11/10 Mocha-AMPS 324 +2.0=246; +9.5=143; PMPS225;+1=452; +2=228; +3 290

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julie & punkin (ga) said:
There are times when you get a "furshot" - meaning that something happens and the insulin doesn't all get in. Maybe some does, or the needle goes all the way through the skin tent and shoots out onto the cat. Or maybe the cat moves while you're shooting and the syringe pulls out and some doesn't go in.

Here on FDMB we don't ever recommend that people re-shoot if some is missed. I feel the same way about giving partial shots. Even though you know that 2u got in, still measuring 2 u is tricky enough that you wouldn't want to give slightly more in each shot and have it really end up being 4.5u or something. We have done experiments on syringes and we know the markings tend not to be very accurate. For a human with a larger dose (or my cat, who got up to 15.5u) slight differences in dose might not matter. But for a small cat, 0.5u can be a huge difference. Even 0.25u can be a lot.

So, I would just go with the initial shot you gave - it will give you good information on how she does with a reduced dose and next time you have a preshot that's lower, you can look at this example and see how well that worked/didn't work.

I see your last post so I'm going to post this, but I'm a person who has to explain everything, so I want to write some more to you as well. back in a moment.
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Very helpful and I realized about the not shooing for fur shot but for some reason I did not make the same connection. Your explanation makes sense and will have to put in the memory drive.
 
I think what you're probably seeing tonight is 1. a bounce from the blues she got today 2. a food spike and 3. effects of the reduced dose (although it's really early in the cycle so it's too early to say for sure what the reduced dose is going to do)....Mostly #1

Anytime you're going to be home and have the supplies you need, it's usually going to be best to shoot the "scheduled" dose.

We want our kitties to earn their reductions....when they do, we reduce the dose and then hope they can continue to get good numbers and then earn another one. The whole idea is to slowly reduce the dose (and still get good numbers) until they're able to stay in normal numbers with nothing...that's OTJ!
 
Suzi_S said:
@julie & punkin (ga) I like that you write all this out. It helps me to understand so that someday I can help someone.
Click to expand...

I tutor in special ed, and also kids that just need extra help, in an elementary school, so explaining is what I do allllllll dayyyyyy long. :D then i come here and do more of it. ;)

ok, more about shooting lower numbers.

This is a particular passion of mine, although I didn't really "get" it until punkin had been treated for his acromegaly and his dose was dropping unpredictably, so I didn't personally shoot low. However, in the past several years since he's passed away, I've seen over and over that the way to get control of blood sugar is to shoot the full dose into normal numbers.

Now I don't think you were ready to do that yet today! You don't have enough information (data) on Mocha just yet. But the way to GET to that point is to get a variety of tests in.

Lantus and Levemir are really good at holding blood sugar flat. But they are not so good at bringing down high numbers. So you get those crazy drops when you shoot a high number - maybe 300 points or more even, after you've shot a really high number. Then inevitably, the numbers shoot right back up before long. Now you've got another super high number to shoot. Eventually, as you get to a good dose, you'll end up with a lower number at preshot. Might only be 175. Shooting that number, with the full dose, can lower your whole range of blood sugar. Now obviously, you can't do that when you're going to leave. But if you're home, your kitty is not sick and eating normally, you have plenty of strips and high carb food - then GRAB the opportunity as a chance to flatten out your cat's blood sugar.

The first time, just shoot something like a 150 or above. The next time you have the chance, try lowering the number to something like 120. Then try a 90. Even for those following SLGS, you can learn to shoot lower - it is in the sticky. Since you're following SLGS, that (90) would be your lower no-shoot number.

The important thing is to work up to it so you have DATA that shows what YOUR cat will do as you shoot lower.

It also helps to look at spreadsheets of people who have done this. You're looking for green amps - then looking across the row to see the results. Then notice as the person continues shooting green preshots, how the spreadsheet often will turn all green, or all green/blue. Here are a few - these were both following Tight Reg, but the principle is the same:

Davidson - start at February when Shawna began to shoot green preshots
Vyktor - start at Feb 12, 2012 (Australian style dating on the ss 12/2/2012) when Serryn shot a 110. His really significant changes started about a month later in March when his ss went all green.

Both of these kitties went OTJ. Not every cat does, but looking at their spreadsheets can help you see what is likely to happen when you do work up to shooting low.

Furball - look beginning July 9, 2015 - Carla has been following SLGS with her. She's on an OTJ trial right now!

Here's a post that Libby wrote about a variety of topics - shooting a dropping number is on post 6.

You also want to read the SLGS sticky on handing low preshots - there is an initial section for those new to this, then there is a second section for once you have a little more experience. Usually the first time people will suggest that you stall to let the blood sugar rise and then shoot. Some people get stuck on stalling as a strategy and keep doing it over and over. Or they always reduce the dose when they have a lower preshot. These are good strategies to use initially to see what your cat will do, but there are other options in that sticky that can also be tried, with the goal to getting comfortable shooting lower numbers.

I like to give the example of golfing & mini-golf. Both involve clubs, a course and a ball, but other than that they have little in common. Shooting low and shooting a high number are much the same way. The results you get are not very similar when you shoot high versus shooting lower. Shooting low is like mini-golf. the ball doesn't move much and it stays flat. Shooting high numbers, like playing regular golf, actually has the potential for huge drops and then huge bounces from it - it goes far, it's harder to know where it's going to land, too. I think shooting higher numbers is actually riskier than shooting low.

The caution with all of this is to know your cat, work up to this, read lots, don't do it when you can't monitor, and ask for help if you want someone experienced to see if it's a good time to try it. Experienced members following Tight Reg will shoot most everything over 50 if everything is normal with their cat. Experienced members following SLGS will shoot most everything over 90. We encourage new members to ask for guidance for anything under 150 - but the sooner you get enough data that you can shoot lower numbers, the greater the possibility of remission for your cat. Shooting lower numbers (50-120) is the path to going off of insulin - honestly, i haven't seen it happen any other way. If it does, it's unusual and it would only be in a very newly diagnosed cat.

You also don't have to do this! There's nothing that says you need to - I'm just explaining how it can work in cats so you know you have this option, IF you want to try it. You always hold the syringe and the choice is always yours.

i do want to encourage you without pressuring you - there's no way to understand the intricacies of this Sugar Dance if people don't explain it. Others certainly explained it to me until I got it, too. When you understand how things work, it's easier to step forward into unknown territory.

I hope some of this helps - if you have questions, ask away.
 
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Chris & China said:
I think what you're probably seeing tonight is 1. a bounce from the blues she got today 2. a food spike and 3. effects of the reduced dose (although it's really early in the cycle so it's too early to say for sure what the reduced dose is going to do)....Mostly #1

Anytime you're going to be home and have the supplies you need, it's usually going to be best to shoot the "scheduled" dose.

We want our kitties to earn their reductions....when they do, we reduce the dose and then hope they can continue to get good numbers and then earn another one. The whole idea is to slowly reduce the dose (and still get good numbers) until they're able to stay in normal numbers with nothing...that's OTJ!
Click to expand...

I understand this now. But, at the time I didn't have enough information to help me know it would be fine. As a few said a 1/2 would be fine.....made sense. As a result of more time passing, more comments came that would have helped me feel ok to keep it in hindsight. I am on a "learning curve" while she is on her "curve." I do have all the necessary supplies on hand. Now that someone has said the drops are higher with a higher glucose than when lower numbers is comforting to know.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I tutor in special ed, and also kids that just need extra help, in an elementary school, so explaining is what I do allllllll dayyyyyy long. :D then i come here and do more of it. ;)
I hope some of this helps - if you have questions, ask away.
Click to expand...

You must be an incredible teacher! Thank you for the explanation. I was perhaps being too analytical of her huge drops when high and not having the information that it bottoms when lower. Seeing those SS makes a huge difference to not flip out. This really stuck out to me and thanks for the links to the info also. It makes me feel better that before I read this statement, I was thinking the same thing: "I think shooting higher numbers is actually riskier than shooting low."

"- but the sooner you get enough data that you can shoot lower numbers, the greater the possibility of remission for your cat. Shooting lower numbers (50-120) is the path to going off of insulin - honestly, i haven't seen it happen any other way. If it does, it's unusual and it would only be in a very newly diagnosed cat."

Very encouraging to stay the course. I now understand that the insulin drops harder with higher numbers and to "stick" with the "injection" as per guidelines. Sorry for the panic. I will get there with support.:smuggrin:
 
No apologies needed! Really - it is so counter-intuitive . . . and the reason I explain it is because I didn't really fully "get" it for quite a while. It doesn't really make sense, so I needed to actually see it in action, which is why I like to see examples, too. When punkin was newly diagnosed I looked at people's subject lines with the constant green numbers and I don't know - i just thought it didn't apply to him.

Go at your own pace - that is perfectly ok.

Another thing I've learned through all of this is that you'll have another chance to do it. Once you've had a lower preshot, it'll happen again. It's really nice to have time now to read and try to understand things. Then you'll feel a little more prepared when you have the next chance.
 
I remember my first low... 127, and I was nervous so I skipped. She went sky high that night and I promised myself the next time, if I knew I would be home, I would shoot her. And I did and realized it wasn't as scary as I thought it would be. I learned how she would react.

You will get there. And you are doing just fine.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
No apologies needed! Really - it is so counter-intuitive . . . and the reason I explain it is because I didn't really fully "get" it for quite a while. It doesn't really make sense, so I needed to actually see it in action, which is why I like to see examples, too. When punkin was newly diagnosed I looked at people's subject lines with the constant green numbers and I don't know - i just thought it didn't apply to him.

Go at your own pace - that is perfectly ok.

Another thing I've learned through all of this is that you'll have another chance to do it. Once you've had a lower preshot, it'll happen again. It's really nice to have time now to read and try to understand things. Then you'll feel a little more prepared when you have the next chance.
Click to expand...

And, now I get that she was not really low. So, you are so great to point out that when she is in good numbers to help keep her there. Slow and steady wins the race right? Have a good night. She is climbing a little so I am calling it a night y'all. You have all been so appreciated. Can't imagine what to do with a vet you can't reach and you deal with dosing when they are always closed. This is an amazing creation!
 
Suzi_S said:
I remember my first low... 127, and I was nervous so I skipped. She went sky high that night and I promised myself the next time, if I knew I would be home, I would shoot her. And I did and realized it wasn't as scary as I thought it would be. I learned how she would react.

You will get there. And you are doing just fine.
Click to expand...
I see that on 9/24. I would have done the same I am sure. Thanks for the encouragement.

I do see that huge spike and it took until 10/5 for you to get back to a similar preshot number.

Wonder why the spike on 10/8 away from blues and greens.

Curious for the reduction on 10/9 in the pm?

The spike on 10/22 from the pmps of 87 into the 300's must be a bounce?

What was Snicker like when had the 42 in the amps?
 
I believe the spike on 10/8 was caused by her super low. And she does not give me many signs. Only once did she refuse to eat and that one happened before I found this board, The vet clocked her at 36. The reduction was also from said super low but I didn't start it right away because...well..I forgot and then realized a few days late. The spike on 10/22 was probably from another super low that day as well, and again...no indication from her. She was fine, ate fine, acted fine. We are still in the same reduction from that day. Funny...she also has no signs when she is super high as well.
 
Bummed, got an H1 and finally found it this morning, means over 600. Oh boy.....that 1/2 dose was a mistake apparently but even a furshot does not drive her this high. Never been over 600. I will test her again and begin her reads for the day.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I tutor in special ed, and also kids that just need extra help, in an elementary school, so explaining is what I do allllllll dayyyyyy long. :D then i come here and do more of it. ;)

ok, more about shooting lower numbers.

This is a particular passion of mine, although I didn't really "get" it until punkin had been treated for his acromegaly and his dose was dropping unpredictably, so I didn't personally shoot low. However, in the past several years since he's passed away, I've seen over and over that the way to get control of blood sugar is to shoot the full dose into normal numbers.

Now I don't think you were ready to do that yet today! You don't have enough information (data) on Mocha just yet. But the way to GET to that point is to get a variety of tests in.

Lantus and Levemir are really good at holding blood sugar flat. But they are not so good at bringing down high numbers. So you get those crazy drops when you shoot a high number - maybe 300 points or more even, after you've shot a really high number. Then inevitably, the numbers shoot right back up before long. Now you've got another super high number to shoot. Eventually, as you get to a good dose, you'll end up with a lower number at preshot. Might only be 175. Shooting that number, with the full dose, can lower your whole range of blood sugar. Now obviously, you can't do that when you're going to leave. But if you're home, your kitty is not sick and eating normally, you have plenty of strips and high carb food - then GRAB the opportunity as a chance to flatten out your cat's blood sugar.

The first time, just shoot something like a 150 or above. The next time you have the chance, try lowering the number to something like 120. Then try a 90. Even for those following SLGS, you can learn to shoot lower - it is in the sticky. Since you're following SLGS, that would be your lower no-shoot number.

The important thing is to work up to it so you have DATA that shows what YOUR cat will do as you shoot lower.

It also helps to look at spreadsheets of people who have done this. You're looking for green amps - then looking across the row to see the results. Then notice as the person continues shooting green preshots, how the spreadsheet often will turn all green, or all green/blue. Here are a few - these were both following Tight Reg, but the principle is the same:

Davidson - start at February when Shawna began to shoot green preshots
Vyktor - start at Feb 12, 2012 (Australian style dating on the ss 12/2/2012) when Serryn shot a 110. His really significant changes started about a month later in March when his ss went all green.

Both of these kitties went OTJ. Not every cat does, but looking at their spreadsheets can help you see what is likely to happen when you do work up to shooting low.

Furball - look beginning July 9, 2015 - Carla has been following SLGS with her. She's on an OTJ trial right now!

Here's a post that Libby wrote about a variety of topics - shooting a dropping number is on post 6.

You also want to read the SLGS sticky on handing low preshots - there is an initial section for those new to this, then there is a second section for once you have a little more experience. Usually the first time people will suggest that you stall to let the blood sugar rise and then shoot. Some people get stuck on stalling as a strategy and keep doing it over and over. Or they always reduce the dose when they have a lower preshot. These are good strategies to use initially to see what your cat will do, but there are other options in that sticky that can also be tried, with the goal to getting comfortable shooting lower numbers.

I like to give the example of golfing & mini-golf. Both involve clubs, a course and a ball, but other than that they have little in common. Shooting low and shooting a high number are much the same way. The results you get are not very similar when you shoot high versus shooting lower. Shooting low is like mini-golf. the ball doesn't move much and it stays flat. Shooting high numbers, like playing regular golf, actually has the potential for huge drops and then huge bounces from it - it goes far, it's harder to know where it's going to land, too. I think shooting higher numbers is actually riskier than shooting low.

The caution with all of this is to know your cat, work up to this, read lots, don't do it when you can't monitor, and ask for help if you want someone experienced to see if it's a good time to try it. Experienced members following Tight Reg will shoot most everything over 50 if everything is normal with their cat. Experienced members following SLGS will shoot most everything over 90. We encourage new members to ask for guidance for anything under 150 - but the sooner you get enough data that you can shoot lower numbers, the greater the possibility of remission for your cat. Shooting lower numbers (50-120) is the path to going off of insulin - honestly, i haven't seen it happen any other way. If it does, it's unusual and it would only be in a very newly diagnosed cat.

You also don't have to do this! There's nothing that says you need to - I'm just explaining how it can work in cats so you know you have this option, IF you want to try it. You always hold the syringe and the choice is always yours.

i do want to encourage you without pressuring you - there's no way to understand the intricacies of this Sugar Dance if people don't explain it. Others certainly explained it to me until I got it, too. When you understand how things work, it's easier to step forward into unknown territory.

I hope some of this helps - if you have questions, ask away.
Click to expand...
this explanation is awesome!!! bookmark-worthy. when i first saw people shooting 70s (when i switched from prozinc to levemir), i couldnt believe it! for g, the first time i shot a 92, it was an allniter. he dropped like a bomb! but you have to do these tests so you know how YOUR kitty will respond. you got data last night that will help you down the road. It really IS about gathering the data. Congrats!
 
Grayson & Lu said:
this explanation is awesome!!! bookmark-worthy. when i first saw people shooting 70s (when i switched from prozinc to levemir), i couldnt believe it! for g, the first time i shot a 92, it was an allniter. he dropped like a bomb! but you have to do these tests so you know how YOUR kitty will respond. you got data last night that will help you down the road. It really IS about gathering the data. Congrats!
Click to expand...
I will not make the same mistake again, she is still paying for it.
 
Tara & Ivana said:
I know what you mean, we skipped a shot on Saturday night so we could go to a concert, and Ivana still hasn't recovered from it. Not much you can do except learn from it though, don't be too hard on yourself :bighug:
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I see that.....empathize with you.....Mocha has come down a lot today, 400 points from this am. Never want to see "Hi" again. If the am is pink, maybe we can see blue again soon. Thanks for the hug. Needed one after the late night and short sleep and then the shock of trying to figure out why it would not give me a read.
 
Go Mocha, you can do it! I have never seen HI on my meter, but I have seen LO which freaked the heck out of me. Ivana still hasn't decided what colour she likes and is trying them all on for size, sigh... I need more patience pants!
 
Tara & Ivana said:
Go Mocha, you can do it! I have never seen HI on my meter, but I have seen LO which freaked the heck out of me. Ivana still hasn't decided what colour she likes and is trying them all on for size, sigh... I need more patience pants!
Click to expand...
love that saying.....me too! "patience pants indeed." So what number results in a "LO?" just out of curiosity? Ivana definitely prefers green.....go Ivana go to the green!
 
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