New to feline diabetes; have a question

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sunnydoo48

sunnydoo48

Member Since 2016
Hi, I'm just learning how to give my baby her shots. The first time I gave it to her all was fine, but the last two times she's jumping a little during/right after the injection. I'm pretty sure it's not too cold; I've been warming it a little in my hand before giving it to her. What could I be doing wrong? I don't want her to start dreading this; that would be very bad. Thank you for any advice you can give me!
 
Hello, and welcome. :bighug:

sunnydoo48 said:
The first time I gave it to her all was fine, but the last two times she's jumping a little during/right after the injection. I'm pretty sure it's not too cold; I've been warming it a little in my hand before giving it to her. What could I be doing wrong?
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Hmmm, okey dokey... If you're taking the chill off the insulin it's unlikely to be that...

Which insulin are you using? (Lantus/glargine can cause a stinging sensation.)
Are you only using the syringe once? (Shots with re-used syringes can be more painful).
Are you sure you're depositing the insulin just under the skin? If you hit flesh below then that could nip a bit.

Eliz
 
Thank you for your welcome! And thank you for your responses.

I'm using Novolin N insulin and I've been injecting her in her scruff. I figured I would do that for a couple of weeks until I get used to it and then move to other injection sites. Yes, I'm only using syringes once! I would never re-use a syringe (and in fact threw 2 away the first time because I wasn't sure I had the steps correct). I don't think I'm hitting flesh; I'm tenting her scruff up very high. I do insert the needle quickly and I even tried to be slow and smooth when I pushed the plunger. I'm not sure what size needle, but it's really tiny. She's only getting 3 cc's. I talked to my vet a little while ago and he said I might be doing it too hard (I'm not the most graceful person). So I'm going to try to be more gentle tonight and see what happens.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Thank you so much! This site is awesome!
 
perhaps you are tenting too much? i'm not sure if thats possible, but if the skin is really extremely taut, that might make entry more sensitive? i dunno. someone else here will know, i'm sure!

i was a bit hamhanded when i first started giving insulin, and i think it took me a long time before i got more refined. knock on wood no jinxies. i dont rush out after injecting but make it a smooth gentle fluid motion of injection and exit, after the quick entry. i dont tent hard. i part his fur so i can see where i'm injecting, and i tug up just a little. seems to be working fine for us, as mr b doesnt respond at all when i give insulin.

are you injecting at an angle? not like 'straight down', right?

i dont know novolin. we're on lantus. maybe novolin can irritate some cats? hmmm.

i'm fairly new to this game too - is 3 cc's the same as 3u's? i'm guessing not, as that would be a high starting dose.
 
I don't think I'm tenting too much, but thank you for the suggestion. I'm putting the needle in horizontally, but maybe not at the 45 degree angle that's suggested. And it is 3 units; sorry, I don't have the language down yet :)

Thanks again for everyone's help! My avatar is a picture of Kira snoozing (her favorite thing) but I couldn't get the whole picture in. Her back leg is kicked out and she has no tail. Not sure if she was born that way or something happened to her. When she showed up on our doorstep 7 years ago she was like that.

Thanks again!
 
sunnydoo48 said:
I don't think I'm tenting too much, but thank you for the suggestion. I'm putting the needle in horizontally, but maybe not at the 45 degree angle that's suggested. And it is 3 units; sorry, I don't have the language down yet :)

Thanks again for everyone's help! My avatar is a picture of Kira snoozing (her favorite thing) but I couldn't get the whole picture in. Her back leg is kicked out and she has no tail. Not sure if she was born that way or something happened to her. When she showed up on our doorstep 7 years ago she was like that.

Thanks again!
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i'm just checking - 3 units is kinda high if its a starting dose. is kira really big? i'm wondering what her #'s are but i dont think you're hometesting.
mr b is about 15 pounds and we started at 2 units, for example.
kira's a cutie. mr b showed up at my door too! that was 12 years ago.
 
Thank you; I think she's a cutie too. Mr B is a beautiful boy!

Kira was about 15 lbs. but she's down to around 14 now. The 3 units are 3 of the tiny marks on the, before you get to the bigger "5" mark. It's really just a little bit. No, I'm not home testing; my vet says it's not necessary. I trust him completely.
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB.

Just a thought...there are different needle lengths...6mm 8mm and 1/2". When I started I was using the 1/2" since that was what the first vet had sold me. My kitty would jump even when I was being careful. I started using the 8mm and it went much better. I actually now use the 6mm for one kitty and the 8mm for the other.
 
sunnydoo48 said:
Thank you; I think she's a cutie too. Mr B is a beautiful boy!

Kira was about 15 lbs. but she's down to around 14 now. The 3 units are 3 of the tiny marks on the, before you get to the bigger "5" mark. It's really just a little bit. No, I'm not home testing; my vet says it's not necessary. I trust him completely.
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my mr biddles would like to take your ms. kira out on a date. a nice quiet cafe where they serve mouse pate ;):coffee::cat::p

yes that is 3 units. we started at 2 units months ago and just got bumped up to the big 5.

hate to be a downer, but i hope your vet is as good as is your trust in him. lots of stories on this board about vets who have very little knowledge of diabetes. that was my experience as well. mr b got quite sick as a result and is still in a poorer condition than he ever should've been under a vet's care. most, if not all, folks on here will rankle at hearing of a vet poopooing home testing. so far it has been critical in determining the course of treatment for mr b, and my vet encourages it.
 
sunnydoo48 said:
No, I'm not home testing; my vet says it's not necessary. I trust him completely.
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Going to throw my 2 cents worth in here. If your vet had a diabetic child would they give insulin without checking the glucose levels and only check the levels every week or so. NO WAY. A human diabetic is told to check their insulin before every shot and periodically during the day. Insulin is a powerful hormone and does not always act/react the same even with the same dose. There have been many cases here of people who caught their kitty going into a hypo episode with no pre-warning, simply because they were home testing.

Rant over!!
 
I think most vets use the word "not necessary" because they think in the mindset of the majority of owners who are put off by even wanting to proceed with insulin. The first thing my vet asked was "do you think insulin is something you'd be willing to do twice a day?" in the tone of most of her clients must tell her no. I said of course, and she almost seemed shocked. Not so much at the financial aspect, but that a lot of her clients must not be willing to give the shots themselves.
 
Erica & Carter said:
I think most vets use the word "not necessary" because they think in the mindset of the majority of owners who are put off by even wanting to proceed with insulin. The first thing my vet asked was "do you think insulin is something you'd be willing to do twice a day?" in the tone of most of her clients must tell her no. I said of course, and she almost seemed shocked. Not so much at the financial aspect, but that a lot of her clients must not be willing to give the shots themselves.
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I agree, most vets don't recommend testing because they don't think their clients will do it. That the clients will find it to be too much work. I have found testing to be no more additional work than giving insulin.
 
Misterbeesmom said:
...hate to be a downer, but i hope your vet is as good as is your trust in him. lots of stories on this board about vets who have very little knowledge of diabetes
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That is SO true, unfortunately. I wish it was different. But a lot of us have seen too many kitties arrive here on insulin doses that are just too high.
And the vet who diagnosed my cat's diabetes suggested I have him PTS. (Glad I didn't follow that advice or we'd not have had these past 9 years...)
And just last night (on the Facebook group), a cat was given 15 units instead of 1.5 because, apparently, that was how the vet showed the caregiver to draw the dose up into the syringe!

Good vets are worth their weight in gold. And I love my vet. But our experience here is that many vets really don't know that much about diabetes. That's not so surprising: They're busy people who deal with multiple ailments in multiple species. They can't keep up to date on everything...
.
 
Wow, that's a lot of feedback on testing. I did some research and asked him about it; maybe I will again. He knows I would do anything for her (and my other babies, too). I would be willing to check her; I'm not so sure she would be willing to let me!! :woot: I sure don't want her to be in less than great shape because I'm not testing.

So - what is a hypo episode? Is that ketoacidosis? My vet did tell me to get Karo syrup but that it was very rare for that to happen.

Kira is blushing at the offer of a date :joyful: but respectfully declines She is not the most social kitty (she is the queen "B"!!)...at least to other kitties. She's a lovey to mom & dad. She does agree with mom that Mr. Biddles is beautiful. I would go on a date with Mr. Biddles, though :rolleyes:

Thank you all for your feedback and advise. I am so lucky to have found this site!

I love the avatars; all the kitties look like they have great personalities! I guess they learned from their parents. :cat:
 
Misterbeesmom said:
15 units OMG!!! jeez i hope kitty was ok!
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Yes, he's OK...thankfully!
The caregiver had been told to increase the dosage from 1 unit to 1.5, and was given different syringes as well. But it seems that the vet instructed the caregiver to draw insulin to the 15 unit mark instead of 1.5... After giving the shot the caregiver felt uneasy about the amount of liquid involved as it seemed a very different amount to the one unit shot... Long story short, after posting on the FB group page she realised she'd given 15 units, and she took the kitty to a hospital where he was put on a glucose drip. The kitty is still there and is now doing well. But it could have been a very different story...
.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Yes, he's OK...thankfully!
The caregiver had been told to increase the dosage from 1 unit to 1.5, and was given different syringes as well. But it seems that the vet instructed the caregiver to draw insulin to the 15 unit mark instead of 1.5... After giving the shot the caregiver felt uneasy about the amount of liquid involved as it seemed a very different amount to the one unit shot... Long story short, after posting on the FB group page she realised she'd given 15 units, and she took the kitty to a hospital where he was put on a glucose drip. The kitty is still there but is now doing well. But it could have been a very different story...
.
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terrifying!!!! glad this didnt end in tragedy *shudders*
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
That is SO true, unfortunately. I wish it was different. But a lot of us have seen too many kitties arrive here on insulin doses that are just too high.
And the vet who diagnosed my cat's diabetes suggested I have him PTS. (Glad I didn't follow that advice or we'd not have had these past 9 years...)
And just last night (on the Facebook group), a cat was given 15 units instead of 1.5 because, apparently, that was how the vet showed the caregiver to draw the dose up into the syringe!

Good vets are worth their weight in gold. And I love my vet. But our experience here is that many vets really don't know that much about diabetes. That's not so surprising: They're busy people who deal with multiple ailments in multiple species. They can't keep up to date on everything...
.
Click to expand...
 
sunnydoo48 said:
Wow, that's a lot of feedback on testing. I did some research and asked him about it; maybe I will again. He knows I would do anything for her (and my other babies, too). I would be willing to check her; I'm not so sure she would be willing to let me!!
Click to expand...
When it comes to testing, it is your cat. The treating vet should give an opinion but they're usually along the lines of "you'll ruin the relationship with your cat". However, the anecdotal evidence available here overwhelmingly supports the opposite position (including my own); the cats work out quite quickly that this new and puzzlingly bizarre obsession their person has developed about poking their ears several times a day with a pointy, beepy thing has something to do with them feeling a frelluva lot better. A well-structured home testing routine can actually become quite a pleasurable, incredibly intimate time for bonding and affection. If anything, a well-structured home testing routine can bring you and your cat much, much closer.


Mogs
 
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I checked my needles; they are 8mm, 30 gauge. She is already not enjoying the injections; she'll pull away now and I've had to stick the needle back in to finish. She's loves attention but not necessarily being petted. I'm giving her treats every time; she loves that. Can anyone suggest how I might make this better for her? And now I'm concerned that if this is becoming a problem how well testing will go over with her. Oy!

I want to thank everyone again; I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice.

I hope Mr. Biddles is not upset with Ms. Kira. :(
 
sunnydoo48 said:
I checked my needles; they are 8mm, 30 gauge. She is already not enjoying the injections; she'll pull away now and I've had to stick the needle back in to finish. She's loves attention but not necessarily being petted. I'm giving her treats every time; she loves that. Can anyone suggest how I might make this better for her? And now I'm concerned that if this is becoming a problem how well testing will go over with her. Oy!

I want to thank everyone again; I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice.

I hope Mr. Biddles is not upset with Ms. Kira. :(
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Not at all. Mr biddles totally understands. He's a gentleman and respects ms kira's wishes. He shall admire her beauty and spirited nature from afar. :joyful:

Our needles are 8mm 31 gauge, so basically the same. I think you're just going to have to keep experimenting with procedure that works for the 2 of you. Treats are good, and lots of positive feedback surrounding the injection no matter what. Maybe a few times a day when you arent injecting, touch her they way you would as if you were injecting, with rewards as a result? I dunno i'm just tossing that out there.

I inject when mr biddles is laying on his tummy in his favorite window, looking outside. Thats the best time and position for us.
 
Thanks Jen! Please tell him I am willing to substitute (although no mouse pate, please) but I know I can't compare to ms. Kira :cat:

And thank you for the suggestion. I will try different procedures and see what happens.
 
sunnydoo48 said:
I checked my needles; they are 8mm, 30 gauge. She is already not enjoying the injections; she'll pull away now and I've had to stick the needle back in to finish. She's loves attention but not necessarily being petted. I'm giving her treats every time; she loves that. Can anyone suggest how I might make this better for her? And now I'm concerned that if this is becoming a problem how well testing will go over with her. Oy!

I want to thank everyone again; I can't tell you how much I appreciate your advice.

I hope Mr. Biddles is not upset with Ms. Kira. :(
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When I had to start testing/shooting my second diabetic kitty she proved to be much more difficult than my first one. She was actually better at doing the ear pokes than the injections. Because she has longer hair than her brother when I had her dental done I had the vet shave some small areas in the flank and abdomen for the shots. This has made it much easier since I can see where I am shooting. I do a slight roll of the skin (she has always been a smallish kitty with not a lot of meat on her) and shoot into the bottom of the roll at about a 45 degree angle with the 8mm needles. It has taken some time but now she sits nicely for her ear tests and her shots. Since she is not very food motivated I give her some cuddles and a bit of a brushing after each test/shot. She adores her brushings. Her brother is VERY food motivated so for him a bit of chicken or plain roast as a treat works great.
 
She does love her treats; I think giving her the injection is annoying her because all she cares about is getting to those treats. I'm going to try waiting until I've finished to put the treats out. I like the idea of shaving certain spots to see better, thank you. We do it up on the kitchen table; she spends a fair amount of time there (we have a cat towel on the table that is changed frequently).
 
sunnydoo48 said:
She does love her treats; I think giving her the injection is annoying her because all she cares about is getting to those treats. I'm going to try waiting until I've finished to put the treats out. I like the idea of shaving certain spots to see better, thank you. We do it up on the kitchen table; she spends a fair amount of time there (we have a cat towel on the table that is changed frequently).
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Yeah i dont get out the treats until after all is done.

Mr biddles asks if you care for Pickled Shrew? He's a charmer! ;)
 
Yeah, I think that's the best idea.

Pickled Shrew is not on my eating list, but how about Bird Stew (w/feathers, of course)? :D Yes, he is very charming!
 
Here's some information for you to print and bring to your vet--there are three pieces to treatment that are very important in treating feline diabetes successfully. Diet, home testing, and the right insulin.

AAHA diabetes guidelines

And I've attached a more detailed article about treatment below. I would print both of these out to bring in. Many vets are good vets and just don't have up to date information on feline diabetes, and the research that supports the change in treatment didn't come out until 2009. Cats are now treated very differently than dogs, and recent research has shown that with correct diet (low carb canned food), home testing, and insulin (Lantus or Levemir), most cats will go into remission and no longer need insulin.

Novolin N is good for dogs, but it's not a good insulin for cats. It's hard to regulate a cat on it and it has dangerous drops. Many vets prescribe it because it is low cost, and the better insulins for cats are pricy in the US. However, many of us order them from Canada, which actually makes them more cost effective than the cheaper insulins, and they are much more effective in controlling diabetes in cats. After you change the diet and start home testing, if the Novolin N isn't working well in controlling his diabetes within 4 weeks, I would strongly recommend you try a different insulin that is recommended for cats.

A word of warning--if he's eating dry or high carb food, please do not change the diet until you are home testing! Most cats see a 100-300 drop in blood sugar once the diet has been changed, and the insulin need reduced.

And I can attest, home testing gets much easier as you and your cat get used to it. Bandit fought me tooth and claw when we first started, and I was in tears. But we gave a treat after every test, and now he comes running when he hears the meter beep on, and sits and purrs through the whole test. The pokes don't hurt them--cats have less nerve endings in their ears than people do in their fingers. They just don't like that you're nervous and doing something new to them.

I wish you the best of luck! Diabetes is very treatable in cats, if you focus on points of treatment that have been proven to be successful. :) Bandit has been diabetic for over 7 years, and we've not needed insulin for most of that time, thanks to the advice here on FDMB.
 

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Thank you so much for that information!!!!! I will read it as soon as I get off work! My vet did say the Novolin was much cheaper than other brands; how would I order something from Canada?
 
One other note - she has been very droopy lately, but this morning she was running around like a nut. It was wonderful to see her like that!! She was perky and her eyes were bright. Does this mean that the insulin is helping? She's only been on it since Monday night.
 
sunnydoo48 said:
Thank you so much for that information!!!!! I will read it as soon as I get off work! My vet did say the Novolin was much cheaper than other brands; how would I order something from Canada?
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It's really easy! You just have your vet write you the script for Lantus (glargine), and then you order online from the pharmacy here: https://rxcanada4less.com. You can either fax the script or scan it and send it. The best deal is to get a 5 pack of pens, which costs about $170 after shipping. You draw insulin out of the pens with a syringe just like you would a vial, and each pen is 300 units. Most cats on Lantus need about 1-2 units twice a day, so those 5 pens will last you a year or more. When you break that cost down, the insulin is costing you less than $15 a month. Lantus will last 3-6 months once you've started on a pen/vial if you care for it properly, but the Novolin only lasts 6 weeks in the fridge, so you'll end up throwing most of your vial (1000 units) away. And when you keep in mind that the Lantus will likely help improve your cat's condition a great deal while the Novolin N is not likely to help much, it ends up being the better deal by far.

They do sell Lantus in smaller amounts through the site (you can buy single vials or pens for less), but that is definitely the best deal.
 
Thanks so much for asking! Yes, the drowsiness is gone and she's acting like her normal queen self. :cat: Now watch, when I get home she'll be droopy again. It's been crazy this week; a few of my other cats have been sick too. But thank goodness Kira seems to be much better.

Take care and have a great weekend!
 
Very good to hear back from you, Stacey. I'm glad to hear Kira's nice and perky again; they're called queens for a reason! :D

I hope your other kitties feel better soon, and I wish you all a grand weekend. Be sure to keep us posted on progress!

:bighug::bighug::bighug:


Mogs
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PS...

It is possible that the droopiness in the first few days of insulin treatment may have been down to Kira's body getting used to the 'foreign' insulin. Be sure to keep an eye on it to be on the safe side. If it does re-emerge, let your vet know promptly and also post here for input.


Mogs
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OK....New development. Her voice is really hoarse. She sounds like me with a sore throat. Otherwise acting normal. Is this something unrelated? This is so crazy...
 
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