? young again vs TR

[jayla-n-Drevon]

I was just reading some older posts and alarms went off!

Drevon will sometimes not eat before I have to leave for work-I ordered YA 0 carb for those mornings to give him a spoonful or so --
We are on TR and a post I just read said he must be on ALL wet food-
can he have a small amount if refusing the wet? It would only be when I cannot be home (3 mornings a week)
I also contacted the company via email-they said I have a 85% chance of remission with ALL YA zero carb and" why am I testing so much it is hard on me and the cat- I should only test pre shot"--this kind of annoyed me oh and why am I giving fluids….like it is a hobby? err
would I have to switch to go slow if he gets any of this food?

 

[AZJenks]

There's nothing incompatible about following the Tight Regulation protocol and supplementing Young Again. Plenty of people here do it. If your cat will eat it, it's as fantastic and as nearly carb-free of a dry food as you can get ahold of.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

@AZJenks Thank you!

 

[AZJenks]

You're welcome. Best remission wishes to you and your kitty!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

TR requires a low carb wet food or raw diet. From the TR Protocol sticky:

REQUISITES WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

• Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
  Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
  More monitoring may be needed.

• It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.

• Learn the signs of and how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA and prepare a HYPO TOOLBOX.

• Test regularly for ketones and know about DIABETIC KETOACIDOSIS (DKA).

• Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.

• Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet.

• Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.

It's probably OK if you crumble up a few pieces and sprinkle on his wet food.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

@Wendy&Neko Thank you Wendy-

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet.

If the carb load of the YA dry food is the same or lower than that of canned food/raw food, why does the "texture" matter? The only other difference between the YA dry and canned food, if YA is in fact under 5% carb, would be moisture content.
So unless the moisture content is a factor in TR, I don't see why YA would be precluded as a food option. Is it possible that the food requirement for TR was developed before YA existed and perhaps the food criteria could be revised to allow the YA?
One could argue that Friskies would not generally be viewed as a "high quality" canned food yet many folks successfully use it for TR.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Anything you can do with dry food you can also do with canned low carb.

If you're worried he might not eat the regular food, try exploring toppers. In the "New to the Group?" sticky, near the bottom there is a post on stimulating a kitty's appetite with many ideas. Some sprinklers off the top of my head: parmesan cheese, tuna water, oregano, catnip, pulverized dry food (just a sprinkle), or fortiflora (available online or at vet's) - maybe he'll like some of those. Some people keep an assortment of canned foods and leave out a little sampler dish.

There are people who use dry food with Tight Reg, but given that it's specifically contra-indicated, I wouldn't. Specifically, I wouldn't feed dry food unless my cat wouldn't eat canned or raw, even after me spending months trying. It's not just about the carbs, it's also about the dryness of the foods.

My non-diabetic cats are all eating only canned food. It's simply too dry for any cat, and especially for diabetic cats who already struggle with dehydration (all those high numbers? all that pee?). You see how many diabetic cats also have kidney disease - because diabetes is hard on the kidneys. Why add the dehydration from dry food if you have any choice? Dr. Lisa has a lot about the problems with dry food on www.catinfo.org. To me, it just seems an added risk to a cat's kidneys when a diabetic cat is already compromised.

Just saw your last post - there have been some lower carb dry food - EVO kitten is one, but the study that resulted in the Tight Reg Protocol used only canned low carb.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

I am wondering if part of the reason is if you need to raise the BG if the kitty is too low-I am also thinking YA is fairly new but I am not really sure. I do agree wet food is best as we already do have kidney issues-this was a last resort if I have to leave thing and honestly I don't even know if they will like it-
I have tried fort flora-cat nip and tuna-chicken-ham-salmon with no luck but I will keep trying the other things-I can vita mix the YA if they like it and sprinkle-
Since Dre was dx and I pulled all the dry away my other guy who was a puker hardly pukes at all now on wet-
Thank you all for the input-I wish they weren't so fussy!

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

by the way, I'd suggest you link this to your condo for today. One thing you can do when you have a question is to just edit your subject line and let it all go into the current day's thread. That keeps all the info on Dre (like that you're having trouble with him always eating, which is important to know) in the daily condo. We encourage everybody to just keep editing the subject line of their daily condo (thread) throughout the day to reflect whatever is important, or questions, along with the latest tests.

Hope that makes sense - I'm having trouble saying it clearly, LOL!

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

by the way, I'd suggest you link this to your condo for today. One thing you can do when you have a question is to just edit your subject line and let it all go into the current day's thread. That keeps all the info on Dre (like that you're having trouble with him always eating, which is important to know) in the daily condo. We encourage everybody to just keep editing the subject line of their daily condo (thread) throughout the day to reflect whatever is important, or questions, along with the latest tests.

Hope that makes sense - I'm having trouble saying it clearly, LOL![/QUOTE

oh boy--I don't know how to link it
I will do that in the future--can I link this to the earlier thread? Totally didnt think of that-

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

ah, didn't realize you didn't know how to link.

When you start a new post in the morning (or whenever) in the first post of that thread, you want to include a link to yesterday's thread.

First step - open this morning's thread. Before you click "submit"

2. go to yesterday's thread (condo). Go to the web address, the URL box - the one that says "www.felinediabetes.com.blah blah blah" Click on it. While it's highlighted copy it. Do you know how to do that part? If not, just say so.

3. Go back to this morning's thread and go to the first post in the thread. Put your cursor into the box wherever you want the link to go.

Now look at the top of the box where you're writing your first post, there is a row of icons - Bold, Italic, Underline . . . and then a paper clip type icon. That's to link a website address.

4. Click on the paper clip and a box will pop up. Put your cursor in the box and paste the address that you copied from yesterday's thread. Then click "insert" and it will paste it into your post.

It's easier than all of that sounds. Let me know if you have trouble and I'll break it down one step at a time while you do it. Gotta love technology!

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

ah, didn't realize you didn't know how to link.

When you start a new post in the morning (or whenever) in the first post of that thread, you want to include a link to yesterday's thread.

First step - open this morning's thread. Before you click "submit"

2. go to yesterday's thread (condo). Go to the web address, the URL box - the one that says "www.felinediabetes.com.blah blah blah" Click on it. While it's highlighted copy it. Do you know how to do that part? If not, just say so.

3. Go back to this morning's thread and go to the first post in the thread. Put your cursor into the box wherever you want the link to go.

Now look at the top of the box where you're writing your first post, there is a row of icons - Bold, Italic, Underline . . . and then a paper clip type icon. That's to link a website address.

4. Click on the paper clip and a box will pop up. Put your cursor in the box and paste the address that you copied from yesterday's thread. Then click "insert" and it will paste it into your post.

It's easier than all of that sounds. Let me know if you have trouble and I'll break it down one step at a time while you do it. Gotta love technology!

This is a job for the bf--he will be back tomorrow, I will have him do it I posted in main health before L&L about YA--should I have him link them all?
FYI--I read the letter from your cat yesterday it was awesome! It is soooo true -
I will get this connected tomorrow evening--I won't be posting before then unless is problem anti jinx!

 

[Melanie and Smokey]

There's nothing incompatible about following the Tight Regulation protocol and supplementing Young Again.

People may say they are following TR and feeding it, but they are not following TR if they are feeding any dry food and are usually corrected in the forum.

The Requisites of the TR Protocol are what make it safe to follow. A cat's body will process dry food differently than wet food (its not all about carb content) and there is no way to account for that on the fly in an emergency. With dry food in the mix, things needs to be adjusted to make sure your cat is safe.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

The TR protocol (any protocol) is a set of guidelines, not laws etched in stone.

Lots of people, given they are loaded with data and they "know thy cat", go "outside the lines" as needed.

The "requisites" predate YAZC, and were written when low carb dry wasn't a realistic option.

Nobody is going to suggest that a diet of only low carb dry is appropriate with TR. As far as safety, as long as the CG is aware of what to do when low numbers happen, and they "know thy cat", they're going to break out the high carb options as needed. If I knew that a nice slurry of Cap'n Crunch and Aunt Jemima would bring my cat's numbers up during a "hypo", that's what I'd use. ECID.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

The TR protocol (any protocol) is a set of guidelines, not laws etched in stone.

Lots of people, given they are loaded with data and they "know thy cat", go "outside the lines" as needed.

The "requisites" predate YAZC, and were written when low carb dry wasn't a realistic option.

Nobody is going to suggest that a diet of only low carb dry is appropriate with TR. As far as safety, as long as the CG is aware of what to do when low numbers happen, and they "know thy cat", they're going to break out the high carb options as needed. If I knew that a nice slurry of Cap'n Crunch and Aunt Jemima would bring my cat's numbers up during a "hypo", that's what I'd use. ECID.

Carl, I would def eat a slurry of Cap'n'Crunch ( my childhood fav) if needed! LOL

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

As far as safety, as long as the CG is aware of what to do when low numbers happen, and they "know thy cat", they're going to break out the high carb options as needed.

Sorry, Carl. If we were talking about SLGS, I'd agree with you, but we're not.

We're talking about TR. TR (when followed as written) is an extremely aggressive method with safeguards built into the protocol. The requisites are part of the "safeguards". The requisites came from those who authored the protocol. The requisites are not something we've added or suggestions we've made. In my opinion, it's not up to us to dismiss any single one of those requisites when we could very well be looking at a safety issue.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

lots to take in……..

 

[AZJenks]

Reasonable minds can disagree, but I personally see no issues doing Tight Regulation while occasionally supplementing with Young Again. At its core, TR is basically (1) feeding low carb food; (2) testing regularly; and (3) making regular, calculated dose changes based on the nadir.

There's no dispute that Young Again is a low carb food. Heck, it's lower carb than any of the Friskies food I currently have access to. Jayla has already mentioned that her kitty is eating wet food regularly. It is only occasionally, when the cat refuses wet food and it's time to leave the house, that the consideration is being made to supplement with Young Again. This is not a situation where we're talking about feeding the cat exclusively a low carb dry food.

So if the option is to give the cat some Young Again and guarantee that it will eat, or to give it wet food knowing it's not going to eat anything while you're away, I can't imagine anyone here recommending the latter as a responsible course of action.

If you're testing regularly, you know how your cat behaves, you're feeding a predominantly low(er) carb wet food diet, and you know how to handle low numbers, honestly what harm is there to give Young Again when you have to? I get that there is a general disdain for the food on this forum, but come on. Sometimes you just have to get your cat to eat.

 

[Louellen]

Reasonable minds can disagree, but I personally see no issues doing Tight Regulation while occasionally supplementing with Young Again. At its core, TR is basically (1) feeding low carb food; (2) testing regularly; and (3) making regular, calculated dose changes based on the nadir.

There's no dispute that Young Again is a low carb food. Heck, it's lower carb than any of the Friskies food I currently have access to. Jayla has already mentioned that her kitty is eating wet food regularly. It is only occasionally, when the cat refuses wet food and it's time to leave the house, that the consideration is being made to supplement with Young Again. This is not a situation where we're talking about feeding the cat exclusively a low carb dry food.

So if the option is to give the cat some Young Again and guarantee that it will eat, or to give it wet food knowing it's not going to eat anything while you're away, I can't imagine anyone here recommending the latter as a responsible course of action.

If you're testing regularly, you know how your cat behaves, you're feeding a predominantly low(er) carb wet food diet, and you know how to handle low numbers, honestly what harm is there to give Young Again when you have to? I get that there is a general disdain for the food on this forum, but come on. Sometimes you just have to get your cat to eat.

I'd have to agree here with the idea that we're looking at carb content mainly when it comes to TR. Young Again IS low carb without the moisture content.
If Jayla is giving kitty mainly wet foods on a regular basis, does her testing then, giving her cat Young Again isn't really changing the carb content much and I, personally, don't see the difference here either???

Like AZJenks has said, there ARE going to be times when ALL of us are going to have to feed our cats what they will eat when their appetites are lower and sometimes (listed as a condoned food or not), a low carb kibble is going to be the choice that cat is going to make while the pet parent keeps an eye on numbers and adjusts accordingly.

That's just my 2 cent's worth.

 

[Louellen]

lots to take in……..

Jayla...there is lots to take in here but, don't let it overwhelm you too badly. All of us here have had issues where we can't get our cats to eat what they should eat for differing reasons, including lifestyle and the cat's preferences in foods.

All of these "rules/regulations" are more or less meant to keep your cat SAFE and out of a deadly hypo situation. Please keep in mind that there are lots of knowledgeable people who are "duking it out" in here over details to achieve that purpose and NO ONE in here is a vet. Everyone is simply a layperson with a lot of knowledge, based upon a study which set up a "protocol/method" or whatever one wants to call it. NO ONE has the authority to override these numbers because no one is a vet. I do believe it's in the disclaimer on this forum as well.

Relax a bit and if you're truly concerned, recognize that you've always got the choice of checking in with a vet who knows about diabetes too. There's LOADS of debates on these issues going on in here. Don't let it upset you or confuse you too much. When in doubt...read in here but, also check with your vet. That's your safest bet and covering all angles. Hope this helps you to calm down some?

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

The simplest answer for a cat that can't go to all low carb canned or raw diet is to just follow the guidelines from SLGS. Everyone gets it that there are cats that won't transition to dry food. Keeping them eating whatever they will eat is the most important thing, of course.

It's just that Tight Reg isn't the only choice out there.

The underlying message of the people who are saying that Tight Reg isn't for those who need to feed dry food is simply concern for the safety of the cat because the Tight Reg guidelines specifically require canned low carb or raw food. Anytime you ignore a requisite you increase the potential for something to happen to a cat and none of us wants that to happen.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

I understand the general disdain for the food on this forum, but come on. Sometimes you just have to get your cat to eat.

Sorry, I don't think this has anything to do with the subject. To my knowledge, no one has ever said to withhold food from any cat. Cats have to eat. Period.

So if the option is to give the cat some Young Again and guarantee that it will eat, or to give it wet food knowing it's not going to eat anything while you're away, I can't imagine anyone here recommending the latter as a responsible course of action.

I can't either. If all I could get my cats to eat was a plate full of pasta... that's exactly what they'd get. Eating trumps all. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, if one deviates from the requisites of a method or protocol... than one is no longer following that method/protocol.

I think Melanie summed the matter up quite nicely when she said:

The Requisites of the TR Protocol are what make it safe to follow. A cat's body will process dry food differently than wet food (its not all about carb content) and there is no way to account for that on the fly in an emergency. With dry food in the mix, things needs to be adjusted to make sure your cat is safe.

When following TR we are, for the most part, increasing doses every 3 days. Supposedly, it takes 3 days for the effects of dry food to clear kitty's system... which is why some TR protocols around the web require a 3 day (dry food) detox prior to starting their protocol. Are you willing to take responsibility for your cat or someone else's cat if for example, the effects from being fed dry food clear the system as a bounce is breaking? Yikes. That could be a problem!

The TR protocol some follow in this forum requires the following:

TR requires a low carb wet food or raw diet. From the TR Protocol sticky:

REQUISITES WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

• Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
  Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
  More monitoring may be needed.

• It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.

• Learn the signs of and how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA and prepare a HYPO TOOLBOX.

• Test regularly for ketones and know about DIABETIC KETOACIDOSIS (DKA).

• Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.

• Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet.

• Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.

The requisites do not say, "If your cat won't eat wet food, you may substitute dry food in an effort to make sure they eat."

If one doesn't want to adhere to the requisites of the protocol, that's fine. No one says a member has to do anything any certain way. However, I wouldn't get too comfortable thinking the aggressive dosing technique in the TR protocol will be safe for your cat if you're feeding dry. The method was written for kitties on a wet, low carb canned or raw diet. Nor would I expect anyone to give suggestions or offer advice when asked if the safeguards already built into the method have been compromised by feeding dry food. And let's not forget... we do have SLGS, folks!

Safety is the number one priority on this message board. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've said it. How responsible is it for anyone here to take a published study, change it, and expect the technique to hold true and more importantly, as safe for our kitties as originally written?

Anytime you ignore a requisite you increase the potential for something to happen to a cat and none of us wants that to happen.

Amen.

 

[AZJenks]

Respectfully, I think Carl astutely pointed out that this iteration of the protocol predates Young Again and other ultra low carb dry foods.

I would completely agree that following TR and feeding a high carb dry food could be a dangerous combination. The regular dose increases combined with the drastic reduction that can follow the withdrawal of high carb dry food is indeed a serious concern. Surely that's the rationale behind the canned food "requisite".

But we're not talking about high carb dry food here. We're talking about food with, for all intents and purposes, no digestible carbs whatsoever. So unless someone is willing to make the argument that feeding a low carb/high protein/high fat diet, without regard to moisture content, is not compatible with TR, then I'm not sure what the issue is.

Specifically, what danger does Young Again pose to the protocol?

Unless this topic gets moved to a separate thread, I'm going to refrain from commenting further. I already regret inciting a debate over the merits of Young Again and derailing Jayla's thread, and the last thing I want to happen is for her to be reluctant to ask questions in the future because she feels unwelcome or somehow the source of controversy, when in fact that is anything but the case. My sincerest apologies @jayla.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

I don't know that I'd call it astute, lol.

I understand Jill's replies above, and also that "we" shouldn't just be randomly making changes to a published protocol. Yes, YAZC predates the study/protocol.
Perhaps the authors see no need to examine whether zero/low carb dry food could be used with TR. Maybe it has never even occurred to them?
But until they choose to do so, and ammend the protocol accordingly (or not), making changes to it isn't "our" place, KWIM?

One big factor is "how long do the carbs from any dry food take to clear a cat's system" vs wet food? Nobody knows for certain, but most agree that dry food takes longer than wet food to both digest and to "clear". One thing for sure, there are times in a cycle that you don't want the bottom to drop out when you least expect it. If feeding dry food can cause that to happen, then everyone above that has mentioned " safety" is right on the money.

ETA - in the interest of full disclosure, I have never used Lantus or Lev, nor did I follow TR or SLGS, with Bob. And the day before he was diagnosed with diabetes was the last day he ate dry food.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

In my life outside of this board, there are lots of protocols that have been developed to treat certain problems. You need to understand and adhere to the requisites of those protocols if you want to utilize that method and ostensibly get the desired results. If you don't, as Jill pointed out, you're not following that protocol and the outcomes are up for grabs.

What I think is getting confounded is the issue of feeding high vs low carb dry food. It is an accurate statement that when TR was developed, YAZC was not on the market. However, dry food -- regardless of the carb content -- is metabolized differently than canned food and I believe this is the core of what's being discussed. For the purpose of discussion/comparison, EVO cat and kitten dry is relatively low in carbs. No one is saying that they would feed EVO. What's the distinction between EVO and YAZC (since the latter is not really zero carbs)?

Unless Roomp & Rand or someone else is going to undertake the research on a good sized sample of cats to see if a dry food such as YAZC can perform in the same way as canned food when using TR, what we have are the requirements of TR that exclude dry food. These requirements give a newly diagnosed cat the best chance for remission. Unless your cat refuses to eat canned food, I don't see that the compromise of "sneaking" in some dry food is worth jeopardizing the chance of remission or worse, the safety of a cat.

Just my 2 cents.....

 

[Melanie and Smokey]

f I knew that a nice slurry of Cap'n Crunch and Aunt Jemima would bring my cat's numbers up during a "hypo", that's what I'd use.

And you'd be following TR's requisites for the hypo kit - "...whatever simple sugar you have."

Respectfully, I think Carl astutely pointed out that this iteration of the protocol predates Young Again and other ultra low carb dry foods.

It really doesn't. Maybe YA, but low carb dry food has been around for a while. There were 3 options when we started with Smokey, Wellness Core was low enough back then, EVO, and I can't remember the other one. There isn't anything that special about YA other than they have really good sales people that convince people its the golden grail. Its not about disdain for dry food (the implication that any of us would put our own personal feelings about something in front of the well being of a cat is really kind of rotten). Its about the process in the protocol and making sure it is followed safely. Its stated over and over in the boards that dry food is processed differently in the cats body - slower in, slower out. When you are taking cats into lower BGs and holding them there, using foods that do not process the same can be dangerous. It really isn't just the carb content. TR is about managing the timing of everything just right.

Currently jayla has in her signature line that she is following TR and feeding only low carb wet food. I can guarantee that many people would give different advice if she came to the board and said she has her first preshot number under 100 and needs to leave so she can't monitor if they knew she fed him dry food going into that number. Dry food influenced numbers are different that numbers that are not dry food influenced - even if it is low carb dry food. I don't point that out to say jayla is doing something wrong, I point that out to show how dangerous it can be. The advice she gets could be completely wrong because people helping anyone following TR believe the TR requisites are being followed.

Feeding your cat IS the most important thing. If he is off his food enough that he will not eat anything but dry on a regular basis, then it is probably time to drop out of TR and not be as aggressive in dosing. It isn't safe to aggressively dose a cat that isn't eating well regardless of what you are getting him to eat. If you only feed dry once in a blue moon, then just be sure that it clearly notated on the spreadsheet so that any time you ask for help, the people helping you can see it and take it into consideration when giving you an answer so it is a safe answer.

 

[JC & Balki]

In the tight regulation study, they used one type of food (supposedly ideal) to eliminate variables I assume. So cats that did not eat that food were eliminated from the study. In real life you can feed your cat whatever you want and follow tight regulation. I never took high carb dry food away and my cat went into remission. We never experienced any drops and bounces (apart from the initial one of course) and my cat remained safely in normal numbers on insulin until remission. He has remained in remission for years, now on senior and renal dry food. Personally, I think it is a safer way to follow tight regulation. We actually received help from Jacquie Rand and UQ Diabetes Clinic, and whilst it was not their preferred diet, they had no problem with what we did feed and never once suggested that we could not follow their protocol.

There are many cats in remission on dry food and many not in remission on low carb wet food. To me, that says diet is not the key. Every case will be different and probably a lot more depends on why a cat became diabetic in the first place, how soon treatment was initiated, and type of insulin and protocol used.

How many times has a cat gone DKA due to not eating the recommended (not required) food, the owner refused to give anything else and was then afraid to give insulin? I don't see how anything good comes from obsessing about diet to this level. All that should matter is what works or is best for any individual cat.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

As Jill previously noted, a cat has to eat and the best food to feed is what your cat will eat.

I do not believe that food was restricted in the TR study in the way you describe. Cats were fed low carb, canned food but I don't recall their sticking to one brand.

What you describe with your cat is atypical -- it's wonderful but not what I'v'e seen here over the years I've been a member of the board. It also suggests that there was probably some other reason than less than functional pancreatic beta cells that caused your cat to be in diabetic numbers. I can't say that Ive ever seen a cat here experience DKA because a caregiver refused to feed the "recommended" food but I've certainly seen cats fall out of remission because they fed their kitty dry food. For most of the cats that go into remission here, they become a diet controlled diabetic. Keeping the cat on a healthy diet of low carb, canned food maintains their glucose control.

I would also be remiss in pointing out that most dry foods contain ingredients that cats can't digest. Cats are obligate carnivores. They require protein and certain nutrients.

 

[JC & Balki]

I know of quite a few cases where cats are in remission on dry food, I don't believe it is that uncommon. Since it is not allowed here on TRP, how often do you get to see if it works anyway? I also see a lot of cats out of remission on low carb. It's too easy to blame dry food for everything.

Balki was obese at diagnosis and certainly we were told that he likely had diabetes from the common cause. Our vet had in fact warned me for several years that he would get diabetes if I didn't take action. He only had symptoms for two weeks prior to treatment. The experts advised us to continue insulin for at least three months despite the normal levels, to allow the pancreas time to heal, and I believe this is why we had success. I also believe that months of insulin at normal levels would not have been possible to achieve on low carb, at least not for Balki. Of course, it is all just speculation, there is no way to know.

My obligate carnivore has done well on high carb dry food, and with his other health conditions there is no way he would be here today if I had fed otherwise, no question about that at all. He does far better on low protein.

 

[Doodles & Karen]

I do believe a wet food is the superior choice however YAZC is truly low carb. While diet is a big factor, my firm belief is that obesity and lack of exercise is the root cause of most diseases in humans and our pets. I have respect for everyone's opinion and wish the best for all the kitties fighting this horrible disease.

From the Roomp & Rand Study and the TR Sticky also says
" The suggested "guidelines" in the Tight Regulation Protocol are just that... guidelines. Not hard and fast rules.

Low-Carbohydrate Diet
Cats are obligate carnivores, and it has been demonstrated that glycemic control
increases when diabetic cats are fed a low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet
(<15% metabolizable energy).15,16 Wet-food diets more often have a lower carbohydrate
content than dry-food diets and are also beneficial in that they have been shown
to facilitate weight loss in obese cats.17–20 The highest remission rates described in diabetic
cats have been achieved in studies using glargine or detemir, in which cats were
fed a high-protein, low-carbohydrate wet-food diet with 6% or less energy from carbohydrates.
3,4,6 Although the choice of an optimal insulin increases the probability of good
glycemic control and remission, the choice of diet also has an important effect.16 The
use of low-carbohydrate food (12% compared with 26% energy from carbohydrate)
resulted in statistically higher remission rates (68% compared with 41%) despite similar
protein levels.21 There have been no comparative studies using diets with lower carbohydrate
levels, such as those reported to be associated with remission rates of more
than 80% in newly diagnosed diabetic cats (6% of energy from carbohydrate).

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

I never took high carb dry food away and my cat went into remission.

Congratulations! Given all his other health issues listed on your spreadsheet, you're extremely fortunate. Of course, some might ask if some of these health issues may have been lessened or possibly avoided if kitty had been fed a species appropriate diet. I know I always wondered if I could have avoided the diabetes diagnosis with Alex if I had only been better informed.

We never experienced any drops and bounces (apart from the initial one of course) and my cat remained safely in normal numbers on insulin until remission.

No surprises there. If the high carb food isn't eliminated, there's no chance of it "wearing off" at inopportune times... which negates the mention of it in the context of this thread.

We actually received help from Jacquie Rand and UQ Diabetes Clinic, and whilst it was not their preferred diet, they had no problem with what we did feed and never once suggested that we could not follow their protocol.

Ah, this makes all the difference in the world! I strongly suggest those who want to follow the TR protocol used on the FDMB while feeding dry food follow suit. Enlist the help of a world-renowned researcher in the field of feline diabetes such as Jacquie Rand.

There's a huge difference between one-on-one help received in real time from a licensed vet who is well known and well versed in the treatment of feline diabetes and seeking help on the Internet from lay persons who are simply helping others... volunteers who are given a set of requisites and guidelines such as in the published protocol used here. Because we are not vets... because we are not there with you and your cat... all we can responsibly do is work with what we're given... from the experts. There's a difference!

I think it would be horribly irresponsible for me or any other lay person on this forum to change or brush aside any of the requisites given in a protocol.

I know I'm not prepared to do this:

REQUISITES WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

• Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
  Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
  More monitoring may be needed.

• It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.

• Learn the signs of and how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA and prepare a HYPO TOOLBOX.

• Test regularly for ketones and know about DIABETIC KETOACIDOSIS (DKA).

• Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.

• Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet. <---------- 01/07/2016: JC & Balki says "you can feed your cat whatever you want and follow tight regulation."

• Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.

Personally, I prefer to make suggestions and base recommendations with a little more behind them than a single person's say so... especially when that person is not a vet, is not associated with the document, nor is a known researcher in the field, but that's just me.

There are many cats in remission on dry food and many not in remission on low carb wet food. To me, that says diet is not the key. Every case will be different and probably a lot more depends on why a cat became diabetic in the first place, how soon treatment was initiated, and type of insulin and protocol used.

I've not seen "many cats in remission on dry food" anywhere on the Internet, but that doesn't mean they're not out there somewhere. I'm sure many, many humans will be ecstatic to hear controlling diet is not key in treating diabetes.

However, I do agree with every case being different. We see that all the time. We've also seen how insulin used, how quickly effective treatment was initialized, and in some cases, protocol used can affect the outcome with our diabetic kitties.

Balki was obese at diagnosis and certainly we were told that he likely had diabetes from the common cause. Our vet had in fact warned me for several years that he would get diabetes if I didn't take action.

My obligate carnivore has done well on high carb dry food, and with his other health conditions there is no way he would be here today if I had fed otherwise, no question about that at all.

I have to be honest, these two statements left me walking away scratching my head...

 

[Lydia--(Rosie & Basil) GA]

Here is how I, as a trained scientist, see it. The protocol used here on FDMB was developed with wet or raw food and that's how the historical data is interpretable and interpreted. Because that's what we all are depending upon here--controlled experience with a system of rules. And they are rules. They are not rules for the only safe way to feed a cat; they are not rules you must obey if you don't want to. They are rules for this system called TR.

To me, again as a scientist, I say if you are following a protocol that has shown good success, you follow it. Speculation about why things do what they do, anecdotes about what worked for a particular cat in an uncontrolled situation, guesses based on "common sense"--these have no place in a scientific setting. And again, that is what this is. I would guess that none of us are in a position to set up a controlled set of experiments using dry food on a statistically significant number of cats.

Is anyone free to do whatever they want? Sure. You just can't say you are following TR and further, I think it is not terribly responsible to advise others that you think it will work. I do not want to medically treat my cat based on speculation. I want to take the best data out there, interact with people who have deep experience interpreting it, and run with that.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but science is about more than ideas, thoughts or gut feelings. It is often said medicine is as much an art as a science, and anyone who feels that they need to be or should be doing something different is legitimately practicing the art part. But they are straying from TR, which is not a criminal offense! It just is what it is.

 

[Melanie and Smokey]

From the Roomp & Rand Study and the TR Sticky also says
" The suggested "guidelines" in the Tight Regulation Protocol are just that... guidelines. Not hard and fast rules.

The "guidelines" of Tight Regulation in the sticky are listed in the section below the Requisites in the sticky. Different.

 

[Doodles & Karen]

The "guidelines" of Tight Regulation in the sticky are listed in the section below the Requisites in the sticky. Different.

Is it more acceptable to put "modified TR" or "modified SLGS" my subject line? Currently I've changed it to "Modified TR" Unfortunately with Doodle's IBD one never knows what he'll eat from day to day.

 

[Louellen]

I don't know that I'd call it astute, lol.

I understand Jill's replies above, and also that "we" shouldn't just be randomly making changes to a published protocol. Yes, YAZC predates the study/protocol.
Perhaps the authors see no need to examine whether zero/low carb dry food could be used with TR. Maybe it has never even occurred to them?
But until they choose to do so, and ammend the protocol accordingly (or not), making changes to it isn't "our" place, KWIM?

One big factor is "how long do the carbs from any dry food take to clear a cat's system" vs wet food? Nobody knows for certain, but most agree that dry food takes longer than wet food to both digest and to "clear". One thing for sure, there are times in a cycle that you don't want the bottom to drop out when you least expect it. If feeding dry food can cause that to happen, then everyone above that has mentioned " safety" is right on the money.

ETA - in the interest of full disclosure, I have never used Lantus or Lev, nor did I follow TR or SLGS, with Bob. And the day before he was diagnosed with diabetes was the last day he ate dry food.

Here's where I have great question and debate (within myself) with the entire debate about exactly what you're saying, Carl (about dry foods being digested and utilized differently).

For instance, I have a cat who has colitis every time I give her canned food...no matter what the brand/make...that is...*IF* she will eat it! LOL So, after months of trying, regressing, rounds of Flagyl (metrodinazole) and probiotics, my vet and I finally threw our hands up in the air and said, "kibble...as low as possible in carbs". Ok, great...BUT...I am Canadian so, NO Evo up here anymore (profit margins according to the manufacturer) and NO Young Again as I'd need to win a lottery to get it up here. That pretty much leaves me with a carb content in kibble, at its lowest, as a 12.5% DMA in Nature's Valley Instinct Raw Boost Chicken or, the m/d kibble which her colitis doesn't act up on but, runs a whopping 18% carb on DMA.

And, I totally agree that it takes FOREVER for them to digest these pieces, let alone, get it through their systems.

However, more recently, I discovered that I could crush the kibble into a powder, mix it with water and FortiFlora to a canned food consistency and she's eating it. That, to me, means that PART of the digestion is done. The kibble has been broken down from shape form and...has had at least half of the process done.

Now..that, to me, means that the cat will likely process the carb content easier and faster but...is it true? Four vets don't know.

Of course, I am going with the SLGS method because of the dry food but, I'm uncertain whether a ZERO carb content kibble would be considered the same idea as a canned food in terms of raising the BG level? Again...NO ONE is going to be able to answer that one for me or solve it so, I stick to the SLGS. Do I have it right and my cat is doing well? No. Not yet. I'm working on it though, with my vet and advice in here and working with compromises here and there, according to both sources.

It's still a total conundrum for sure. But, I totally agree that staying SAFE is uppermost in everyone's minds and perhaps, for a lot of people, TR is just far too ambitious a method/protocol or whatever it's supposed to be called.

 

[Louellen]

Is it more acceptable to put "modified TR" or "modified SLGS" my subject line? Currently I've changed it to "Modified TR" Unfortunately with Doodle's IBD one never knows what he'll eat from day to day.

That's my problem too. I stick to my vet's instructions and the SLGS.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to this thread. I appreciate each and everyone of your opinions and I am still searching ways to ensure my sugar cat can remain on a all wet food (and not drive me insane)….we are working as a team and he is a great team mate! If at some point we cannot make it work and I feel I need to supplement with YAZ (if he will even like it?) I will change my signature but for now we are not giving up on the guidelines of the protocol….1 day at a time. ….

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

Here's where I have great question and debate (within myself) with the entire debate about exactly what you're saying, Carl (about dry foods being digested and utilized differently).

For instance, I have a cat who has colitis every time I give her canned food...no matter what the brand/make...that is...*IF* she will eat it! LOL So, after months of trying, regressing, rounds of Flagyl (metrodinazole) and probiotics, my vet and I finally threw our hands up in the air and said, "kibble...as low as possible in carbs". Ok, great...BUT...I am Canadian so, NO Evo up here anymore (profit margins according to the manufacturer) and NO Young Again as I'd need to win a lottery to get it up here. That pretty much leaves me with a carb content in kibble, at its lowest, as a 12.5% DMA in Nature's Valley Instinct Raw Boost Chicken or, the m/d kibble which her colitis doesn't act up on but, runs a whopping 18% carb on DMA.

And, I totally agree that it takes FOREVER for them to digest these pieces, let alone, get it through their systems.

However, more recently, I discovered that I could crush the kibble into a powder, mix it with water and FortiFlora to a canned food consistency and she's eating it. That, to me, means that PART of the digestion is done. The kibble has been broken down from shape form and...has had at least half of the process done.

Now..that, to me, means that the cat will likely process the carb content easier and faster but...is it true? Four vets don't know.

Of course, I am going with the SLGS method because of the dry food but, I'm uncertain whether a ZERO carb content kibble would be considered the same idea as a canned food in terms of raising the BG level? Again...NO ONE is going to be able to answer that one for me or solve it so, I stick to the SLGS. Do I have it right and my cat is doing well? No. Not yet. I'm working on it though, with my vet and advice in here and working with compromises here and there, according to both sources.

It's still a total conundrum for sure. But, I totally agree that staying SAFE is uppermost in everyone's minds and perhaps, for a lot of people, TR is just far too ambitious a method/protocol or whatever it's supposed to be called.

That is very smart!! Good job
Maybe down the road if you started adding a little wet food to the mixture she would gradually develop a taste for it? good luck!!

 

[Louellen]

Congratulations! Given all his other health issues listed on your spreadsheet, you're extremely fortunate. Of course, some might ask if some of these health issues may have been lessened or possibly avoided if kitty had been fed a species appropriate diet. I know I always wondered if I could have avoided the diabetes diagnosis with Alex if I had only been better informed.

No surprises there. If the high carb food isn't eliminated, there's no chance of it "wearing off" at inopportune times... which negates the mention of it in the context of this thread.

Ah, this makes all the difference in the world! I strongly suggest those who want to follow the TR protocol used on the FDMB while feeding dry food follow suit. Enlist the help of a world-renowned researcher in the field of feline diabetes such as Jacquie Rand.

There's a huge difference between one-on-one help received in real time from a licensed vet who is well known and well versed in the treatment of feline diabetes and seeking help on the Internet from lay persons who are simply helping others... volunteers who are given a set of requisites and guidelines such as in the published protocol used here. Because we are not vets... because we are not there with you and your cat... all we can responsibly do is work with what we're given... from the experts. There's a difference!

I think it would be horribly irresponsible for me or any other lay person on this forum to change or brush aside any of the requisites given in a protocol.

I know I'm not prepared to do this:

REQUISITES WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

• Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
  Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
  More monitoring may be needed.

• It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.

• Learn the signs of and how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA and prepare a HYPO TOOLBOX.

• Test regularly for ketones and know about DIABETIC KETOACIDOSIS (DKA).

• Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.

• Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet. <---------- 01/07/2016: JC & Balki says "you can feed your cat whatever you want and follow tight regulation."

• Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.

Personally, I prefer to make suggestions and base recommendations with a little more behind them than a single person's say so... especially when that person is not a vet, is not associated with the document, nor is a known researcher in the field, but that's just me.


I've not seen "many cats in remission on dry food" anywhere on the Internet, but that doesn't mean they're not out there somewhere. I'm sure many, many humans will be ecstatic to hear controlling diet is not key in treating diabetes.

However, I do agree with every case being different. We see that all the time. We've also seen how insulin used, how quickly effective treatment was initialized, and in some cases, protocol used can affect the outcome with our diabetic kitties.



I have to be honest, these two statements left me walking away scratching my head...

Personally, I don't think that anyone can attribute going into remission or not going into remission, solely on the idea of canned foods. I think that there are many cats who will go into remission because they were never truly diabetic in the first place or it was caused by a health issue of some sort or medication and was temporary. That can be seen by the sheer numbers of cats who have "come out of remission" lately and posted, in spite of remaining on the same foods. I've also seen many cats who had health issues even on canned, sanctioned foods. I think ECID and that needs to be kept in mind because many people will come in here, thinking that if they follow either the TR or SLGS, they will achieve "remission". That's not entirely true, as we all know nor, is it fair to say that eating Fancy Feast and 9 Lives is "healthiest". It leaves new members with a sense of a feeling of guilt because they are doing everything suggested by these protocols and their cats are not in remission or have health issues anyway.

I do see that the lower the carb, the better those numbers are going to get and do so on the lowest dosage of whatever insulin they are using...at least, for the most part. There ARE cats, who no matter what they eat, will still require dosage adjustments and never get off of insulin, like humans.

But, I think that no matter what we feed our cats, there's genetics at play here too and whatever health issues are geared into genetic make-ups, are going to happen no matter what we feed our cats in those instances. So, my point is, to berate someone for their cat's diet and health issues (other than diabetes)...may be producing a much un-needed guilt trip on someone. That's my real point here. None of us are gods in here nor, are our vets. We're all working towards "the best we can do". That's the bottom line.

 

[Louellen]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to this thread. I appreciate each and everyone of your opinions and I am still searching ways to ensure my sugar cat can remain on a all wet food (and not drive me insane)….we are working as a team and he is a great team mate! If at some point we cannot make it work and I feel I need to supplement with YAZ (if he will even like it?) I will change my signature but for now we are not giving up on the guidelines of the protocol….1 day at a time. ….

Jayla...do whatever you feel is right for YOUR cat. Work with your vet as well and take from here what you and your vet feel is best. It's all just information. Some people live it all and some take what they can and do what suits their cat's health, their lifestyles and their vet's opinions. Best of wishes! We are all struggling with this demon diabetes in our cats and all just doing the best we can. Use your own best judgement in co-ordination with your vet's.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

Is anyone free to do whatever they want? Sure. You just can't say you are following TR and further, I think it is not terribly responsible to advise others that you think it will work. I do not want to medically treat my cat based on speculation. I want to take the best data out there, interact with people who have deep experience interpreting it, and run with that.

Excellent points... every one of them.

Is it more acceptable to put "modified TR" or "modified SLGS" my subject line? Currently I've changed it to "Modified TR" Unfortunately with Doodle's IBD one never knows what he'll eat from day to day.

Good question. I don't know. After a quick look at your ss, it appears Young Again Zero Carb is available close to everyday or everyday? FWIW, I've heard they've now dropped the word "carb" from the title since others have discovered the food is not 0% carbs. It's more like 5% carbs.

Since you're not really following SLGS or TR maybe simply indicate "YAZ dry food available daily". I dunno what's best. The only reason we look for something in the signature is the info can certainly affect advice or suggestions offered especially when it means keeping a kitty safe in a low numbers thread. Maybe others will offer better suggestions/some ideas.

Personally, I don't think that anyone can attribute going into remission or not going into remission, solely on the idea of canned foods. I think that there are many cats who will go into remission because they were never truly diabetic in the first place or it was caused by a health issue of some sort or medication and was temporary. That can be seen by the sheer numbers of cats who have "come out of remission" lately and posted, in spite of remaining on the same foods.

Absolutely true. There are also some cats who have received an early diabetes diagnosis who after a very short stint on insulin and/or a diet change go into remission pretty quick (some in days)... one might even go as far as saying... no matter what the caregiver does. OTOH, there are some cats who will never go into remission. I don't think that fact has been withheld anywhere on the board.

The ultimate goal is to have a happy and healthy cat. Remission is a bonus with no guarantee that it'll last even if it's achieved. Most cats come out of remission because of health issues... many of the same health issues that affect senior kitties... whether they're diabetic or not. Although, we do have to acknowledge we've also seen some come back from the Falls after getting into high carb dry food. It happens.

But, I think that no matter what we feed our cats, there's genetics at play here too and whatever health issues are geared into genetic make-ups, are going to happen no matter what we feed our cats in those instances.

Yes, I'm sure genetics come into play... to what degree? I don't know. One thing I've always wondered with my own cats is what would have happened if I had been better informed about feeding a species appropriate diet. For years I was sucked into all the dry food hype seen on TV and print adds. Did I unknowingly tip the scale towards cats I've had developing diabetes or even renal disease? Hmm, one of my males blocked from calcium oxalate crystals while on a dry diet. Knowing what I know now sure makes me wonder...

We're all working towards "the best we can do".

None of us would be here if we weren't.

 

[Doodles & Karen]

"YAZ dry food available daily

He went 9 days without the few tbsps. of YA, his appy went down hill with digestive & bowl upset. So we try and every feeding is a surprise but definitely need to make sure he gets food. I understand the 'advise" would vary so my SS is pretty clear as to what's going on.

 

[Louellen]

@Jill & Alex (GA)

Regarding the foods and knowing whether they caused our pets harm etc.. I don't know that anyone can tell us this much or even how it comes into play in each cat's health. I remember the days when we only had a few brands available for both cats and dogs. Heck, a lot of our dogs only had "Gravy Train" or "Dr. Ballards" (good heavens that was gross! LOL). I remember mixing a HUGE can of Dr. Ballards in with table scraps for our black labs. It looked and smelled disgusting but, it was all that we had at the time and the best that we could afford (mind you...they got some pretty great stews, roast beef and cooked veggies mixed in with that stuff! )

As for cats...I don't remember what brands we had but, I do remember a couple of cats that we had while growing up (going back AHEM *clears throat at the number in shock*...over 50 years ago now) and it was crap food by today's comparisons. All of our pets only got a once a year vet visit for rabies shots.

But, you know what I can say? I can say that those dogs and cats, lived as long or LONGER than our pets today who are vaccinated to the hilt, vet checked, blood tested silly and fed diets that we research the crap out of. LOL Heck...I've had cats in the past 20 year on everything from FF to prescription formula foods and one wasn't any better than the other in terms of "saving" them from health issues, it seems.

Our previous vet (now retired from practise) still keeps in touch and had a special interest in pet foods and nutrition as his focus. His take on things was that over his many years of veterinarian medicine in practise as well as his research over many decades...most of the controversy is "marketing hype" where companies will duke it out over who has the better formula. It's not necessarily that the foods are "better" as much as it is that it's a competition over who has the best marketing campaign. What helps one situation, will possibly create another. He also took into account many variables such as phosphorous, calcium, taurine, fat, protein, carb, calories, composition and had a "hate list" for...yes, Wellness and some of the other well known brands...both wet and dry for differing reasons. He also still isn't a huge pusher for Hills or Purina or Royal Canin. There just isn't a "perfect food" out there and a lot of it is marketing ploys.

I've had huge dogs who lived on pretty much table scraps in the early years of my life and lived to be 14 and 15 years old, lived outside in a homemade "dog house", insulated and heated with light bulbs. I've had cats who were fed whatever was on sale at the grocery store while growing up and were nothing more than scraps from human food production that weren't fit to be eaten by humans and heaven knows what else was in it as well as table scraps that they'd get into and chow down on...including pasta, bread, chips, donuts...you name the junk and they ate it. They lived to be 20 and 22 years of age! Meanwhile, I've had dogs and cats who have been indoor only, pampered pets, fed only what was considered the highest quality of foods, vet checks, vaccines and the entire gamut, live only half or less of their expected life spans. And, that was with medical intervention to the tune of thousands of dollars that we had to take loans out to pay.

So, cutting myself off because I tend to ramble, I don't think that there's any one type of food that we can say is "perfect" or won't cause any form of health issue. Honestly, I think our pets have become more pampered than we should be doing. They seemed to do better (not joking) when there was less fuss, worry, fretting and hype over foods, vaccines, treatments etc.. Everybody in the industry and every facet of it, including vets, are out to make a buck, it seems. I think we just do what we can and not try too hard because in the long run....trying too hard can make things worse in some cases.

 

[jayla-n-Drevon]

I have so appreciated the input that everyone has… it is my view (for what it is worth) FD is a man made disease-

When cats and dogs ate whole living raw food they got all they needed to thrive. I highly doubt any feral cat has FD. In my belief it is "people" manufacturers etc… either by greed ignorance or default that have made food that entices them and makes it easy but at what cost?

"Table scraps " and barn dogs etc… probably live a much healthier life getting REAL food-as opposed to commercial fillers. I take full responsibility for Drevon getting FD. He probably had some genetic intervention but I KNEW better than to feed dry-I fed wet as well but he is heavy and I knew the dry was not in his best interest for may reasons, and having another with kidney issues I know he too should not eat dry. I too have had cats that ate meow mix for 18 years and passed at 20 (ate baby food the last 2 years) I think we all have a story we can point to. There are exceptions to every rule of thumb.

The bottom line is that people here have a cat with FD and we want help and we want to be safe. The way I understand what has been said is that you can feed whatever you want BUT if you are doing a protocol it is important for the advice giver to know what you are feeding because they truly care about this disease and would never want to do harm by giving advice with the assumption that you are on a wet food only diet.
We are so fortunate to have these knowledgable care givers of which many have even lost their beloved kittys yet still offer help. This forum has been a true gift to myself and my baby. My DVM is also very interested in what we are doing, this is how we educate vets and begin to make a change in veternary medicine.
This thread has taken a huge turn--I do think of the dry food available YA is probably among the best and if we have no options in the future we may have to consider it and if that is the case we will take a different strategy than TR. No right or wrong just different.

 

[Jill & Alex (GA)]

This thread has taken a huge turn--

Yes, it most certainly has.

I *guess* it's my fault (apologies to Jayla) since my remarks included "I've wondered..." and "I've always wondered...",
but because of the risk of veering even further off-topic all I'll say is I've found the resulting backlash "interesting"... on so many levels.