? 6/18 Tačka AMPS 160 +1 184 +3 189 +5 193 +7.5 198 PMPS 211 +288

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Shooting a lower number can mean a flatter cycle, rather than a bigger drop, but every cat is different, and you know Tačka better than anyone else.
 
I can. I have. I will retest in 5 min to see if she is going up or down. Than i will give her food to see if she wanna eat. I am afraid she wont eat again.
 
Not eating is a big challenge, I forgot that she was being picky about food. Does she like the HC more than her normal food? That would make it easier to steer her if you need to.
 
OMG 101. I cant give her insuline now. She is going down quickly. Should I give her food or what? I think today it will be 18 hours cycle.
 
101 is still a very good number, and healthy. If you're concerned about the speed of the drop you can give her MC to slow it down, but you don't need her to come up yet, so her normal food would be fine too.
 
Just keep reminding yourself that with Tight Reg, the goal is to get the cat completely into normal numbers, 50-100/120.

It sounds like you're going to be home today. If it weren't 11pm at my house, I'd be suggesting you go ahead and shoot. But our tradition is that the person encouraging you to shoot low for the first time also stay with you, and I can't stay with you. Gradually shooting lower numbers is a great way to gain control of a cat's blood sugar and lower the entire range.

You don't have to wait til +18 to shoot. If you feel like you can't shoot now, you can wait and as soon as she rises, shoot then.

Have you read the sticky about how to deal with lower than usual preshots? Here's a post that I wrote a while ago about shooting low - it includes links to read and some spreadsheets that show what can happen when you shoot low.

You can choose to shoot a token dose, you can stall and shoot late, or you can skip - those are also options.
 
I am confused. She is going up but that can be food spike. I didnt shoot her because her numbers were going down instead up and because she didnt want to eat. She ate than MC and some coocked chicken. Should I shot her now?
 
Ok, then yes, you could be seeing a food spike. Perhaps the thing to do would be to have a +18 cycle today, and in the meantime read up a bit on shooting lower numbers so that you have a plan for next time. You could shoot 2 hours after you fed her, so that the food spike has worn off. That would put you 2 hours off schedule though, which can be hard to manage to get back on your preferred shooting schedule. It's up to you.

Just saw your last post - yes, you can shoot at +14, 2 hours later than normal. Then you have to get back on schedule. Most people move back about 1/2 hour per day to get on schedule.

Take a look at this part of the sticky on dealing with lower numbers at preshot:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS:

The following guidelines apply to those following the Tight Regulation Protocol only.

You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.
Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.
  • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
  • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
    • --- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?
** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
I think what you're seeing is that when her blood sugar gets closer to normal range, she isn't as hungry. That's normal. I know you've mentioned before that she hasn't been hungry when it's time to shoot.

Do you normally feed her late in the cycle? I'm wondering if that's another reason why she isn't as hungry at preshot. I didn't feed punkin after about +3 unless we were dealing with low numbers.
 
Do you normally feed her late in the cycle?
No acctually. I feed her at +5 max +6 (PM). I dont know why she refuse food in the morning. But she dont wanna eat anything. And I noticed that when she is in lower normal numbers she drink more. Weird.

I can give her at 8.30. That would be 1,5 hours late. What do you think about that? I can measure again and if she is on 150 or higher i shot her and if she is not i go on with first plan: 2*18.

She ate small amount of MC earlier (say 20g) and than coocked chicken (about 30g)
 
The more I think about it, I think there's no reason why you couldn't shoot now, because she was high enough to shoot in every test you had earlier this morning.

But I can't stay with you to help you if you run into low numbers. So it's up to you.
 
I have to go but just wanted to wish you good luck today!! It's scary making these decisions for the first time - I wish I could stay with you. If you do see low numbers today - which means under 50 on a human meter - these are the guidelines that you would use.


DON'T PANIC! or HOW TO HANDLE LOW NUMBERS
The following guidelines apply to those following the Tight Regulation Protocol only.

First, try to not panic. Post to the Lantus & Levemir Insulin Support Group or on the Health Board. Make sure your subject line indicates you are concerned about a possible hypo and/or add the 911 prefix to the first post in your thread. People who are experienced in dealing with low numbers will be there to help. After posting, remember to refresh your browser periodically to see if people have replied.

It’s important to recognize that just because your cat may be experiencing low BG numbers doesn’t mean that your kitty is critically hypoglycemic. Many cats will have low numbers and never have symptoms. It’s important, though, to bring those numbers up into a safe range.

ALWAYS make sure you have a stock of test strips, high carb (HC) canned food that contains gravy and is over 15% carb such as Fancy Feast grilled, marinated, or Gravy Lovers varieties (see Dr. Lisa's Cat Food Nutritional Composition List for a full list of options), and/or a simple sugar solution such as Karo/corn syrup, honey, maple syrup, etc.

If your cat is experiencing symptoms, especially if those symptoms are severe, you need to rub Karo syrup, honey, or maple syrup on the gums or, if symptoms are very severe, administer rectally and get your cat to the nearest 24-hour emergency facility. Take the bottle of syrup with you to administer on the way if necessary. (Note that it is rare that we see episodes of symptomatic hypoglycemia with Lantus and even rarer to see severe symptoms. But, you need to know what to do should they occur.)

The symptoms to be concerned about include but are not limited to:
  • staggering, uncoordinated movements, 'drunken' walk, wobbling, balance problems
  • ataxia - usually lack of muscular coordination, but maybe changes in head and neck movements
  • disorientation (yowling, walking in circles, etc.)
  • twitching
  • stupor
  • convulsions or seizures
  • coma

If your cat is testing in low numbers and you are not getting a quick response to your post, there are several things you need to do. (Low numbers are under 50mg/dL or 2.8 mmol/L.)
  • Depending on how carbohydrate sensitive your cat is, feed approximately a teaspoon or less of gravy from high carb food or high carb food only. (If you have a cat with GI issues, using a couple of drops of syrup plus low carb food is an alternative.)
  • Test again in 15 – 20 min. Depending on the numbers, give more HC food.
  • Repeat the above steps every 15 – 20 min. until your cat tests in the 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) or above range for 2 consecutive tests. Continue to feed in small amounts to keep numbers in a safe range.
  • Test in 30 - 40 min. and repeat the test and feed process until there are 2 consecutive tests where numbers are stable or rising.
  • Test in an hour and follow the same steps.
DO NOT become complacent. If number have risen after one or two tests, it’s important to continue testing. Numbers may bobble up and down as the HC food and/or Karo wear off. DO NOT get one test where your cat has risen from low numbers into the 50s and go to sleep or leave the house. You are putting your cat in a risky situation. When in doubt, leave HC food out.

In the case of an accidental overdose or should there be symptoms of hypoglycemia, even if you have caught this in the early stages, you may need to monitor for literally 16 or more hours. Lantus and Levemir are long acting types of insulin. This means if your cat is over dose, you will need to stay alert for hours in order to closely monitor and to keep your cat safe.

Please post your numbers. Those people who are helping you will not abandon you. In fact, they are staying up with you. The experienced people will even work in shifts to make sure your cat is safe and you have the support you need. Remember to refresh your browser to see new posts and keep posting so we know all is well.

~ written by Sienne and Gabby
 
I know what to do if she is low and someone probably will be here. I will test her again now and than i will shot her. Thank you Julie
 
Hi Sara.

I'm here, so if there's an issue in the next two hours, I'll keep checking in. Gill will probably be along by the time I want to go to bed, so you won't be alone. I'm glad you gave her the shot. I know it's scary, but this is a good thing!! I know you want her to get better, and this is the way it happens!
:)
 
Hi Tricia

You know, I dont have problems with shot low numbers. I was scared because she went down instead up just before shot. And non-eating scares me. I bought one of her favourite food in meantime and i hope she will eat it. I have new treats i must check for carbs.
I will test her now. +1 to see where she is going.
 
New treats are Sanabelle snack and have 9% carbs. What do you think about that? She dont like freeze-dried snackies. Now i have nature menu treats 11,6% carbs and because of that i give them to her only when she is low (half of threat at a time)
 
9% isn't too bad, but I wouldn't give her a lot - one or two at a time. Harvey doesn't like freezed dried treats,either. The only treats he likes are the really high carb ones. :rolleyes: Cinco, however, LOVED the freeze dried stuff. If he wasn't eating enough I would crush a little on his food and he would suck it all up! He also loved bonito flakes, which Harvey doesn't like.
 
Or is a duck some kind of vegatable with same name as feathered animal.
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Are you sure all they contain is duck? Is that what it says under "ingredients" on the back of the package?
 
from analytical constituents: protein 42% moisture 23% fat 3% ash 2,5% fiber 0,5%
Those are probably what they call the "guaranteed analysis" here in the States. It's an approximate number. You can't really get a good carb % without the"as fed" numbers, and you have to generally call the company to get that.
I thought i was the only one with scribbled cans.
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people on the Board that do it! ;)

 
Those are probably what they call the "guaranteed analysis" here in the States. It's an approximate number. You can't really get a good carb % without the"as fed" numbers, and you have to generally call the company to get that.
But still 37.7% ? This is more than the most High Carb food in gravy have. High carb dried duck :rolleyes: This is made in Finland. Maybe Tiina knows that treats and real %.
 
Hi Sara~ looks like you shot a little late. It's nice and scary to see them in lower numbers at shot time and your concern of her not wanting to eat is a good concern. Usually with the Lantus, they have a good 4 hours before onset so keeping that in mind maybe next time you will feel a little more confident to shoot those nice low blues and she will have a few hours to get some food into her.
 
Sorry I missed the 'excitement' this morning, we all get nervous when we start to see those lower PS numbers, soon you will crave them:)

Why she is allways on the lowest point in the end of cycle?

I think the low numbers you are seeing at the end of the cycle are typically occurring at the end of a bounce clearing cycle.

Looks like she is having a nice flat blue cycle now:cool:
 
As I see Bubba is that kind of cat. He is alway on the lowest point in the end of the cycle. As I said, today scared me that she was going down. If she would stay on 120 20minutes after PMPS I would shoot her as usual. And than eating....I dont know what to do in that case next time? Can I give her MC and shot her? Because MC she would eat, but not LC (I opened 2 cans this morning-and nothing).
 
Take a look at post #6 in this thread - it's specifically about shooting a dropping number. Lower preshots are an absolute gift, so if you get one in the future on a cycle when you can monitor afterwards, really try to go for it without stalling. You've got ample data to say that this is a good dose for Tacka for right now. That's important to know before you "shoot low."

The goal with Tight Reg is to work up to shooting everything over 50, on time, without reducing the dose, in order to get the cat under tight regulation. If she's sick, that's different. But if she just doesn't want to eat much at that moment, but you don't have any reason to believe she wouldn't eat in the next couple of hours, I think you could go ahead. Once a kitty is tightly regulated, their blood sugar will become pretty flat, and might only move 10 points in an entire day. Right now Tacka hasn't had a green number in more than 2 weeks. Try not to panic about numbers over 50 and carb her up to prevent her from getting into green numbers. They are a healthy range for her.

The best thing for her body would be to get into that 50-100 range.

It might help you to take a look at some of the thread titles on the Lantus/Lev group's page - look at people's preshot values and notice how many are shooting green numbers. That's the goal!

By the way, we fed cooked chicken breast to punkin for treats. Simmered a couple on the stove, cut them up into 1/2" cubes, froze most of it and kept a couple of tablespoons in the refrigerator. That's enough to last for a couple of days. It's a 20 minute investment every couple of weeks with basically no carbs. He loved them.
 
The goal with Tight Reg is to work up to shooting everything over 50, on time, without reducing the dose, in order to get the cat under tight regulation. If she's sick, that's different. But if she just doesn't want to eat much at that moment, but you don't have any reason to believe she wouldn't eat in the next couple of hours, I think you could go ahead. Once a kitty is tightly regulated, their blood sugar will become pretty flat, and might only move 10 points in an entire day. Right now Tacka hasn't had a green number in more than 2 weeks. Try not to panic about numbers over 50 and carb her up to prevent her from getting into green numbers. They are a healthy range for her.
I know all of that but i am such a pussy :(
I will do that next time I promise. Even if I eat myself first.

By the way, we fed cooked chicken breast to punkin for treats. Simmered a couple on the stove, cut them up into 1/2" cubes, froze most of it and kept a couple of tablespoons in the refrigerator. That's enough to last for a couple of days. It's a 20 minute investment every couple of weeks with basically no carbs. He loved them.
Tačka was mostly on raw food before I found that forum and i didnt measure BG so often. Than i started to give her more and more wet food. A the beginning because of low numbers, than because she dont like raw food any more. After a while she had only one raw meal (breakfast) Than she didnt want that too. Now I figured out that when she dont wanna eat anything in the morning, she sometimes (not always) would eat cooked chichen. So this is occasionally her whole meal :D
 
It's ok to work up to shooting lower numbers. I've closed her ss now, but whatever the lowest you've shot before is, try shooting everything in the range 30 below that. Then do that again until you're shooting green numbers regularly. I was afraid too, although for different reasons because punkin had acromegaly.

I'm not trying to criticize you - everyone has to work at their own pace. Just want to give you the info so you can see examples of this at work because then it's not quite as scary. I'm just over here on the west coast of the US, encouraging & cheering you on half way around the world. :D
 
I'm not trying to criticize you - everyone has to work at their own pace.
I do not feel threatened by you or something like that :D I just cant get out of my skin. But I try to.
I'm just over here on the west coast of the US, encouraging & cheering you on half way around the world. :D
I really appreciate that. Cowards like me needs a little more encouragement than others :)
 
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