? 06/24 - Small Kitty amps 518 - pmps 340 +4 277 +5 212 +6 178 +8 252 - Feeding options ?

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Photorecon

Photorecon

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Hey, good morning all

Happy Saint-Jean Batiste (Québec national holiday) !

Even if it's an holiday here, I do ''work''. It's a big word because my clients are
Québec city employees and not that many will call for tech support today.
Might be some police officers, 911 or fire department calling, but not that much.
Just the right time for reading and gaming (android phone games).

Now, about this post title ''Running for food''. ??? o_Oo_O ??? you might ask.
So here it is :

For quite a while, Small Kitty has been turning mad when serving food (and even between).
He will jump on the table to get is quicker, get on my way when cooking my own food.. Plus,
he will speed up to the bowl when ready, spinning to get there faster. It was so bad that
he would become aggressive and quick his brother out of the way to finish his portion.
All this within less then 2-4 minutes. Even with the feeder setup with small snack at +3
and +5 it didn't get better.

This week, surprisingly he seems to have relaxed a bit even if the numbers are as bad.
Auto feed has been in place for almost 3 weeks and it's just this week that he started to cool down.

There is also new food being served, best food I could find in the Low carb high prot category

PC Chicken & Liver : Carb : 1.3 Prot : 40.2 Fat : 58.5
PC Turkey & Giblets : Carb : 1.5 Prot : 44.3 Fat : 54.2

Complete spec can be found there :
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...0KlRA2ZVTk_tYNVRaoG_3Dfy64/edit#gid=964479244)

Food plan / Quantity is as follow :

AMPS : (65G-3oz) with water added for amps (80% of FF size can)

+3 : Baalance of the AMPS can (20g-0.70oz) + 12G-0.40oz (1 small frozen cube of that same food)
+5 : 24G-0.85oz (2 small frozen portion of that same low carb food).

Same thing PMPS.

That makes for about 110g-3.8oz of food per cycle.

This is less food then a week before with Fancy Feast Giblet and chicken low carb but he seems to relax a bit. He's acting the same way as his brother.

What could this mean ? More prot, more fat, less carb, higher dose ???


Small Kitty seems to be doing better also, no ketone for a while and is pretty much ''normal weight'' (4.7 KG-10.3 lbs), lost .3 since new food introduction.

Might be a good sign, don't know.

Is this food quantity on target or should reduced / increased ?

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...8-pmps-324-2-367-3-5-304.159996/#post-1708056
 
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Feed freezer.

This is what I use to freeze the food so it's not mud 3h after I leave :

Each portion is 12.5 G, by the time the feeder rolls it's perfect for eating.

Give 1 added to the rest of the morning can at +3 and 2 at +5

Food freezer.jpg
 
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When diagnosed, vet told me that diet is the base of the ''therapy'', that if I do it wrong the rest will.
He came to me with a pack of Hills Diabetes management food at 2$ per can. The second vet I visited
was selling Purina MD, same pattern. I now know this is not true that only this kind of food is adequate,
other commercial food are doing a just as good if not better.

Looking at Small Kitty SS, is actual timing the best with current results ?
 
It's totally possible the higher protein/fat combo is "satisfying" him more so he's not as hungry....it's always a matter of finding what works in each of our kitties!
 
Hey Sebastien ~ remind me in ounces how much food a day you are giving SK. And you said SK is at a good weight now of 9lbs?
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Sebastien ~ remind me in ounces how much food a day you are giving SK. And you said SK is at a good weight now of 9lbs?
Click to expand...

Nice hearing from you Bobbie,

Small Kitty weights 10.36 lbs and has plenty of energy to spare. He's eating about 4 oz of food per cycle, (pmps portion excluded). With pmps portion it makes for 7oz.
 
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Back from the office doing nothing, almost more exhausted then when it's full speed busy :)

Still, Small Kitty keeps on having his nice pmps. Would be great if the same thing could
happen at amps..

Maybe a snack time switch during the night, or cut them off ?

Now time for Medium Father to go out and enjoy nature. Been a long week.

Wish all of you will have a nice one ! ;)
 
Hey Sebastien I am thinking now since SK has gained back his weight, the food volume could be cut back. For his size of 10.38 he should be eating 210 calories a day. The FF LC are about 92 a can and he is eating about 2 3/4 cans or 244 calories a day. Maybe instead of 1/4 can for his 2 snacks in each cycle , give 1/8 of a can for each cycle. Maybe that would help his numbers.

Let's see what others think.
 
I know no one agrees with my earlier suggestion from last weekend, but I thought I would put it out here again...when you do the curve this weekend, rather than feeding at a set time, see what the glucose levels are and feed according to what the BG drops are. Since this is the only time you can do any extended testing my opinion is that it would be a good time to see how much food is needed to keep SK surfing, without bringing up the BG levels. Just my opinion.
 
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Tuxedo Mom said:
I know no one agrees with my earlier suggestion from last weekend, but I thought I would put it out here again...when you do the curve this weekend, rather than feeding at a set time, see what the glucose levels are and feed according to what the BG drops are. Since this is the only time you can do any extended testing my opinion is that it would be a good time to see how much food is needed to keep SK surfing, without bringing up the BG levels. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Good evening Mary Ann,

What do you mean by ''feed according to BG drops'' ? GL get to it's lowest point at +4-5, do
you mean not feeding until then ? What I might want to do it serve full portion amps and pmps
without cutting off part of them for the usual +3 +5 set in the feeder. Is it what you mean ?
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Sebastien I am thinking now since SK has gained back his weight, the food volume could be cut back. For his size of 10.38 he should be eating 210 calories a day. The FF LC are about 92 a can and he is eating about 2 3/4 cans or 244 calories a day. Maybe instead of 1/4 can for his 2 snacks in each cycle , give 1/8 of a can for each cycle. Maybe that would help his numbers.

Let's see what others think.
Click to expand...

The food quantity put in the feeder for +3 and +5 is less than 1/2 can. It's more like 1/5 and he's asking
for food still. Hard to know. Guess cutting off on food has an unpredictable results, no rules ?
 
Photorecon said:
Good evening Mary Ann,

What do you mean by ''feed according to BG drops'' ? GL get to it's lowest point at +4-5, do
you mean not feeding until then ? What I might want to do it serve full portion amps and pmps
without cutting off part of them for the usual +3 +5 set in the feeder. Is it what you mean ?
Click to expand...


My thought is that if you can do a full curve and testing would be to test before the shot..feed a normal meal..test at +2 or +3 and give a snack rather than a meal if the numbers are not coming down fast...then retest again at +4 or +5 and see whether SK needs any food to help him surf or bring him up. Since you can only do curves on the weekend MY opinion would be to see how SK responds to the insulin and feed according to what his numbers are doing. MY thought is that would give a better indication of how much food and when it should be given with the feeder during the week when you are at work.

With MY kitties I feed them small snacks according to what the preshot is and where their last nadir was. As I said this is only my thought.

ETA If you see a pattern where SK is dropping a lot in the first 2 or 3 hours after shot, then you can rethink how much food to feed at established intervals.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
My thought is that if you can do a full curve and testing would be to test before the shot..feed a normal meal..test at +2 or +3 and give a snack rather than a meal if the numbers are not coming down fast...then retest again at +4 or +5 and see whether SK needs any food to help him surf or bring him up. Since you can only do curves on the weekend MY opinion would be to see how SK responds to the insulin and feed according to what his numbers are doing. MY thought is that would give a better indication of how much food and when it should be given with the feeder during the week when you are at work.

With MY kitties I feed them small snacks according to what the preshot is and where their last nadir was. As I said this is only my thought.

ETA If you see a pattern where SK is dropping a lot in the first 2 or 3 hours after shot, then you can rethink how much food to feed at established intervals.
Click to expand...

I think he needs food NOW at +5. He's on his lowest number for a while (212).
Auto-feeder was on time, +5 to give him less than 1 Ounce of low carb food (.88).
That's less then 1/5th of a can, 2-3 bites. That seems to be like you said, feed when getting low.

I'll stay awake to see how high or low he goes with that. Lantus is at the end of it's action
time, should die in the hour in Small Kitty.

The food should keep him afloat, but it seems there is something happening after
+6 during the night that makes the numbers rise very high. I'm not sure it's happening
due to after feed time snack content of the feeder.
 
Hi there :cool:

I was in the neighborhood and saw your "?"

Regarding calories -
With the BG unregulated and high, the food can't be fully metabolized and delivered to the cells of the body, which makes SK hungry.
Being that SK has had a recent DKA and is running at high numbers I would not cut back on calories. A kitty recovering from DKA needs at least 1.5x the normal calories required to maintain desired weight. I would not worry about a little weight gain at this stage. My BK went from 7.5lbs (following his 2nd DKA) to 13.5lbs 6 months later and eventually settled into an ideal weight of slightly over 11 lbs.

How did you arrive at +3 and 5 for mini-meals?
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
Hi there :cool:

I was in the neighborhood and saw your "?"

Regarding calories -
With the BG unregulated and high, the food can't be fully metabolized and delivered to the cells of the body, which makes SK hungry.
Being that SK has had a recent DKA and is running at high numbers I would not cut back on calories. A kitty recovering from DKA needs at least 1.5x the normal calories required to maintain desired weight. I would not worry about a little weight gain at this stage. My BK went from 7.5lbs (following his 2nd DKA) to 13.5lbs 6 months later and eventually settled into an ideal weight of slightly over 11 lbs.

How did you arrive at +3 and 5 for mini-meals?
Click to expand...

Why +3 and +5 ? This is THE question. +3 guess would be to cut a bit of ''big'' meal by a 1/5th and push it there
and adding one more bite. As for the +5 I'm questioning it. Idea was to bring GL up as it's when
Small Kitty is flirting around nadir... but on the other hand, it might be killing, later on
during the cycle, what's left of Lantus action.

This was making sense until tonight, test at +6 brought 178, this is kind a low for my high GL
Small Kitty.

Check this out, numbers will be above red line tomorrow...:banghead:

BTW, thanks for passing by and helping ! I see what you mean by weight fluctuation, mine also of kitty is going up and down. Sounds he's eating himself from the inside...
 
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Someone this week mentioned that when her cat was at his/her nadir he would
walk to his food bowl, or something like that. Small Kitty just passed nadir
and was screaming for food (witch he got because it was feeder snack time).
He's not more relax, don't know if he's going to get down even lower tonight.

Will set an alarm clock for +8-9 to test, will see how tired I am.
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
How about trying +4 and +8 mini-meals, on the PM cycle only, for the next 2 PM cycles. Just to see if/how it changes the picture?
Click to expand...

Might be something to investigate, in the meantime he's passed nadir at +8 (252) he's now climbing. Let's see what tomorrow has to say (in 4h). Small Kitty is really a night bird, he hasn't sleep for a min as he's sleeping all day long (lucky him) :)
 
Sandy and Black Kitty said:
Hi there :cool:

I was in the neighborhood and saw your "?"

Regarding calories -
With the BG unregulated and high, the food can't be fully metabolized and delivered to the cells of the body, which makes SK hungry.
Being that SK has had a recent DKA and is running at high numbers I would not cut back on calories. A kitty recovering from DKA needs at least 1.5x the normal calories required to maintain desired weight. I would not worry about a little weight gain at this stage. My BK went from 7.5lbs (following his 2nd DKA) to 13.5lbs 6 months later and eventually settled into an ideal weight of slightly over 11 lbs.

How did you arrive at +3 and 5 for mini-meals?
Click to expand...
Sandy, thanks for weighing in on the calorie thing and DKA since you have had experience with that and I have not. My thoughts were that SK was getting too many calories now that he had gained back his weight. I did not realize that kitties recovering from DKA needed 1.5 more calories this long after a DKA episode. I'm glad you responded.
 
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