So confused about Insulin!

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Minet2269

Member Since 2016
Good morning everyone. I'm very confused about giving/not giving Vetsulin injection. Yesterday morning, Minet's BG was 198 so we gave him his 1 U dose. Yesterday evening he was at 90 BG, so we skipped his dose. This morning his BG was 95. Are we supposed to not give him insulin if he's in those numbers, or are we supposed to give it to him twice a day regardless? I don't want to keep skipping doses if it's going to make him worse again. He's only been receiving insulin for 8 days. We've called the vet but haven't heard back from them yet.
 
Are you giving the injections 12 hours apart and with holding food 2 hours before you do the blood glucose test? You never give insulin "regardless". If his numbers drop to low he could go hypo.
 
Injections are normally 12 hours apart. We do the BG test 1/2 hour after he eats, right before we give insulin. We use ReliOn Prime. Yes, we changed him to low carb starting a few weeks ago.
 
You should be doing the glucose test before he eats. Food can bring up the BG numbers. With Vetsulin you should test first, then feed, then give the shot 30 minutes later. Do you have other data from the last 8 days as to what sort of numbers you have been getting?
 
DO NOT give any Vetsulin if Minet is under 200 at preshot test, especially with the low BG readings you are getting. Also if my cat was on Vetsulin and getting those numbers (even on a human meter) I would want to reduce the dose if I needed to give insulin again, firstly because you need a good BG level safety buffer with such a harsh, hard-hitting insulin and secondly - and probably more importantly - the improvement in numbers may point to a sputtering/functioning pancreas and that can make things much more unpredictable so a cautious approach to insulin treatment is very appropriate. (Other members may suggest otherwise so please take any and all opinions offered into consideration along with input from your vet.) ETA - If I got a nadir of 90 on a human meter with Vetsulin I would want to reduce the dose a bit anyway because I personally would be very nervous on that particular insulin with nadirs under 100 on a human meter. With a preshot of 90 I would never give a dose of Vetsulin to my cat; I think it would be highly dangerous to do so.

With a preshot test of 90, no insulin, and then a preshot test of 95 after 12 hours without insulin (and assuming he ate OK) it is possible that he might be heading for remission - anti-jinx! (Yes, it can happen that fast with some cats, particularly after a switch from high to low carbs.)

Please can you do the following (this is based on the understanding that you have NOT given Minet any insulin today):

1. Feed Minet then lift the food when he has finished eating.

2. Wait 2 hours and test again to get a non-food-influenced reading.

3. Feed Minet. Once he has finished eating lift the food.

4. Test at +1, +2, and +3 hours after the meal.

Please post the results of the tests as they might help us to help you determine what Minet's pancreas is up to (if it keeps BG down then it will show that it's at least producing some insulin).


Mogs
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With a fast ac
DO NOT give any Vetsulin if Minet is under 200 at preshot test, especially with the low BG readings you are getting. Also if my cat was on Vetsulin and getting those numbers (even on a human meter) I would want to reduce the dose if I needed to give insulin again, firstly because you need a good BG level safety buffer with such a harsh, hard-hitting insulin and secondly - and probably more importantly - the improvement in numbers may point to a sputtering/functioning pancreas and that can make things much more unpredictable so a cautious approach to insulin treatment is very appropriate. (Other members may suggest otherwise so please take any and all opinions offered into consideration along with input from your vet.)

With a preshot test of 90, no insulin, and then a preshot test of 95 after 12 hours without insulin (and assuming he ate OK) it is possible that he might be heading for remission. (Yes, it can happen that fast with some cats, particularly after a switch from high to low carbs.)

Please can you do the following (this is based on the understanding that you have NOT given Minet any insulin today):

1. Feed Minet then lift the food when he has finished eating.

2. Wait 2 hours and test again to get a non-food-influenced reading.

3. Feed Minet. Once he has finished eating lift the food.

4. Test at +1, +2, and +3 hours after the meal.

Please post the results of the tests as they might help us to help you determine what Minet's pancreas is up to (if it keeps BG down then it will show that it's at least producing some insulin).


Mogs
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I totally agree with what Mogs has suggested. With a harsher, fast acting insulin like Vetsulin it would NOT be safe to give a shot with numbers that low. By doing what she suggested...assuming you have not (hopefully) given the shot... you can see how his body reacts to food, without having external insulin given.
 
Vetsulin usually will bring the glucose numbers down quite a bit in the first 2-4 hours, so it is very possible that Minet's numbers went much lower last night. Generally Vetsulin does not last a full 12 hours in most cats so the fact that the preshot numbers were lower this morning may very well mean that he is getting more insulin than he needs. More data would be very useful to make this determination.
 
it is very possible that Minet's numbers went much lower last night.
Minet didn't get any insulin last night, Mary Ann; the preshot last night and the +12 this morning were both in the 90s!! :)

There may have been a bit of carryover but I'm in the process of crossing fingers and paws over here ... :nailbiting:


Mogs
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Minet didn't get any insulin last night, Mary Ann; the preshot last night and the +12 this morning were both in the 90s!! :)

In the process of crossing fingers and paws over here ... :nailbiting:


Mogs
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YIKES :eek::eek:

Maybe the change to wet low carb has had a big effect. It can take a number of days for the carbs from dry food to leave the system.

Definitely more monitoring is in order. The idea of testing a number of times through the day to check BG without any insulin having been given seems like a good idea.

It may be that a reduction is in order, but without some more data as to how Minet reacts without any insulin on board it is hard to say how much of a reduction. If there is any other data on the numbers over the last 8 days could you post it please and thanks. :)
 
I need to get some rest for a while, Mary Ann (beyond exhausted and I'm in a lot of pain at the mo) but I can check back in later to have a look at Kim's data if she does the testing I've suggested.


Mogs
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I need to get some rest for a while, Mary Ann (beyond exhausted and I'm in a lot of pain at the mo) but I can check back in later to have a look at Kim's data if she does the testing I've suggested.


Mogs
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Thanks Mogs. It is not critical at this time anyway, since there is no insulin in the mix.

You get some rest and look back in later when you are not so exhausted. :bighug:
 
Here's his BG's for the last several days:

5/8/16 542 AM 369 PM
5/9 166 AM 124 PM
5/10 369 AM 161 PM
5/11 367 AM 172 PM
5/12 200 AM 127 PM
5/13 198 AM 90 PM
5/14 95 AM

@Critter Mom - We are having a hard time getting his blood twice a day. He doesn't bleed very well so my husband ends up pricking him 3 or 4 times until he finally gets a decent amount of blood to test. He does warm his ears, etc. beforehand. It's very traumatic for Minet every time he has this done. I just don't think he will tolerate it that many times! My husband even said, "NO WAY!" :0
 
Take a look at this it may help. are you using a lancing device or lancet to prick?
 

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@scoobydoox - I've watched that video a couple of times. My husband does it exactly as it's supposed to be done. He just doesn't seem to bleed well for some reason. Minet has always been one to get stressed very easily. Even cutting his nails is a nightmare!
 
Does he like boxes? or blankets? I remember another member saying there cat likes to get in boxes and use that to get the cat relaxed and then prick the ear.have you tried both ears? what size lancet are you using? the reason i asked about the lancing device is because sometimes its harded to prick the ear with the cap on it. I take the cap off and do it without. I would just use the lancet itself but i dont have a good enough grip. do you give treats or food after your done?
 
No to boxes and blankets. We use 26 gauge lancets without the lancet device. He won't eat after his trauma so treats don't work. He loves to be brushed so that's what we do after.
 
Other suggestion is paw testing but if he doesnt like his nails being clipped that probably wouldnt work either.
 
Just had a look at the data.

Can you confirm that you fed Minet 30 minutes BEFORE getting all those tests - including the 90 and 95 readings, please?


Mogs
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Just keep trying and keep poking for tests. It takes a couple of weeks but additional capillaries will build in that area each time you test. Each one brings you closer to the time that 1 little pokie will get the drop you need - you'll be able to test and log it in 30-45 seconds! In the overall scheme of things and the length of time in his life, a few extra pokies a day for several days isn't a big deal. I know it stinks when you first start...it WILL get easier! Promise!
 
@Critter Mom - Yes, he did eat 30 minutes before the 90 and 95 readings. He doesn't eat a lot (3/4 - 1 0z), but he does eat. He's used to self feeding so it's been hard trying to adjust his eating schedule. With the exception of the last two nights, he didn't eat prior to some of the PM readings because he wouldn't when it was time for insulin. He would eat a couple hours later. By then it was too late to give insulin. We can't adjust to a later time in the morning due to schedules.
 
Just chiming in to say it does get better on the pokes! I thought Winnie would never forgive me after the first few tries. I was so frustrated and felt super guilty for upsetting her. But it's only been a week and now she mostly cooperates and usually bleeds enough on the first poke. You and Minet can do it! Hugs!! :bighug:

Fingers crossed for remission for precious Minet!
 
I am glad that you're posting all this information, Kim.

Sorry to be a pain but can I ask you to repost the BG readings again but this time please include the AM and PM doses (amount given or "Skipped") beside each AM and PM reading. We really need to have visibility of when Minet did or didn't get insulin alongside the BG readings in order to better understand them.


Mogs
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You're not a pain! I'm grateful for your input. I should have done this in the first place.

5/8/16 | 542 AM 1 U | 369 PM 1 U
5/9 | 166 AM 1/2 U | 124 PM skipped (didn't eat)
5/10 | 369 AM 1 U | 161 PM skipped (didn't eat)
5/11 | 367 AM 1 U | 172 PM 1/2 U
5/12 | 200 AM 1 U | 127 PM skipped
5/13 | 198 AM 1 U | 90 PM skipped
5/14 | 95 AM skipped
 
Couple of questions:

1. From what date did Minet start eating ONLY low-carb, wet food?

2. Regardless of when he eats it, does Minet eat enough over each 24-hour period to meet his daily caloric needs on the wet food?


Mogs
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1. We started him on wet food back in February when he suddenly stopped eating his dry. We tried Blue Buffalo canned at the time because that was the brand of dry he was eating. I don't know if it was low carb. He was getting so he wouldn't eat that so we switched to Iams ( can't remember when and again, not sure if it was low carb) which he ate a little of that for a couple of weeks, then lost interest. This process went on from February until April. He was just not eating much and was losing weight. We didn't take him to the doctor sooner because we thought it was just part of him getting older. It was when he stopped eating that we knew it was something more than that. He started eating Fancy Feast in the beginning of May right before he started insulin. Sorry if this isn't more helpful.

2. I don't think he gets enough over 24 hours. I've read he should be getting at least 4 0z, but he only eats about 2 - 2 1/2 on good days. Some days have been even less. My husband has even resorted to giving him food at 2:00 am because he's starving and begging for it then and we want to make sure he's getting enough. I know that's a terrible thing to do, but he lost so much weight and got so weak that we're desperate to try to get his strength back. He was 14 pounds before Christmas, and by the time he was diagnosed May 3 he was down to 8 lbs 6 0z. Today he weighs 9 pounds, so hopefully we're on the upswing. However, his hind hip area still looks emaciated!
 
We feed him when he will eat. He spent 16 years of his life self feeding on dry food, so it's hard to get him to eat at set times which is very frustrating. We intended for it to be twice a day, but he won't eat enough at one setting. We have to feed him a few times a day (including the middle of the night), so he'll get some calories and hopefully get his strength back.
 
We feed him when he will eat. He spent 16 years of his life self feeding on dry food, so it's hard to get him to eat at set times which is very frustrating. We intended for it to be twice a day, but he won't eat enough at one setting. We have to feed him a few times a day (including the middle of the night), so he'll get some calories and hopefully get his strength back.
I had the same issue with my cat then this was recommended to me. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000241NRI/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
It would make things easier especially if you have figured out how about how many hours between when he wants to eat. I had to this with my cat. i started breaking up the food and feeding throughout but its the same amount. You can put ice packs inside the feeder as well to help keep the food fresh
There is info about feeding under weight diabetic cats im just not sure where the post is. Hard to find posts on this forum, i need a fav tab or something lol
 
@scoobydoox - Thank you for the link! My only concern is where do you put the ice in the five slot feeder? The reviews say you can use ice packs with the two slot feeder, but not the five.
 
@scoobydoox - Thank you for the link! My only concern is where do you put the ice in the five slot feeder? The reviews say you can use ice packs with the two slot feeder, but not the five.
I think ice cubes were used for the five but not sure. i like the two slot one because if you feed in morning then set the feeder normally home by evening to feed then can reset for night. so in essence dont need a 5 unless gone all dayy until late. maybe the two would work for you?
Further research looks like you can freeze the food then put in trays to thaw
 
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Have you done any more testing today besides the AMPS of 95? Since you did not give any insulin this morning it would have been informative to see how Minet's body responded to food without external insulin.
 
No,we haven't tested since this morning. As I stated above, testing is a nightmare for us! It's very traumatic for Minet every time. He's never been an easy cat when trying to do anything to him. He gets stressed very easily.
 
Hard to find posts on this forum, i need a fav tab or something lol
That's exactly why I added the setting up the spreadsheet and shortcut shopping list to my signature, so I didn't have to keep looking them up when I needed them :) Would have alot more there if there wasn't a limit to how long it could be lol
 
WARNING: *** LONG POST ***

He started eating Fancy Feast in the beginning of May right before he started insulin.
That's what I needed to know, Kim. I'm glad to hear that Minet is starting to regain weight; my Saoirse has chronic pancreatitis so I can really relate to how worrying it is when our little ones won't eat enough. :bighug:

OK, looking at Minet's data, if he were my cat I would be pleased with the significant downward trend in his BG levels, and I would work on the principle that his pancreas may be showing signs of recovering some beta cell function and starting to help out - especially with the now-reduced carb load in his diet since he was switched to Fancy Feast. Both the diet change and the support from injected insulin are allowing Minet's pancreas to rest and, all going well, recover some beta cell function so that he might start producing enough of his own insulin to cope with the lower carb food.

Minet's PM BG numbers are pretty consistently lower than his AM BG numbers and that is not usual for a cat on Vetsulin; normally the curve is cup-shaped because the dose tends to start pooping out anywhere from +6 after injection time. Taking into account the way that Vetsulin works, Minet may have gone even lower than his PM BG numbers while the dose was still at full force. You were right to skip the doses when you did.

With the huge improvement in Minet's numbers over the past 36 hours and how he kept low without any insulin overnight it is suggestive of his pancreas doing some work. That Minet's BG is registering in the 90s after eating a little food is another reason to suspect that his pancreas may be showing signs of activity (although after 30 minutes the full food rise might not be obvious). If a cat's pancreas is starting to sputter back into action one needs to be extra cautious about insulin administration. I know the testing is tough going for all of you at the moment but no matter how tough it may be, a period of brief stress for a test is far, far better than a hypo. For Minet's safety I would urge you to get pre-feeding AM and PM tests PLUS at least one mid-cycle test any time you give insulin to Minet so that you'll have at least some idea of how low the Vetsulin is taking him (around the +3 mark - might not be quite at nadir but it will alert you earlier if Minet is getting too low for comfort and you'll be better placed to intervene with extra carbs should they be needed). With a possibly sputtering pancreas the best thing you can do to keep Minet safe during this unpredictable period is to grit your teeth and go through the discomfort of getting these tests.

You need to lift food 2 hours prior to test time and you need to test BEFORE giving Minet his food. If he eats beforehand you'll be making dosing decisions on a food-influenced number and that could result in giving a dose when it's not safe to do so. In an ideal situation one should test, feed, then then wait 20-30 minutes before administering Vetsulin (assuming it is safe to give the dose).

I suggest talking with your vet about when to give a token dose and when to withhold insulin. Personally I kept to a high no-shoot number (>200mg/dL on an Alphatrak) for Saoirse when she was being treated with Caninsulin (UK brand name for Vetsulin). After her transition to low carb wet food even a dose of 0.2 IU produced too steep a drop in BG level. I started skipping doses left, right and centre and eventually stopped giving her the Caninsulin on safety grounds even though she was not in remission. Thankfully I was able to secure a Lantus Rx for her and the gentler action of the Lantus allowed me to continue her insulin treatment until she went OTJ. My decisions served Saoirse well and kept her safe.

Going forward I suggest the following strategy for you to discuss with your vet:

1. Do not give a dose of 1IU Vetsulin again; I really think it's too high (doubly so because of Minet's eating pattern and the fact he's not eating as much as he needs right now).

2. Agree with your vet a reasonable no-shoot number (with such little data, Minet's recent BGs and the way that Vetsulin works I suggest sticking to 200mg/dL).

3. Agree with your vet a reduced dose. If it were my cat in these circumstances I would be reluctant to dose more than 0.25IU (if the preshot test was high enough) and I would make sure I got a mid-cycle check to see how low the dose was taking the blood glucose level.

4. If Minet were my cat and his preshot test BG levels remained under 120 without any insulin I would consider running an OTJ trial to see whether he is going into remission. If his numbers were to trend upwards I would keep in close contact with my vet, look at microdosing Vetsulin (when safe to give a dose) for a short period - say, a week to 10 days - to see whether that might nudge him into remission. I would get preshot and at least one mid-cycle test each time I gave insulin (even if the AM test was a +2 it would possibly give warning that the dose might take Minet uncomfortably low and alert you to the need to stay with him; and I would strongly advocate getting a before bed test if you give a PM dose). If that didn't prove successful I would look to switch him to a longer-acting, gentler insulin where there would be greater and safer control of BG levels because the drops would not be as steep.

With regard to Minet not eating enough, it might be worth your discussing with your vet the use of an appetite stimulant. Cyproheptadine is fairly gentle in action and usually a very small dose (1/8 of a 4mg tablet or less for a 10lb cat) can provide just enough support to get a cat more interested in food and also to eat a bigger portion at a sitting. The appetite stimulating effect typically lasts about 8-12 hours, possibly a bit longer. You can dose 3x per day so you can fine tune the med support to the cat's needs. Things to check with the vet are liver function and also blood pressure (it's an antihistamine so may have a vasoconstricting effect). The other appetite stimulant commonly used in cats is mirtazapine. An antidepressant med, it can have an excessively strong appetite stimulating effect, even a small dose can make a cat crazed with hunger (not pretty) and the appetite stimulating effect typically lasts for 2-3 days so it's less controllable. Mirtazapine also carries the risk of inducing serotonin syndrome which can be potentially life-threatening (antidote is cyproheptadine, BTW). The risk of serotonin syndrome may be increased by interactions with other drugs, especially anything that affects serotonin levels. It can interact with buprenorphine (bad case on here a few months ago).

Another thing to ask your vet about is whether supplementation of Minet's diet with L-carnitine might be a valid treatment option; an amino-acid, it can help with building lean muscle mass.

Here are some useful links relating to appetite issues:

Tanya's Site - Persuading cat to eat

Tanya's Site - Nausea and appetite problems and treatments (has info on appetite stimulants)

FDMB FAQs Sticky - Tips for encouraging cat to eat

(NB: If the Tanya's Site links don't work first go, keep trying; sometimes it's a bit tricky to get onto the site. When you do get onto the site print out the pages for future reference.)

Hope some of the above is helpful to you. Note that I am not a vet, Minet is your cat, and you need to discuss all of this with your vet. Please be cautious and do as best you can with the home testing, including mid-cycle tests if you give any insulin; with these conditions it is much more necessary for Minet's safety than if he were in higher numbers.


Mogs
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Hi Kim,

FYI, just spotted this nugget about L-carnitine and I thought I'd share it with you:

Supplementing a cat’s diet with L-Carnitine in amounts approximating 250 to 500 mg per cat per day will aid in mobilizing fat into glucose and will improve the health of a cat that is on a weight loss program.

[Emphasis mine]

Source: http://www.petmd.com/cat/nutrition/..._what_to_do_about_an_overweight_cat?page=show

I'm not sure what impact, if any, L-carnitine may have on blood glucose levels but you'd need to watch its effect on Minet's body fat, especially as he needs to keep weight on. Going purely on conjecture here, I would think that supplementation at an appropriate level may improve fat metabolism and perhaps reduce the amount of protein broken down into glucose thus preserving/promoting the building of lean muscle mass; might be something to include in any discussion with your vet.


Mogs
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@scoobydoox - Thank you for the link! My only concern is where do you put the ice in the five slot feeder? The reviews say you can use ice packs with the two slot feeder, but not the five.

I recently bought the PetSafe 5 and I use ice packs with it. There's an area underneath the tray where you can put an ice pack, located mostly under the section that is currently exposed to be eaten. I haven't been using an ice pack in that area. Instead, there's a hollow area on the underside of the machine and my husband suggested that putting an icepack down and setting the machine on top of it might be more effective for keeping more of the tray cold. I find that a medium size Ziploc freezer bag is a good size - I put a bit of water in it and freeze it nice and flat. We've been doing it this way for a couple of weeks now, and so far, so good. I've included a couple of photos - one of the compartment under the tray, and one of the underside of the machine to show the hollow area. I'm really happy with it so far - Squeak gets her food on time and it sure beats getting up at the crack of dawn every single day!

petsafe001.JPG petsafe002.JPG
 
@Critter Mom - WOW! Thank you, Mogs, for your informative post. I appreciate your taking the time to do this. Minet's BG was 121 this AM, pre-eating. I'm hoping and praying it doesn't rise again. I was liking the lower numbers. He has skipped 4 doses of insulin now because of his low numbers so I guess he technically is trying a OTJ trial. We'll see.

@Elle & Squeak - Thank you for the photo! :)

Has anyone switched vets during their cat's treatment? Ours is very nice, but we may try to find one that has more experience in treating FD, if there is such a thing. I just get the feeling that our current one may not be. I feel like we're getting vague answers, and some other reasons. I've gotten more information here!
 
Has anyone switched vets during their cat's treatment? Ours is very nice, but we may try to find one that has more experience in treating FD, if there is such a thing. I just get the feeling that our current one may not be. I feel like we're getting vague answers, and some other reasons. I've gotten more information here!

Kind of; Winnie had a vet with her foster but we wanted to find one closer to home. I looked at online reviews and called a few that looked good. To my pleasant surprise, most had plenty of FD patients and were enthusiastic about home testing/curves and other practices recommended on here. Worst case scenario, you spend some time (and maybe some $ on consultation fees) and ultimately decide you're most comfortable with your current vet.

Here's the link to suggested interview questions, which I found handy: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/vet-interview-topics.156663/
 
Minet's BG was 121 this AM, pre-eating. I'm hoping and praying it doesn't rise again.
121's OK, Kim! :) I'd love to know what it was after Minet had his grub.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed for little Minet to stay in normal numbers. :nailbiting: Be sure to keep us all posted with how he's doing!


Mogs
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Well that answers that! Thanks for posting that @Elle & Squeak
@Minet2269 Well to be honest the vet situation is a nightmare. The place I go has 3 vets on staff. I have dealt with all three but only for the diabetes I dealt with just two of them. One doesnt know much about diabetes but is nice and willing to work with me. The other is a know it all and thinks 12 units of lantus twice a day is just fine. He has a real attitude so I don't deal with him anymore. Trying to find a vet in my area that has any idea about feline diabetes hasn't worked out for me. So in the end I have chosen to deal with the vet that is willing to work with me for now.
 
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