Smiffy hard to inject

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Looby & Smiffy

Looby & Smiffy

Member Since 2016
So here I am back to square one with Smiffy and the Caninsulin pen .... she doesn't associate me fussing her scruff with feeling better but with me putting a needle in her - even though I know I am not getting her muscle .... I have watched and practised all the desensitising videos. She is still on biscuits for now so just accept that for the time being (!) .... I put her bowl down and she just stares at it even though she is hungry so I pick up the bowl (which is near the stairs ... we live in a very very small cottage that is open plan with no table space) and take out a few biscuits and fuss her scruff and back a bit (she growls a bit), I take the bowl away again and put a few more biscuits down and fuss her scruff and back a bit (she growls more and might even at this point run off)..... if she stays put I repeat but at about the third time I stroke her she runs off and so I end up on the stairs giving her a few biscuits and she is growling ... I show no fear but she still bashes my hand when I put a few biscuits out ... I put the bowl there and she just stares at it ... I fuss her again and talk to her and put few more biscuits out for her and try to get into a reasonable position (all the time I have the pen in my hand but she can't see it) and I have to hold her a bit to get the pen in if I am lucky but she runs off and ends up under the chair in our very small back bedroom ... last night I had to pick up the chair and slip the needle in and she didn't even notice so it doesn't hurt but in the process of all that I have two punctures in my hand from where she has lashed out .........


The same thing happened this morning ... but prior to that she was purring at me in bed and looking at me in the normal way and was behaving like she always does ... so she forgives me eventually .... she is lying around a lot but it is very hot today and there is a little person in the garden next door so she won't go out ... she is drinking a lot now for the first time today but that is because she has only had dry food (don't start about the wet food because I can't do it at the moment but want to when I see the Vet next) ...... she is alert and fine and upright now ... she is a bit depressed I think like me that meal times have to be so stressful as she used to be able to graze on biscuits more or less all day prior to diagnosis and seemed perfectly happy (I know that could have contributed to her illness now) ......... I have got some rescue remedy for humans .. could I put it in her water of on her food?

Ideas please girls ..... can't go any further forward with her until I can get the insulin in her ...... thanks
 
i know you are really, really frustrated right now. i have read your entry closely, and the sister thread about fructosamine.

i am really starting to wonder if smiffy is trying to tell you the caninsulin is bothering her. not the physical pricking of the skin itself, but rather the caninsulin formula.

OR maybe your cat resents you being all over her when she's eating. i don't know your cats's personality. maybe she just wants to be left alone when she eats?

maybe don't give her insulin in association with her food. is this insulin required to be given at mealtime? i'm not familiar with it. maybe you can give her shots completely unrelated to food?

i think you might do well to tell your vet of the difficulties you're having, and perhaps seek out another insulin option.

sorry you're having such difficulties :(
 
ok i JUST saw your recent entry on the other thread. if smiffy doesn't like being touched or brushed, no wonder you cant inject her LOL. you poor thing!

this is in USA, but i'm wondering if something like this might help. its just a thought. might calm her down just for the few seconds you need to inject her. http://cat-in-the-bag.com/ this product is designed as a carrier (i'd never use it that way, personally), but they also say its good to help with cantankerous critters when they need to be medicated/pilled, etc.

she's a tough one!
 
Misterbeesmom said:
ok i JUST saw your recent entry on the other thread. if smiffy doesn't like being touched or brushed, no wonder you cant inject her LOL. you poor thing!

this is in USA, but i'm wondering if something like this might help. its just a thought. might calm her down just for the few seconds you need to inject her. http://cat-in-the-bag.com/ this product is designed as a carrier (i'd never use it that way, personally), but they also say its good to help with cantankerous critters when they need to be medicated/pilled, etc.

she's a tough one!
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Thanks for your comments ...... I HAVE to give the injection her with Caninsulin twice a day with her food 12 hours apart ... she is allowed 35g of biscuits in the morning and 35g in the evening ..... (I know she could be better on wet food but we have not got to that yet as I don't hometest yet and don't want to go off at a tangent here!) ..... ideally she needs the shot about three quarters of the way through her meal so she doesn't go hypo although our Vet says that she is highly unlikely to at the moment even if we injected her on a little food as her numbers are still quite high ...... I think she associates food with me man handling her ..... but it is a good point that she might not like the Caninsulin and I have raised that possibility with the Vet and he just said to watch out for her vital signs ....

A carrier would definitley not be an option I'm afraid ........ just because she would hate it - more of a to do at meal times ..... I think somebody said to let her eat in peace from the bowl for a bit but the thing is she just stares at it and almost expects me to feed her bit by bit now .....

She is lying around doing nothing and seems to have retreated to under the chair in the back bedroom but our other cat is hiding upstairs too in the front bedroom and she is fine as far as I know but it is really humid outside so maybe they are just staying in the coolest part of the house ... plus there is a little person in the garden next door that they don't like .... I think I am gong to have to have a word with the Vet tomorrow when he is in ...

By the way ..... do you test your cats urine with keto - diastix strips? The instructions on line say that you have to count 15 seconds exactly twice to look at the two readings - do I need a clock now? I don't have a second hand watch or clock anywhere in the house ...

She is a tough one .... just went up to see her and she loves her chin to be stroked and she was purring so that is a good sign (:
 
So it's the evening now and put the bowl of biscuits out for Smiffy and she just stared at them ...... so put some on the floor and rubbed her neck ... she ate them but as I went to put some more out on the rug, she ran upstairs and hid under the chair in the bedroom ... I took the bowl up with me and removed the chair and put the bowl in front of her and sat away from her hiding the needle .... she wouldn't eat ... so I went to take a few biscuits out of the bowl and she lashed out at me ..... so left the bowl for a bit but she decided to lie down so I moved slowly towards her with the pen hidden and stroked her, tried to get her scruff up a bit and put the pen in I thought but stuck the needle in the air and into me and the insulin I think is now in me and on the bedroom floor ........ she knows from last night when I had to abort completely that I will leave the biscuits out for her downstairs and she willl come down later to eat them .... this is all very well but she is supposed to eat at the same time each night as part of her regime plus she has not had her shot this evening ..... she has hardly had anything to eat today ...... I am going to go up there now and give her a treat no strings attached to see how she is with me .... and leave her so she knows I am going to give her something to eat without putting a needle into her ..... calling the Vet tomorrow ... this is really really stressing us both out and now our other cat I think ..... any further suggestions?
 
Looby & Smiify said:
it is a good point that she might not like the Caninsulin and I have raised that possibility with the Vet and he just said to watch out for her vital signs ....
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Aggression, hostility and hiding/avoidance ARE vital signs, Looby. They are signs that something is seriously troubling your cat.

I don't normally shout but ...


TELL YOUR VET!!! TOMORROW!!!!


Mogs
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PS:

Like it or not, if you want the best result for Smiffy, you are going to have to manage your relationship with your vet and push to get the best treatments. I'd lay odds that over 90% of the membership here would agree with that assessment (ETA - because so many of us have found out the hard way that vets can't keep up to date with best practice on every condition for every species they're called on to treat and, just like all of us, they're not infallible - much as we might all very much want them to be). You will need evidence for the vet; daily journal of behaviours relative to dose times, water consumption, hunger, lethargy, peeing, etc. Smiffy needs you!


Mogs
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I am thinking it is the type of insulin... just my opinion
Something to consider..... Dre could care less if I inject him when he is standing. If he is laying or sitting down he turns his head and clearly does not like it. I have no idea why but just thought I would throw it out there.
I hope yo get answers!!:bighug:
 
Critter Mom said:
PS:

Like it or not, if you want the best result for Smiffy, you are going to have to manage your relationship with your vet and push to get the best treatments. I'd lay odds that over 90% of the membership here would agree with that assessment (ETA - because so many of us have found out the hard way that vets can't keep up to date with best practice on every condition for every species they're called on to treat and, just like all of us, they're not infallible - much as we might all very much want them to be). You will need evidence for the vet; daily journal of behaviours relative to dose times, water consumption, hunger, lethargy, peeing, etc. Smiffy needs you!


Mogs
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Keep a diary
 
@Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Critter Mom @Diana&Tom Just done the morning ordeal of having to follow her up to the bedroom and move the chair in the end and inject her ...... manged to do it this time ..... she was having none of it to begin with but is now purring with me and came for a little walk with me ..... it has just occured to me too that she is such a Daddy's girl ... tail goes up as soon as he gets in that I think on top of everything else (as well as our neighbour letting their dog out in our communal passage - yappy cat-hating terrier!) Smiffy doesn't understand why her Daddy is not here so I think there is a bit of separation anxiety there too ... she is glued to me now and much brighter today now that it is not so hot .... she won't sit on her bed - it is a thermal bed that warms to her body when she sits on it (actually just replaced it) ... maybe it is too hot for that ...

I have got a banging headache today so I will have to see how I go as to calling the Vet if I can catch him if I feel a bit better later .... Smiffy is fine with me now but I will do my darndest to call him ......... she is not hiding upstairs now like she was yesterday .... didn't sleep at all last night ..... feel really rough so I will see how I feel later ... wish me luck and that I feel a bit better ... have to look after myself so that I can look after Smiffy ....even Pasha is more lively today so it must have been the heat yesterday that drove them to hide in the bedrooms ....
 
@Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Diana&Tom @Critter Mom ....have called the Vet on the day that Smiffy has really perked up ... Friday the 13th now ...... he is in ops and consults back to back today but I have said it is urgent ...... the receptionist said there was no guarantee that he would be able to call back but I have a feeling he will as he knows that I am on my won ..... I am sure that Smiffy is missing her Daddy ... .she is behaving much more normally today ... staying with me most of the time and going out for little walks into the gardem and we are now five hours after her shot ...... I still have a really bad headache so I am going to rest up today a bit .....
 
Looby & Smiify said:
@Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Diana&Tom @Critter Mom ....have called the Vet on the day that Smiffy has really perked up ... Friday the 13th now ...... he is in ops and consults back to back today but I have said it is urgent ...... the receptionist said there was no guarantee that he would be able to call back but I have a feeling he will as he knows that I am on my won ..... I am sure that Smiffy is missing her Daddy ... .she is behaving much more normally today ... staying with me most of the time and going out for little walks into the gardem and we are now five hours after her shot ...... I still have a really bad headache so I am going to rest up today a bit .....
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Will let you all know if he calls .... she is off into the sunshine at the moment ... that's my girl!!!!
 
I am glad you called the vet. I hope he gets back to you today and that he does something useful. You need to tell him how many insulin doses have been missed in order to give him a full picture of Smiffy's status.


Mogs
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Critter Mom said:
I am glad you called the vet. I hope he gets back to you today and that he does something useful. You need to tell him how many insulin doses have been missed in order to give him a full picture of Smiffy's status.


Mogs
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He was very reassuring and we discussed all her clinical signs along with the good fructosamine result and came to the conclusion that she is stable according to all the professional references (quoted idexx) and the most important thing that we have to overcome for the moment is that I have a cat that doesn't like to be injected or handled much so he has recommended that I get some feliway spray and an infuser (need to try as many relaxants as we can to find the right one for her) .... and zylkene capsules that I can open and sprinkle over her food ....... there is no strong case for me to change her diet at the moment especially as I have to feed her bit by bit to get her to eat which I can't do with wet food and he said that he had got lots of cats her age to lose weight on the dry food regime so I have to believe that that is true as there is no reason for him to lie (plus the fact she doesn't like wet food) anyway I HAVE to get these flipping needles in her so that is what I am going to concentrate on at the moment or there is NO chance of her getting better ... it is reallly really difficult having a cat that is so adorable that hates needles and being picked up so much ..... what is the alternative? I am not going to have her put to sleep ..... I have to get the injections .... have ordered some of the above on Amazon ... he suggested that I spray myself too as they do at the surgery so that might help as I approach her ..... I also think she will be a bit better when her Daddy is back ........ have you heard of IDEXX? They are the organisation to whom the fructosamine tests are sent ..... sorry I am just going to see if I can find somewhere to get the zylkene and felliway sooner from ....
 
Critter Mom said:
Did the vet have any comment on the possibility that Caninsulin may be disagreeing with Smiffy?


Mogs
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Yes and he said that if she shows signs of being ill then we should take a look at it but she is not drinking so much and she is not peeing so much, her coat has virtually no dandruff now so all the clinical signs are good ..... she is a bit sleepy but then so is Pasha who is also upstairs and not going anywhere much today ... I am beginning to wonder if there is something outside that has really scared Pasha ... neither of them go much further than the bottom of the garden now ..... have you ever used Zylkene?
 
Looby & Smiify said:
Yes and he said that if she shows signs of being ill then we should take a look at it but she is not drinking so much and she is not peeing so much, her coat has virtually no dandruff now so all the clinical signs are good .....
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Saoirse had the same clinical signs on Caninsulin. But she was still hiding, still hated injections, still lethargic during the period of Caninsulin peak effect. Just because her blood glucose levels had improved it did not automatically follow that the Caninsulin was making her feel well; it was doing quite the reverse. She let me know that by trying to get away from the injections.

There is no way of knowing for certain whether Caninsulin may be at the root of Smiffy's hostility toward injections but there is precedent in other cats and that is worth giving serious consideration. If the Zylkene and Feliway don't resolve the aggression and hostility I suggest you go back to your vet again and discuss the possibility of trialling a different insulin. You can help yourself by making daily observations and keeping comprehensive records of how Smiffy behaves and what her energy levels are at different times in each cycle:

1. Before insulin.

2. In first 3 hours after injection.

3. From +3 - +9 hours after injection

4. Between +9 hours after injection and the time of the next dose.

Also keep a close monitor on Looby's water consumption over these periods and keep a daily log of these data as well. Look for patterns in the information you record. This is the best way you have of learning to 'listen' better to Smiffy. Don't duck the recording - and do it as you go along; without it you won't remember what you observed. Record anything worthy of remark in any way, however subtle, as these clues may point you to a treatment plan that really works for Smiffy; one which won't result in the two of you being miserable at least twice a day.

Test Smiffy's urine daily and keep a log of the results. If it's positive for glucose then you will know that for at least part of the day she is unregulated. If she gets a series of urine test results that are negative for glucose contact your vet and arrange for Smiffy to have her blood glucose tested (ETA - as a matter of urgency) - preferably mid-cycle at home if your vet will do a house call. If Smiffy starts to come in constantly under the renal threshold her dose may need to be reduced for safety because you're not home testing.


Mogs
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Critter Mom said:
Saoirse had the same clinical signs on Caninsulin. But she was still hiding, still hated injections, still lethargic during the period of Caninsulin peak effect. Just because her blood glucose levels had improved it did not automatically follow that the Caninsulin was making her feel well; it was doing quite the reverse. She let me know that by trying to get away from the injections.

There is no way of knowing for certain whether Caninsulin may be at the root of Smiffy's hostility toward injections but there is precedent in other cats and that is worth giving serious consideration. If the Zylkene and Feliway don't resolve the aggression and hostility I suggest you go back to your vet again and discuss the possibility of trialling a different insulin. You can help yourself by making daily observations and keeping comprehensive records of how Smiffy behaves and what her energy levels are at different times in each cycle:

1. Before insulin.

2. In first 3 hours after injection.

3. From +3 - +9 hours after injection

4. Between +9 hours after injection and the time of the next dose.

Also keep a close monitor on Looby's water consumption over these periods and keep a daily log of these data as well. Look for patterns in the information you record. This is the best way you have of learning to 'listen' better to Smiffy. Don't duck the recording - and do it as you go along; without it you won't remember what you observed. Record anything worthy of remark in any way, however subtle, as these clues may point you to a treatment plan that really works for Smiffy; one which won't result in the two of you being miserable at least twice a day.

Test Smiffy's urine daily and keep a log of the results. If it's positive for glucose then you will know that for at least part of the day she is unregulated. If she gets a series of urine test results that are negative for glucose contact your vet and arrange for Smiffy to have her blood glucose tested - preferably mid-cycle at home if your vet will do a house call. If Smiffy starts to come in constantly under the renal threshold her dose may need to be reduced for safety because you're not home testing.


Mogs
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I keep a diary of her behaviour and clinical signs ........ difficult to know what is what when a) it is hot b) her Daddy is away and c) the little person that has moved in next door and the dog that is out the back in the morning has seriously effected both our cats ... Pasha is behaving just like Smiffy - up in the front room in the shade and avoiding the garden next door ....... we have a communal passage that runs along the middle of our back garden so two of our neighbours have access to the passage that our cats used to use to get to another plot of land that we have .... one neighbour has a noisey toddler and the other for the time being has a little yappy dog that much to my disgruntlement and disgust they allow to run in the passage and into our second garden!!!! I have complained but the woman that owns it is one of those bossy Alpha female types that thinks she owns the place now! They are selling up soon ......Anyway the point is I am keeping a diary and told him about it .....if I am not getting every injection in then Smiffy is bound to be a bit all over the place .. one day she has her full dose of insulin and the next day she doesn't poor thing ..... I am reluctant to corner her in the bedroom but that is what I had to do last night .... I am going to put a felliway plug in thingy there where she lies ..... this is really wearing me out ....

I have got a Felliway spray that is dated use by August 2013 - do you think I could get away with using it until the stuff that I have ordered arrives?

Somebody else on the Facebook Feline Diabetes Group that Elizabeth belongs to suggested Anxitane - said that it worked eventually on her cat?
 
I am glad Smiffy is having a good day.

Make sure you record the above observations in your behaviour log and also record how many hours after her injection this behaviour occurred. You will learn from times when Smiffy is good as well as times when she is off. You need to record both.


Mogs
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@Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Critter Mom Put bowl down tonight, she stared at it, I moved to start desensitisation process, she ran into bedroom, I took bowl upstairs (with Felliway sprayed on my right sleeve), removed chair, injected her with no fuss then put chair back and put bowl out for to eat from, then removed it and took it downstairs with me but called out that to get her to the top of the stairs and left her in peace to eat, then moved bowl down to normal rating place ... Not ideal but injected and much less stress and she came and sat on the rug next to me for a bit whilst I watched TV then went back upstairs probably to sit on my bed ...she slept with me last night on the bed instead of under the chair ...." I have ordered a couple of Felliway plug ins one of which I can put right next to her under the chair as well as Ziltene capsules and anxitane!!! She has just come downstairs again at 3.30 ...... So got both injections today and she has been much better and outside three times and more sociable and even chased Pasha up and down the stairs so a bit of exercise too .... She's hungry now so will be hungry at shot time later this morning (I fell asleep in front of telly again!) ..... Been much cooler today so she has been better for that really reason too ...... Improvement! Pleased .... If that's how we do it and can improve on it that way I am happy :)!
 
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