? Anyone Giving their cat sub q fluids?

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Viveca and Noah

Viveca and Noah

Member Since 2016
My cat, Noah, has ckd, along with diabetes, and has begun to show some symptoms of dehydration - besides drinking frequently, which I'm long used to. Today, he had some labored breathing for a few minutes. Also, I think(?) his gums are starting to feel a little more tacky than moist and I believe his third eyelids are starting to poke out a teeny tiny bit at the inside corners of his eyes. His appetite is generally pretty good, although not as much today. I inquired with my vet about starting daily sub q fluids and he said it wouldn't necessary until Noah stops eating; I don't agree with this, at all. Anyone giving their ckd/diabetic cat sub q fluids with relatively early signs of dehydration?
 
I have given sub-Q fluids to many of my cats with kidney insufficiency. I always gave them under direction of my vet. The labored breathing bothers me because that is a symptom of heart problems and yo have to be careful giving sub-Q fluids to cats with heart problems.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
I have given sub-Q fluids to many of my cats with kidney insufficiency. I always gave them under direction of my vet. The labored breathing bothers me because that is a symptom of heart problems and yo have to be careful giving sub-Q fluids to cats with heart problems.
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The one thing, to the best of my (and the vet's) knowledge that Noah has is a very strong heart. His heartbeat was quite fast, this morning, but It's not withing normal pulse range. Is it a question of possible edema if I give him fluids with a fast heartbeat?
 
Squeaker was on sub-q for a year due to CKD and he had a 2/6 murmur with RCM. Labored breathing can be caused by dehydration, anemia, and can also be symptomatic of CHF.

If there is dehydration present, your vet could give the fluids. I would, however, want to know the kidney values as it can progress quickly.

I did just notice two things in your signature, mild regenerative anemia so maybe have blood work done. Also you are currently giving a potassium supplement? Is the K level not stable? This indicates excessive urination and also supports the need for fluids.
 
Anitafrnhamer said:
Squeaker was on sub-q for a year due to CKD and he had a 2/6 murmur with RCM. Labored breathing can be caused by dehydration, anemia, and can also be symptomatic of CHF.

If there is dehydration present, your vet could give the fluids. I would, however, want to know the kidney values as it can progress quickly.

I did just notice two things in your signature, mild regenerative anemia so maybe have blood work done. Also you are currently giving a potassium supplement? Is the K level not stable? This indicates excessive urination and also supports the need for fluids.
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Thanks for the response, I actually just posted Noah's latest labs to his ss. The k is actually troubling me a little; he's been getting 1/4 tsp k bid for a while now. In his last chem panel on Dec 28, he k level was 3.8 (low normal range). Nevertheless, the vet instructed me to go up to 1/3 tsp bid of k. He's been on this hilgher dose for a month, now, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with his labored breathing (and pretty fast heartbeat) today. Noah's actually always had a really good/strong heart, so I'm not sure what to think. I just don't know if sub q fluids would be a good idea at this point, or might actually day more harm than good.
 
Low K as well as anemia can not only cause murmurs but can elevate heart rate. I agree with your vet that the higher dose in the short term is a good idea to bring the level up a little. You might want to consider having a cardiac workup by a board certified cardiologist.

The primary purpose of fluids is to hydrate and replenish electrolytes. Many people think the primary purpose of sub-q is to "flush" the kidneys and while it can do that as well as lower BUN and Cre; the primary purpose is to rehydrate and replenish electrolytes that have been washed from the system. Cats with CKD do tend to drink more sometimes due to dehydration but also as the disease progresses.

Another issue to complicate the whole thing is that high protein diets can cause elevated kidney values as well. I noticed that you are feeding raw.

Here is a great source of information on CKD you may need to refer to it in the future: http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm

Some of these issues, anemia, and kidney values may well clear up when the diabetes is well controlled.

Two tests that may help diagnostically that your vet can run are a SpecFPLI to rule out pancreatitis (wasn't sure how to interpret the results as it is written "62 range is 8 to 26" and to at least rule in/out Hypertropic Cardiomyopathy (HCM) you can ask your vet for a ProBNP test. However it is still possible that Restrictive Cardiomyopathy could be present.
 
Anitafrnhamer said:
Low K as well as anemia can not only cause murmurs but can elevate heart rate. I agree with your vet that the higher dose in the short term is a good idea to bring the level up a little. You might want to consider having a cardiac workup by a board certified cardiologist.

The primary purpose of fluids is to hydrate and replenish electrolytes. Many people think the primary purpose of sub-q is to "flush" the kidneys and while it can do that as well as lower BUN and Cre; the primary purpose is to rehydrate and replenish electrolytes that have been washed from the system. Cats with CKD do tend to drink more sometimes due to dehydration but also as the disease progresses.

Another issue to complicate the whole thing is that high protein diets can cause elevated kidney values as well. I noticed that you are feeding raw.

Here is a great source of information on CKD you may need to refer to it in the future: http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm

Some of these issues, anemia, and kidney values may well clear up when the diabetes is well controlled.

Two tests that may help diagnostically that your vet can run are a SpecFPLI to rule out pancreatitis (wasn't sure how to interpret the results as it is written "62 range is 8 to 26" and to at least rule in/out Hypertropic Cardiomyopathy (HCM) you can ask your vet for a ProBNP test. However it is still possible that Restrictive Cardiomyopathy could be present.
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Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking of the fluids in terms the electrolytes. The idea of "flushing the kidneys" hadn't even occurred to me. The "62, range is 8 to 26" refers to the results to the PrecisionPSL test, which is equivalent to the FPLI, but the result number range is on a completely different scale, so I was giving the range for the test that he did have reference. Consulting a veterinary cardiologist is a great idea. thx :)
 
With your explanation of the lipase question, it does look like Noah has a fairly serious case of pancreatitis. What is typically done for that is sub-q (pancreatitis can also cause dehydration) and when Squeaker had it, I found B12 injections helped. Sometimes they also exhibit nausea and stomach acid and can also experience lack of appetite, vomiting, and diarrhea.
 
Hi Viveca,

A course of B12 injections really helped Saoirse when she had the really bad pancreatitis flare, too.

Pancreatitis can sometimes trigger panting and, as Anita says above, dehydration. I always add a little water to Saoirse's wet food now, since she stopped using the water bowl after the switch from kibble.

Here are some very useful links regarding pancreatitis for you:

IDEXX Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines

Nausea Symptoms and Treatments

General Article on Pancreatitis

I'd suggest caution with any recommendations about probiotics: both ibdkitties and Tanya's Site reference a human study where they were contraindicated for pancreatitis. Saoirse can't tolerate FortiFlora and I recently trialled an enzyme supplement with probiotics and that sent her hiding after only a tiny, tiny dose.

If Noah does show any signs of nausea, raising food and water bowls is a simple thing but it can help a lot.


Mogs
.
 
Anitafrnhamer said:
With your explanation of the lipase question, it does look like Noah has a fairly serious case of pancreatitis. What is typically done for that is sub-q (pancreatitis can also cause dehydration) and when Squeaker had it, I found B12 injections helped. Sometimes they also exhibit nausea and stomach acid and can also experience lack of appetite, vomiting, and diarrhea.
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Thanks for the advice, I may up his B12 injections from 2x/month to 1x/week.
 
Critter Mom said:
Hi Viveca,

A course of B12 injections really helped Saoirse when she had the really bad pancreatitis flare, too.

Pancreatitis can sometimes trigger panting and, as Anita says above, dehydration. I always add a little water to Saoirse's wet food now, since she stopped using the water bowl after the switch from kibble.

Here are some very useful links regarding pancreatitis for you:

IDEXX Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines

Nausea Symptoms and Treatments

General Article on Pancreatitis

I'd suggest caution with any recommendations about probiotics: both ibdkitties and Tanya's Site reference a human study where they were contraindicated for pancreatitis. Saoirse can't tolerate FortiFlora and I recently trialled an enzyme supplement with probiotics and that sent her hiding after only a tiny, tiny dose.

If Noah does show any signs of nausea, raising food and water bowls is a simple thing but it can help a lot.


Mogs
.
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Thanks Mogs. I might up his b12 injections from 2 to 4x/month. For Noah, Fortiflora saved his life; his ibd had flared up terribly and, with Fortiflora, symptoms disappeared, so, it's a calculated risk. Thanks for the raising water/food tip. Just did it.:)
 
Viveca and Noah said:
Fortiflora saved his life; his ibd had flared up terribly and, with Fortiflora, symptoms disappeared, so, it's a calculated risk.
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I think that's an example of ECID in operation. Hence my suggestion for caution, not exclusion. :) It's a bit like pancreatitis kitties and fat sensitivity. Saoirse's fairly OK with mammal fat but has issues with the likes of salmon oil and sunflower oil. Managing digestive system issues is very, very much a case of Know Thy Cat. :rolleyes: ;)

I'm really, really glad the Fortiflora helped Noah to recover from the IBD flare. Saoirse had a bad pancreatitis flare and I'm still haunted by it.

This is for you --> :bighug:. And this is for Noah --> :p.

(Every time I see his dotey little face in your avatar I always poke out my tongue back at him. :oops: )


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
I think that's an example of ECID in operation. Hence my suggestion for caution, not exclusion. :) It's a bit like pancreatitis kitties and fat sensitivity. Saoirse's fairly OK with mammal fat but has issues with the likes of salmon oil and sunflower oil. Managing digestive system issues is very, very much a case of Know Thy Cat. :rolleyes: ;)

I'm really, really glad the Fortiflora helped Noah to recover from the IBD flare. Saoirse had a bad pancreatitis flare and I'm still haunted by it.

This is for you --> :bighug:. And this is for Noah --> :p.

(Every time I see his dotey little face in your avatar I always poke out my tongue back at him. :oops: )


Mogs
.
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:bighug: to you, too, Mogs. And right back at you from Noah :p(He's working on his manners, I promise)

I'm sorry that Saoirse had such an agonizing experience with pancreatitis. I don't blame you for being traumatized by it. Can I ask you what symptoms she showed and how you treated her?
 
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