12/23 Pimp AMPS 222; +2 218; +6 144; PMPS 274; +2 417

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Andy & Pimp

Andy & Pimp

Member Since 2015
yesterday

Looking for opinions on what type of infection Pimp may have. All questions welcome! I can't really afford much diagnostic testing and would like to know if this ab will be effective.
Lab results here


Extra vines today for Suzi and family, and Sienne, and everyone else that needs them. Seems it has been a rough week around here, again.




RIP Gabby:rb_icon:
 
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I haven't seen the whole CBC yet but the vet just called and said his WBC is high.
I have no problem pilling him and Clavamax is about half the price of Convenia so we'll go that route.
What to do with the juice?
Could he possibly go OTJ when this infection clears?
 
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Unless it's a skin infection, I would NOT do Convenia. I use Convenia as a last resort for semi-social cats that I am unable to pill, but it wouldn't be my first choice for anyone else or for anything other than a skin infection. I am also leery of Convenia due to the potential for side effects. With a pill, you can stop at any point if there's a problem, but there's nothing you can do once they get the Convenia injection.

The only thing with Clavamox is that vets oftentimes give you the flavored liquid rather than a pill and that of course has sugar in it. So I would double check on that. And start him on Forti Flora since Clavamox tends to cause an upset stomach in many cats.

Do you know what the underlying issue might be? If it's a dental problem, Clindamycin might be the way to go. And you can get that as a capsule.
 
Personally, I'd stay away from Covenia unless absolutely necessary. "No covenia and no metacam without discussion" are written in red on my cat's charts. Dr. Lisa Pierson discusses convenia here: Convenia: Worth the Risk?.

An excerpt from her article:
"Convenia (manufactured by Zoetis) is an injectable long-acting antibiotic that is labeled for the treatment of skin infections in cats and dogs. It exerts its antibacterial effects for approximately 1-2 weeks but stays in the body for over 2 months."

Long story short, if kitty has an adverse reaction, you could be dealing with the problem for approximately 65 days!
Read the article, weigh the risks, and come to your own conclusions.
http://catinfo.org/?link=convenia
 
Thank you both!
I remembered reading something about convenia and looked it up right after I posted...and then called the vet and told them to get the clavamax ready.
His poo smells pretty bad, is that an indicator of anything? He eats great. Sometimes he sits meatloaf with his back arched up, but not for long. It's not the "sick" meatloaf like he was doing before we started insulin.
 
Did they tell you what the infection is? Wouldn't do any AB without knowing (mind you I hate pharma drugs). WBC elevation could be a number of things...vines for a happy healthy Pimp. I agree about the blue jeans buddy so givem a try today.
 
@Doodles & Sour Pea No I didn't get to talk to the vet directly, he left a message saying WBC were high and he needed antibiotics. I called back and talked to one of the techs, spoke with the same one when I picked up the meds 20 minutes ago.
She said "Who knows, could be anything"

His poo smells pretty bad, is that an indicator of anything? He eats great. Sometimes he sits meatloaf with his back arched up, but not for long. It's not the "sick" meatloaf like he was doing before we started insulin.

An infection makes sense in his BG's.

Here's the BW results, would love it if everyone would take a look. Most of this is still greek to me.

img002.jpg

Here is PDF because the image scan came out so fuzzy. (attached)
 

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Doodles poop was super smelly on the YAZC and honestly has not been since we stopped it. I might be checking for IBD (inflammatory bowl disease) but certainly hope that is not the case. He has a "high" BUN which could indicate Kidney infection. Some others who are more experienced may have better insight.
 
Put up a "?" in the prefix regarding the BW. I'd have a real problem giving an AB without knowing what the infection is. There are different AB's for different viruses. Just thinking about Pimp and hey looking good in those blue jeans bud.
 
He obviously has some sort of infection though, with high WBC and neutrophils? Unfortunately I can't really afford a lot of diagnostic testing now.

Doodles & Sour Pea said:
There are different AB's for different viruses
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I think antibiotics are for bacterial infections.

ETA: Quick research shows Pfizer specifies Clavamox to be effective for skin, dental, soft tissue, and urinary infections in pets. Seems pretty broad spectrum.
 
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From http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis_blood_chemistry.htm#bun
-If BUN or urea levels are high yet creatinine is normal or only a little elevated, it usually means that the cat is dehydrated, has gastro-intestinal bleeding, or is eating a high protein diet.

Well he isn't pooping blood and he's not dehydrated, but he is eating a high-protein diet.

From https://www.petcarerx.com/article/what-is-a-high-white-blood-cell-count-in-cats/1604
-White blood cells, also known as leukocytes, defend the body against viruses, bacteria, and fungi. Your cat’s blood contains a militia of white blood cells known as the differential, which take the form of neutrophils, eosinophils, basophils, lymphocytes, and monocytes.
  • Neutrophils and eosinophils, which are produced in the cat’s bone marrow, are released into the bloodstream to destroy bacteria.
So that means bacterial infection for sure...


(I'm going to keep editing this post with research links (if I find any more))
 
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I wouldn't worry about the higher BUN alone - many diabetic cats are dehydrated. That one isn't a surprise in a diabetic cat.

As far as what could be causing an infection, it's impossible for any of us to guess. White blood cells = infection, but it could be anything, including a virus. Antibiotics are anti-bacterial, not anti-virals. So it only works if it's a bacterial infection.

There are some common infections that diabetic cats seem prone to that you could explore first. One is dental infections, ie, gingivitis, which can also increase blood sugar. Pancreatitis is another common problem - I'm uncertain if there is ever bacteria involved in that. The Primer on Pancreatitis is on the New to the Group sticky, near the bottom in the single topic posts.

My vet has said that high eosinophils can indicate allergies. If his poop is smelly, he could be having something going on in his gut. You might try a new food, eliminating common allergens. There is a lot of just plain good sense on www.catnutrition.org. The woman who runs that site knows Dr. Lisa of www.catinfo.org which is an excellent source of information on pretty much everything cat-related. I would try switching foods to something that it species-appropriate, ie, not extras that cats wouldn't ordinarily be eating.

It probably wouldn't hurt him to have the Clavamox, but there's no way to know if it's an appropriate antibiotic without knowing what the infection source is.

With any antibiotic, it's a good idea to give a probiotic like Fortiflora to prevent diarrhea.

Good luck figuring things out.
 
I guess the research I've done this afternoon and what the vet recommended are both that he has a bacterial infection of some sort. When the vet called he said it was imperative to get him on antibiotics asap. I assume the high neutrophils and eosinophils are how bacterial infection is deduced, as those are the two types of white blood cells that are sent out to fight bacteria. Yes eosinophils are an allergic or immune response as well, but neutrophils are not, as far as I can tell.

I'm going to have to let the vettybean take the reigns on this one.

I picked up fortiflora when I picked up the clavamox - Pimp goes crazy for it!
 
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I'm purty good with labs and I would focus on the WBCs. The BUN can be high due to high protein diet or dehydration and I would think it's likely the former if he's eating a high protein diet. If he's dehydrated, you'll often see higher RBCs as well. Not always but often.

Clavamox is a good, broad spectrum a/b. I would get a good probiotic to give him like Renew Life Ultimate Flora (1/4 cap bid). Forti flora is not a probiotic.

I'd keep an eye on ketones and make sure he's eating/drinking.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I'm purty good with labs and I would focus on the WBCs. The BUN can be high due to high protein diet or dehydration and I would think it's likely the former if he's eating a high protein diet. If he's dehydrated, you'll often see higher RBCs as well. Not always but often.

Clavamox is a good, broad spectrum a/b. I would get a good probiotic to give him like Renew Life Ultimate Flora (1/4 cap bid). Forti flora is not a probiotic.

I'd keep an eye on ketones and make sure he's eating/drinking.
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Ketone monitoring, check. He has had a good appy so far but will make sure to keep an eye on it. I have remeron I can give him as last resort.

You agree then that clavamox is a good choice for this blood workup? It sure points toward bacterial infection from what I can tell. It doesn't matter to me where the infection is as long as there's a good chance this will knock it out.

I've read that infection can cause high BG's but I didn't expect it to rise when we started AB's. ECID I guess.

Had no idea fortiflora was a poser. $40 down the drain.:banghead:
edit: is it really not? It claims to be "nutritional supplement that contains probiotic"

As always, thank you, Marje.:bighug:
 
One dose doesn't tell much, but higher BGs after taking an antibiotic could make one wonder if there is any source of sugar in the antibiotic. Do you have a liquid AB for him? Often those have a sugar added to the liquid. Pills are less likely to contain sugar.

He could also be bouncing. You'll know more as time goes on. I wouldn't worry too much about a single higher test.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
One dose doesn't tell much, but higher BGs after taking an antibiotic could make one wonder if there is any source of sugar in the antibiotic. Do you have a liquid AB for him? Often those have a sugar added to the liquid. Pills are less likely to contain sugar.

He could also be bouncing. You'll know more as time goes on. I wouldn't worry too much about a single higher test.
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No, pills. Just curious about what's going on with him as usual. It's definitely an upward trend tonight, didn't know if antibiotics starting to fight off bacteria would cause that.
Don't know what he would be bouncing from, he hasn't been in normal numbers in 4 days (although I suppose he could have gone for a night time swim that I missed).
 
Andy & Pimp said:
You agree then that clavamox is a good choice for this blood workup?

I've read that infection can cause high BG's but I didn't expect it to rise when we started AB's. ECID I guess.

Had no idea fortiflora was a poser. $40 down the drain.:banghead:
edit: is it really not? It claims to be "nutritional supplement that contains probiotic"

As always, thank you, Marje.:bighug:
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Well I'm not a vet so it would be unwise of me to say that clavamox is a good choice for his blood work. I was just saying clavamox is a good broad spectrum antibiotic and likely is why your vet chose it. If he knew where the infection was, he might have selected something more specific. It takes a while for a/bs to kick in so you have to give it time to resolve the infection and then for then BG to come down.

I'm sorry but fortiflora is not a probiotic (sorry @julie & punkin (ga)). Purina doesn't say it is a probiotic...it says it is a nutritional supplement with a probiotic but I would make the case that it isn't a quality probiotic and it has only a small amount in it.

The best probiotics for cats are actually human grade. Here is a very good discussion on probiotics for cats and notice that even on the animal grade probiotics, fortiflora is not listed. If you compare the ingredients of fortiflora to, say, Renew Life, you'll see what I mean. I, personally, have never and would never use fortiflora (as there are so many better products out there) although some cats like it as a food enhancer.

You're welcome!
 
I am just now seeing this. I remember @BJM saying smelling poop, loose and pale is indicative of pancreatitis. Can you rub Pimp's belly without him objecting?
 
Marje and Gracie said:
I'm sorry but fortiflora is not a probiotic (sorry @julie & punkin (ga)). Purina doesn't say it is a probiotic...it says it is a nutritional supplement with a probiotic but I would make the case that it isn't a quality probiotic and it has only a small amount in it.
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Did a bit of research as well and though it does have (some) probiotic it's not very much and not very good.
I came to the conclusion that a real, good probiotic would have multiple species of microbes and (I think) should need refrigeration, which FortiFlora does not.
I'll be reading that link and picking out something better for "gut repopulation", but will probably continue to give the FF just to see if it improves anything else. It's got so many snake-oil claims I may as well try it out, now that I bought it.

Marje and Gracie said:
I was just saying clavamox is a good broad spectrum antibiotic and likely is why your vet chose it. If he knew where the infection was, he might have selected something more specific.
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I got the feeling that it is more important to get rid of the infection, than knowing where it is. To have less risk of DKA? I'm ok with that. I assume the vet could tell from the bloodwork that it was bacterial, as I deduced the same thing after some research.
Karen put my brain into overdrive yesterday o_O:confused::oops: Made me want something backing up the vet's decision for AB's. @Doodles & Sour Pea No worries! Need a good mental workout now and then;)
 
Andy & Pimp said:
Did a bit of research as well and though it does have (some) probiotic it's not very much and not very good.
I came to the conclusion that a real, good probiotic would have multiple species of microbes and (I think) should need refrigeration, which FortiFlora does not.
I'll be reading that link and picking out something better for "gut repopulation", but will probably continue to give the FF just to see if it improves anything else. It's got so many snake-oil claims I may as well try it out, now that I bought it.


I got the feeling that it is more important to get rid of the infection, than knowing where it is. To have less risk of DKA? I'm ok with that. I assume the vet could tell from the bloodwork that it was bacterial, as I deduced the same thing after some research.
Karen put my brain into overdrive yesterday o_O:confused::oops: Made me want something backing up the vet's decision for AB's. @Doodles & Sour Pea No worries! Need a good mental workout now and then;)
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Also remember that an a/b will do nothing for a virus....it only addresses bacterial infections. You have to leave it to the vet to determine what the issue might be and you can ask about different a/bs or make it clear that you don't want one (e.g. Convenia) or know which ones make Pimp sick but ultimately, the vet needs to do his job to figure out what might be going on.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
I am just now seeing this. I remember @BJM saying smelling poop, loose and pale is indicative of pancreatitis....
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Er, not quite. Malodorous feces, 'fluffy" or voluminous, and pasty colored may be a sign of exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, which may be brought on by chronic pancreatitis attacking the enzyme producing cells. When you see those, you want to discuss testing for both conditions (pancreatitis, and enzyme issues), as well as other maldigestion issues like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), giardia, coccidia, parasites, etc.
 
BJM said:
Er, not quite. Malodorous feces, 'fluffy" or voluminous, and pasty colored may be a sign of exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, which may be brought on by chronic pancreatitis attacking the enzyme producing cells. When you see those, you want to discuss testing for both conditions (pancreatitis, and enzyme issues), as well as other maldigestion issues like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), giardia, coccidia, parasites, etc.
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Thanks for weighing in BJM, that is why I tagged you in case I was misquoting. ;)
 
If you're so inclined, The Merk Veterinary Manual is online. (See my signature link Notes to share). There's lots of good info in there, though you may need a medical dictionary. I find it helpful in preparing for a vet visit, as being well informed about feline health may help the vet to trust what you're doing with the diabetes, or any other chronic or acute conditions.
 
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