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wlm

wlm

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Hey Everyone

Glad to have found this . We have a 9 year female diagnosed 2 months ago . I have spent about 800 bucks at the vet . I ran a glucosamine panel , checked kidney and thyroid(came back normal ) and the cat has been on insulin . The Brand is Pro Zinc. SHe is on 6 units and her wieght is 8lbs. she was 11lbs when this started .

The vet keeps uping the dose and we are losing hope bc her sugars are in the high 500s . she drinks water constantly . I asked the vet is we could have missed the dose and are dealing with a symogi effect but she thinks not . THey are advising me to do a full body xray and more labwork .

I am going to start home testing her bc i think the vet is wrong .
 
Hi Wlm, and welcome to you and your kitty. :)

wlm said:
The vet keeps uping the dose and we are losing hope bc her sugars are in the high 500s . she drinks water constantly . I asked the vet is we could have missed the dose and are dealing with a symogi effect but she thinks not .
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I'm sorry to hear that you've been having difficulty getting your kitty regulated. As you mention above it is possible that the dose was increased too fast or in increments which were too large and consequently a suitable dose may have been 'skipped over'; we see a lot of that here. The other possibility is that she may be a high dose cat, though that is far less common.

Home testing will help you tremendously in determining exactly how the current dose is affecting your girl. If you record the results in one of our spreadsheets you'll be able to share the results and get input from members here who have a lot of experience with Prozinc. Here are some useful links to get you going:

Testing and Injection Tips (very helpful diagram of where to test on the ear)

Home Testing Links and Tips (includes video tutorials)

How to set up an FDMB Spreadsheet

We have a very active support group for Prozinc where you'll be able to get a lot of help with your particular insulin. Here's a link to the Prozinc Support Group subforum. There are some helpful stickies at the top of the board for you to read through. For other questions the best place to post initially is on the main Feline Health board (gets more traffic than the Welcome section).

Be sure to ask for any help you need. Hopefully we'll be able to help you improve things for your little one. :)


Mogs
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I am going to start recording wednesday . How do you fill that spreadsheet out . it looks very confusing . I will post a pic of girly later. How frequently do i check her sugars during the day . i work in a hospital and use needles and syringes so this part has been easy and checking her sugar should be a breeze. she is easy to handle (for me ) and i should have no issues getting reading > im getting a human meter so do i need to convert results ?
 
Hello and welcome. It sounds like you are experiencing the same nightmare I am having. It must be something with vets in pa!! Test anywhere from 3 to 5 times a day. Starting with before you give the morning shot and no food 2 hours before that. Then about 6 to 7 hours later and before evening shot same as morning, then 2-3 hours after the evening shot. Did you vet do a curve? Most people use a human meter on the forum wont need to convert. Mine was about ten points off from the test the vet ran for glucose. What type of food are you feeding?How many days go by before you vet is upping the dose?
 
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First up, you don't need to do any conversion of human meter results; you just use a cat-specific reference range for human meters. FDMB uses 50-120mg/dL as the normal BG range for a cat, and most of the BG references you'll see quoted in forum documentation will be for human meter users (unless specifically stated otherwise - some of us use veterinary meters so there are sometimes posts/discussions relating to the reference ranges appropriate to those meters). When you're choosing a meter try to avoid any with 'Tru(e)' in the name: some members have reported that they're not really reliable for testing a cat's blood. Relion Confirm and Micro glucometers are popular in the US. (Let us know if you live outside the US and need meter recommendations.)

Basically, the spreadsheet is a grid where you fill in dates, doses and BG results. You need to test before each insulin dose to make sure it's safe to administer the injection. You need to lift any food two hours before the preshot tests so that they won't be food-influenced. Then you need to test in the hours between doses to check how low the dose is taking your kitty (the nadir BG level). Prozinc users will be able to guide you as to the best times to check for the nadir for that particular insulin. At minimum it's a very good idea for safety to do a 'before bed' test a few hours after the evening dose; a lot of cats run lower at night so a spot check before turning in for the night will give you peace of mind that your kitty will be OK for the rest of the cycle or whether you need to test later in the cycle to make sure she doesn't go too low (giving food, etc. to make sure there are enough carbs in her system to keep her numbers in a safe range).

To fill in the spreadsheet:

AMPS / PMPS: Fill in the BG value from morning/evening preshot test.

U: Fill in the amount of insulin given (morning and evening).

+1, +2, etc: BG test results taken +1 hour/+2 hours/etc. after the dose was given. For example, if you give the insulin dose at 8pm and then test at 11pm that's three hours post-dose so the BG test result would be entered in the PM +3 column.

Remarks: It's useful to record information about feeding, meds, or important clinical signs in this column. (It can provide useful context for better assessing the BG test results.)

The colour coding is built into the spreadsheet; when you enter the BG numbers the cells will change colour automatically for you. (The colour coding makes it easier to spot patterns of response in the BG data.)


Mogs
.
 
scoobydoox said:
Hello and welcome. It sounds like you are experiencing the same nightmare I am having. It must be something with vets in pa!! Test anywhere from 3 to 5 times a day. Starting with before you give the morning shot and no food 2 hours before that. Then about 6 to 7 hours later and before evening shot same as morning, then 2-3 hours after the evening shot. Did you vet do a curve? Most people use a human meter on the forum wont need to convert. Mine was about ten points off from the test the vet ran for glucose. What type of food are you feeding?How many days go by before you vet is upping the dose?
Click to expand...


merrick dry 74 percent protien carbs 26% . which is low carb for dry food . i want to switch to wet in the morning. but first gotta get these sugars in check . also the vet upped it every 7 days . she gets real stressed when she goes too . i have cat on auto feeder so wet is not gonna work with this one . i need to switch both kitties over to wet so she cant steal the dry .

my vet did a blood glucose check which is the history of average blood sugar . at 3 units she was in the 400s 12 hours after shot . she was back up in the 500s last time but she gets very stressed so i dont know how accurate it is . she eats like a piggy and drinks and pees alot . lost a little wieght but holding 9 pounds. also she is acting better than before she got diagnosed. i need to hit up walmart for that meter asap
 
Critter Mom said:
First up, you don't need to do any conversion of human meter results; you just use a cat-specific reference range for human meters. FDMB uses 50-120mg/dL as the normal BG range for a cat, and most of the BG references you'll see quoted in forum documentation will be for human meter users (unless specifically stated otherwise - some of us use veterinary meters so there are sometimes posts/discussions relating to the reference ranges appropriate to those meters). When you're choosing a meter try to avoid any with 'Tru(e)' in the name: some members have reported that they're not really reliable for testing a cat's blood. Relion Confirm and Micro glucometers are popular in the US. (Let us know if you live outside the US and need meter recommendations.)

Basically, the spreadsheet is a grid where you fill in dates, doses and BG results. You need to test before each insulin dose to make sure it's safe to administer the injection. You need to lift any food two hours before the preshot tests so that they won't be food-influenced. Then you need to test in the hours between doses to check how low the dose is taking your kitty (the nadir BG level). Prozinc users will be able to guide you as to the best times to check for the nadir for that particular insulin. At minimum it's a very good idea for safety to do a 'before bed' test a few hours after the evening dose; a lot of cats run lower at night so a spot check before turning in for the night will give you peace of mind that your kitty will be OK for the rest of the cycle or whether you need to test later in the cycle to make sure she doesn't go too low (giving food, etc. to make sure there are enough carbs in her system to keep her numbers in a safe range).

To fill in the spreadsheet:

AMPS / PMPS: Fill in the BG value from morning/evening preshot test.

U: Fill in the amount of insulin given (morning and evening).

+1, +2, etc: BG test results taken +1 hour/+2 hours/etc. after the dose was given. For example, if you give the insulin dose at 8pm and then test at 11pm that's three hours post-dose so the BG test result would be entered in the PM +3 column.

Remarks: It's useful to record information about feeding, meds, or important clinical signs in this column. (It can provide useful context for better assessing the BG test results.)

The colour coding is built into the spreadsheet; when you enter the BG numbers the cells will change colour automatically for you. (The colour coding makes it easier to spot patterns of response in the BG data.)


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
thanks that is great and helpful
 
wlm said:
merrick dry 74 percent protien carbs 26% . which is low carb for dry food . i want to switch to wet in the morning. but first gotta get these sugars in check . also the vet upped it every 7 days . she gets real stressed when she goes too . i have cat on auto feeder so wet is not gonna work with this one . i need to switch both kitties over to wet so she cant steal the dry .

my vet did a blood glucose check which is the history of average blood sugar . at 3 units she was in the 400s 12 hours after shot . she was back up in the 500s last time but she gets very stressed so i dont know how accurate it is . she eats like a piggy and drinks and pees alot . lost a little wieght but holding 9 pounds. also she is acting better than before she got diagnosed. i need to hit up walmart for that meter asap
Click to expand...
I think what is happening is the shot is wearing off and the vet isnt getting a true reading. If you start feeding wet food that will help as well. Also lantus is a good insulin to and a lot of us use it. It is also associated with remission. Unfortunately a lot of vet don't really understand how to treat feline diabetes.
they sell autofeeders for the wet food to i was just looking at a couple types some of the members have mentioned they use. If you go to walmart they have a coupon right now for sheba wet food on there site and the relion meters and supplies are the cheapest. i have the relion prime 9.00 and the confirm micro are like 14 + if you can free hand the ear you wont need the lancing device just the lancets which are cheap you can also buy syringes at the walmart pharmacy for cheaper than the vet and you can order insulin cheaper than vet as well. rxcanada4less.com/index.html
do you want the links for the meter and supplies?
http://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Mea...60937369&sr=8-3&keywords=automatic+pet+feeder
 
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Welcome from another PA'er. The Merrick dry is still to high in carbs. No dry is best. However, do not stop it until you are home testing. Removing it suddenly can cause a very sharp decrease in BS and the amount of insulin you are giving could lead to severe hypoglycemic episode.

Glucose readings at a vet can run higher due to stress. Once you start testing and see what's going on, you will be able to transition off the dry safely.

The Petsmate feeder has a 5 compartment one and a 2 compartment one. Wet food can be used in both. The mini cold packs and mini 're-useable cubes fit in them. You can also freeze meal portions or put an ice cube it the food which will help add water to it.

Keep us posted.
 
Before you switch to wet, low carbs please be HOME TESTING. With the switch to low carb, wet food the BG can crop up to 100 points. We don't want your kitty hypoing because of the food change and you not catching it and can treat her. Ny kitties were both hypoing on dry and when I went to wet they went faster and lower (although I wasn't using PRoZinc). Just, please, home test and do not remove all dry until you know what the BG is doing.
 
wlm said:
my vet did a blood glucose check which is the history of average blood sugar .
Click to expand...
This sounds like it is a fructosamine test which gives an average of what BG has been over a period of approximately 2 weeks. This test is not a measure of BG itself but rather other blood components affected by BG levels. The results of this test can be affected by other blood values, missed shots causing kitty to run high, or overly low number events, so it may or may not provide an accurate picture of how regulated or un-regulated kitty is and should not be used to determine insulin dose requirements. Dosing should be based on how low a dose takes the cat's BG. This is why we so strongly recommend home testing. It's the only way to get an accurate picture of how the dose is working for your cat.

Not sure if you are giving 6 units per day or if this is at 12 hours intervals but even 3 units every 12 hours given the size of your cat, sounds like a hefty dose of insulin and may very well be the cause of continuing high readings. Sometimes too much insulin looks like too little. Only by home testing and seeing how low the dose is taking Home testing will provide data to see how low the insulin is taking your cat and whether the dose is too low or too high.

And as others have said, DO NOT change diet until you are home testing. A change to a wet diet can cause major reduction of BG making it necessary to lower the insulin dose so monitoring closely during the change is the only way to keep your kitty safe.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
This sounds like it is a fructosamine test which gives an average of what BG has been over a period of approximately 2 weeks. This test is not a measure of BG itself but rather other blood components affected by BG levels. The results of this test can be affected by other blood values, missed shots causing kitty to run high, or overly low number events, so it may or may not provide an accurate picture of how regulated or un-regulated kitty is and should not be used to determine insulin dose requirements. Dosing should be based on how low a dose takes the cat's BG. This is why we so strongly recommend home testing. It's the only way to get an accurate picture of how the dose is working for your cat.

Not sure if you are giving 6 units per day or if this is at 12 hours intervals but even 3 units every 12 hours given the size of your cat, sounds like a hefty dose of insulin and may very well be the cause of continuing high readings. Sometimes too much insulin looks like too little. Only by home testing and seeing how low the dose is taking Home testing will provide data to see how low the insulin is taking your cat and whether the dose is too low or too high.

And as others have said, DO NOT change diet until you are home testing. A change to a wet diet can cause major reduction of BG making it necessary to lower the insulin dose so monitoring closely during the change is the only way to keep your kitty safe.
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That is great info . Yes i believe it was fructosomine.

A fewquestions

Do i change her insulin dose of 6 units twice daily or start checking sugars first
 
So the dose is 6u twice daily? Yikes! That is a huge dose of insulin for any cat other than those with a high dose condition and it's highly unlikely your cat has any of those conditions. I think what is happening is that you give the insulin, kitty's BG starts dropping and then her body perceives her BG going too low and her natural defences kick in to bring her BG levels back up by mobilizing stored glucogen. This makes it look like her BG is running high when in fact it likely is going dangerously low. This is why Frustosamine testing should NOT be used to determine dosing. If she were my cat, I would cut back on the dose immediately to either 0.5u or at most 1u twice daily and get the home testing started ASAP.

It is highly likely that the high carb dry food is what has kept your kitty able to deal with this large dose up to now so PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE DIET in any way until you lower the dose and can monitor at home.

It would be best if you start posting over on the ProZinc forum HERE now for advice from the folks most familiar with that insulin. They will be able to guide you and help you keep your kitty safe and get her on the road to better health!

wlm said:
i think the vet is wrong .
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I couldn't agree with you more! Your instincts are right on!

BTW what is your beautiful kitty's name? She is gorgeous!
 
Hey there, just wanted to say hi and welcome. You have all ready been given a lot of good information. I am in PA also. I am in Bucks County. @Woodsywife , she is in the Poconos. Where do you live. Asking so that if we are close enough in distance and you needed any help to show you how to home test, perhaps I could help you. Glad that you found this forum because there is a wealth of information and help here, much more than you could ever get from your vet, sadly, and most of us could say that about ours. Keep posting and asking questions and welcome to you and your kittie. Let us know her name. :)
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey there, just wanted to say hi and welcome. You have all ready been given a lot of good information. I am in PA also. I am in Bucks County. @Woodsywife , she is in the Poconos. Where do you live. Asking so that if we are close enough in distance and you needed any help to show you how to home test, perhaps I could help you. Glad that you found this forum because there is a wealth of information and help here, much more than you could ever get from your vet, sadly, and most of us could say that about ours. Keep posting and asking questions and welcome to you and your kittie. Let us know her name. :)
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figures im on the wrong side of the state lol
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
So the dose is 6u twice daily? Yikes! That is a huge dose of insulin for any cat other than those with a high dose condition and it's highly unlikely your cat has any of those conditions. I think what is happening is that you give the insulin, kitty's BG starts dropping and then her body perceives her BG going too low and her natural defences kick in to bring her BG levels back up by mobilizing stored glucogen. This makes it look like her BG is running high when in fact it likely is going dangerously low. This is why Frustosamine testing should NOT be used to determine dosing. If she were my cat, I would cut back on the dose immediately to either 0.5u or at most 1u twice daily and get the home testing started ASAP.

It is highly likely that the high carb dry food is what has kept your kitty able to deal with this large dose up to now so PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE DIET in any way until you lower the dose and can monitor at home.

It would be best if you start posting over on the ProZinc forum HERE now for advice from the folks most familiar with that insulin. They will be able to guide you and help you keep your kitty safe and get her on the road to better health!


I couldn't agree with you more! Your instincts are right on!

BTW what is your beautiful kitty's name? She is gorgeous!
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Her name is girly. Sometimes i just call her hunny.lol
Im going to drop back to maybe one unit but am scared her sugar will be too high . Before insulin her sigar was in the 500s 600s
 
It's better for Girly (cute name for a very cute little fur kid!) to run high than too low. If the dose is too high, you will never get her regulated and it's harder on her body and could be disasterous. Rachel suggested maybe reducing to 2 units over on the ProZinc forum. It's up to you if you want to try 1u or 2u but I think it's vital to reduce the dose and see how it's working and then you can slowly increase from there if needed. Girly could be feeling very poorly just because of the high dose she's been getting. Once you get her a little more stabilized and can monitor well, the change of diet can be done too which will no doubt lower her need for insulin even further.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
It's better for Girly (cute name for a very cute little fur kid!) to run high than too low. If the dose is too high, you will never get her regulated and it's harder on her body and could be disasterous. Rachel suggested maybe reducing to 2 units over on the ProZinc forum. It's up to you if you want to try 1u or 2u but I think it's vital to reduce the dose and see how it's working and then you can slowly increase from there if needed. Girly could be feeling very poorly just because of the high dose she's been getting. Once you get her a little more stabilized and can monitor well, the change of diet can be done too which will no doubt lower her need for insulin even further.
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Nice and yes im scared to reduce her dose but am going to anywau . 2 units each dose. I can aleays give more but can give less after i hive her the shot. Is it the fancy feast classic or does it say low carb on the can
 
FF Classics are what you will want going forward (there is no labelling about carbs on the cans) but please DO NOT change Girly's diet just yet. You need to find a safe dose of insulin for her and be monitoring her closely before any food changes. The difference between the Merrick kibble 26% carbs and the approx. 5% carb in many of the FF pates is enormous and will have a huge effect on Girly's BG. If her BG is running high from getting too high a dose of insulin so far, you need to let her system get calmed down on a lower dose before making a huge change in her diet.

I understand how desperately you want to help Girly but patience is necessary when dealing with a diabetic cat. Baby steps right now!
 
wlm said:
Nice and yes im scared to reduce her dose but am going to anywau . 2 units each dose. I can aleays give more but can give less after i hive her the shot. Is it the fancy feast classic or does it say low carb on the can
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Please, please listen to the experience here. They will not guide you in the wrong direction. I felt scared too at the beginning, but I decided that the doses I was giving my kitties was not doing them any good. So, I prayed and followed. I am so glad I did!
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
It is highly likely that the high carb dry food is what has kept your kitty able to deal with this large dose up to now so PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE DIET in any way until you lower the dose and can monitor at home.
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^This.^

It is vital that you start home testing before even thinking about changing Girly's diet. You need to keep her safe.


Mogs
.
 
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