounce right back up to where she had been. I NEVER saw a blue number or anything close to it during that time. Mr. B has been getting the odd blue number mixed in with the rest of the rainbow so his pattern doesn't look quite the same as what I witnessed.

I'm not clear why you view the run at 5U as being bad. I don't see anything alarming on the spreadsheet. Was it perhaps physical observations you made while he was on that dose that made you think it was not the right thing to do? It doesn't appear you held the dose more than 4 cycles which may not have been long enough to really know how it was working.

Some cats just need more insulin than others and most vets will not entertain the possibility of any high dose conditions until the dose gets over 6-8u twice daily. Some cats with acromegaly do NOT need excessively high doses of insulin. The tests for both acromegaly (IGF-1) and IAA are inexpensive and most of the cost is the blood draw and shipping of the sample to the University of Michigan which is the only place these tests are done. If you are convinced something else may be in play with Mr. B, it might be worth pushing to get the testing done if for no other reason than peace of mind.

very helpful info thank you. if he doesnt improve on TR, i will push for those tests next time we visit vet.

the ss does not reflect his symptoms when he was on 5u. it was scary. he spent 3 days in hospital as a result. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/more-post-increase-drama.158293/#post-1684463

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Thanks for the link. Now I understand your concern much better.

Just so you know, my vet discouraged me from having the IAA test done because it is considered a rare possibility. I had to insist and my vet was very surprised when my "spidey sense" proved spot on and I felt vindicated for my insistence! You know Mr. B. better than anyone else and sometimes it pays to follow those gut feelings!

 

[Misterbeesmom]

Thanks for the link. Now I understand your concern much better.

Just so you know, my vet discouraged me from having the IAA test done because it is considered a rare possibility. I had to insist and my vet was very surprised when my "spidey sense" proved spot on and I felt vindicated for my insistence! You know Mr. B. better than anyone else and sometimes it pays to follow those gut feelings!

good thing you followed your instinct!!