Calling all brains to storm

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Bobbie And Bubba

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I could really use some experienced eyes and brains to help me with Bubba's dose. While I realize he just had surgery 9 days ago, (10/28) the dust has settled and he seems stuck in the yellows.( he started the yellow trend two days before surgery) While I am glad that the bouncing has stopped, I would like to see him get into the blues and safe greens. The last time he went into the greens was on 10/16 and it was on a smaller dose than he is presently on now. We had discussed a 11/13 schedule with him because his PMPS were lower and then he switched for a few days with his AMPS being lower. Not sure that the 11/13 will help with the way he switches up his MO. Any advice as to how to proceed would be very appreciated.
 
If you can monitor, I think I'd raise the dose back up to 2.6 My thinking is that he is in safe numbers Last night's pmps was lower but shootable. Maybe one way to get a little more aggressive is, once you get a lower number like that for pmps, test again to be sure it is rising and then shoot the regular amount as long as he is above your target and rising. I am cautious so I'd probably start with a target of 180 until you shoot that few times and get safe results. Then you might lower it. (But I would not shoot a "normal" number under 120 until he is more predictable.)

Another possibility is to do the 13/11 when it happens. So shoot the pmps of 199 when it has risen at +12.5 or 13 and shoot the amps at +11 or 11.5 (depending on whether you want to do 13/12 or 12.5/11.5) That screws up your feeding schedule potentially being different every day, but you could just lock your self in the bathroom and take a long shower.......

What are you thinking?
 
Sounds like a plan. Bubba does like to play with the numbers!

One thing I will say. I was scrolling through your SS to get to current numbers and just noticing the colors. I wasn't paying attention to numbers at all since those were older...if you do that, you'll see the way the colors have moved down. Used to see plenty of reds and pinks with the occasional black...as you move down lots of yellows and blues with the occasional pink. OVERALL...slowly but surely...Bubba has been trending down. He's a puzzle and we don't really know why he does what he does, but he is moving down so you're doing something right!
 
Another possibility is to do the 13/11 when it happens. So shoot the pmps of 199 when it has risen at +12.5 or 13 and shoot the amps at +11 or 11.5 (depending on whether you want to do 13/12 or 12.5/11.5) That screws up your feeding schedule potentially being different every day, but you could just lock your self in the bathroom and take a long shower.......

What are you thinking?
After thinking about this scenario a bit, I think it might be maddening with the way he switches up being lower in the PM to the AM and I might find it very confusing with dosing times because of that. But, I won't rule it out.
 
I would increase too if he was mine. It is possible that one of these cycles, he is going to start showing you greens and you do a great job testing, so I am sure you are going to catch it. When you get a number, continue to look at previous numbers to see what dose(s) you gave previously. I always check previous numbers every time to see what dose I gave. If previous numbers with a given dose did not get the nadir that I wanted, I increase. If they did, then I try that same dose again to see if it gave me the same nadir. Eventually, you will probably end up on a sliding scale so all this cross checking that you would have done, would be invaluable information in starting your sliding scale. Does that make sense?
 
I would increase too if he was mine. It is possible that one of these cycles, he is going to start showing you greens and you do a great job testing, so I am sure you are going to catch it. When you get a number, continue to look at previous numbers to see what dose(s) you gave previously. I always check previous numbers every time to see what dose I gave. If previous numbers with a given dose did not get the nadir that I wanted, I increase. If they did, then I try that same dose again to see if it gave me the same nadir. Eventually, you will probably end up on a sliding scale so all this cross checking that you would have done, would be invaluable information in starting your sliding scale. Does that make sense?
That would be wonderful. I am so hoping that he will be more consistant.
 
Merlin is on a 12.5/11.5 or 13/11 schedule. His PMPS is typically lower than his AMPS when on a 12/12 schedule. I only go back to a 12/12 schedule if I pretty much know if he is going to be higher at night due to running flat that day or gone super low during that day. I make note of my times in my comment section so I can cross check that too.
 
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Hi Bobbie,

I don't usually post in PZI because I have so little personal experience with PZI or Prozinc compared to Lantus and Levemir, but your post title caught my eye. I hope you don't mind if I leave some non-insulin-specific thoughts here. I enjoy seeing people who want to think things through so maybe something I say can help.

When I'm studying someone's spreadsheet, I look at the past for history and perspective, but I don't necessarily consider it in my dosing recommendations. I usually spend the most time looking at what has been going on for the past two weeks, and since Bubba had surgery 9 days ago I would probably look mostly at the last 7-8 days. So yes, he got green on a lower dose in the past, but that was then and this is now. Yes he may have been unpredictable in the past, but right now he's pretty darn predictable (basically flat yellow). You say he tends to be higher in one cycle than the other, but really most of his preshots in the past 7-8 days are nearly the same. He is pretty much yellow and some pink, so I wouldn't worry too much about any variance right now. And you're right, if he decides yellow is normal then it could become harder to break through it as time goes on.

What I would do is deal with the "now." For Bubba, that probably means dealing with the flat yellows. Get through that, then deal with whatever his next trick is. His past patterns may or may not return once whatever is causing this resistance goes away (could be residual pain, or meds, some glucose toxicity, or something else or nothing at all). You test enough to catch a breakthrough when it happens, and you know how to deal with low numbers should you find them.

About sliding scales, for what it's worth those were the norm in the PZI ISG when I first came to FDMB eons ago. Most of the PZI users on Health were more conservative and basically went with Start Low, Go Slow. I didn't do it with Lucy because at that point I was still too overwhelmed to think that hard. When the original Idexx PZI was discontinued and Prozinc came out, people here got away from the sliding scale because they weren't sure how similar Prozinc would be to PZI. Lots of people (including me) switched to Lantus at that time and the sliding scale largely disappeared from FDMB. I haven't used Prozinc at all so I have no opinion on how to best use it or whether it is similar to PZI. I did use a sliding scale for KK (on compounded PZI) for about a week because that's what insulin his foster mom had him on, but he only came with a few days' worth of insulin so when that ran out I went with what I knew better (Levemir).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Good luck with Bubba!
 
Libby, several beans here use sliding scales; several hold to a dose for 3+cycles. We have found it varies - some cats do well with sliding scales; some do well with a constant dose.
 
Libby, several beans here use sliding scales; several hold to a dose for 3+cycles. We have found it varies - some cats do well with sliding scales; some do well with a constant dose.
I know, I read the other posts in the thread. That's why I said "largely" disappeared. I also said that I do not have an opinion on how Prozinc would be dosed as compared to PZI.

That was just one small part of my post, what are your thoughts on the rest?
 
You said about the same thing that both Cindi and I said. We suggested that, since Bubba is past his surgery, increasing is probably a good idea. Bobbi said she'd do that tomorrow morning, the first cycle she can monitor.
 
I'm sorry that is all you got out of my post, especially because my intention was not to give dosing advice. Bobbie asked for brainstorming, so I shared some thoughts about my approach to FD. In summary, don't sweat the small stuff, look at the big picture but don't get lost in it, deal with the here and now and expect the here and now to change. If things aren't working the way you want, try different things.

I actually didn't suggest a dose increase (I'm not familiar enough with Bobbie or Bubba). I did suggest making the yellow go away because that is FD Management 101.
 
Angela and Henry were here before I arrived, and I have fond memories of "those days" on the PZI forum. Lots of fun and good friendships.
 
Hi Bobbie,

I don't usually post in PZI because I have so little personal experience with PZI or Prozinc compared to Lantus and Levemir, but your post title caught my eye. I hope you don't mind if I leave some non-insulin-specific thoughts here. I enjoy seeing people who want to think things through so maybe something I say can help.

When I'm studying someone's spreadsheet, I look at the past for history and perspective, but I don't necessarily consider it in my dosing recommendations. I usually spend the most time looking at what has been going on for the past two weeks, and since Bubba had surgery 9 days ago I would probably look mostly at the last 7-8 days. So yes, he got green on a lower dose in the past, but that was then and this is now. Yes he may have been unpredictable in the past, but right now he's pretty darn predictable (basically flat yellow). You say he tends to be higher in one cycle than the other, but really most of his preshots in the past 7-8 days are nearly the same. He is pretty much yellow and some pink, so I wouldn't worry too much about any variance right now. And you're right, if he decides yellow is normal then it could become harder to break through it as time goes on.

What I would do is deal with the "now." For Bubba, that probably means dealing with the flat yellows. Get through that, then deal with whatever his next trick is. His past patterns may or may not return once whatever is causing this resistance goes away (could be residual pain, or meds, some glucose toxicity, or something else or nothing at all). You test enough to catch a breakthrough when it happens, and you know how to deal with low numbers should you find them.

About sliding scales, for what it's worth those were the norm in the PZI ISG when I first came to FDMB eons ago. Most of the PZI users on Health were more conservative and basically went with Start Low, Go Slow. I didn't do it with Lucy because at that point I was still too overwhelmed to think that hard. When the original Idexx PZI was discontinued and Prozinc came out, people here got away from the sliding scale because they weren't sure how similar Prozinc would be to PZI. Lots of people (including me) switched to Lantus at that time and the sliding scale largely disappeared from FDMB. I haven't used Prozinc at all so I have no opinion on how to best use it or whether it is similar to PZI. I did use a sliding scale for KK (on compounded PZI) for about a week because that's what insulin his foster mom had him on, but he only came with a few days' worth of insulin so when that ran out I went with what I knew better (Levemir).

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Good luck with Bubba!
Thanks Libby for your insight about studying the SS. He has been a real puzzle our whole journey and I am I would love to break him out of being stuck in the yellows and see him drop into lower safer numbers ( I am being very specific with my wants when I say "safer" numbers) Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
 
Actually, we have a pretty great group here too. It seems that we have been friends forever. I look forward to visiting with all my friends every day.
Ah, Ditto! This whole forum is pretty awesome! Sometimes :bighug::bighug: people disagree with their approaches but everyone has value with their experience and knowledge because what works for one cat might not work for another and someone else might have an idea or solution. I value all of your opinions and time you spend on the threads helping.
 
Cindi, I have no doubt that's true, and didn't mean to imply differently. What I meant was that back in 2011-12, I was in your shoes, and it's a lot different for me now when I don't have a diabetic cat anymore.
 
Cindi, I have no doubt that's true, and didn't mean to imply differently. What I meant was that back in 2011-12, I was in your shoes, and it's a lot different for me now when I don't have a diabetic cat anymore.
Would you like another diabetic cat, Carl? You can be the Bubba Daddy, HA! Just kidding, I wouldn't trade Bubba for all the tea in China even if he is making me bang my head. :banghead:
 
I will say that I really enjoy the people on this forum. I understand what you're saying Carl...when I first arrived here there were different people. I do miss the fun and friendships we all had, but I truly enjoy being here even without my sweet Gypsy. We have new fun and new friendships and Sue especially has worked hard to make us a community. Since we're such a small group, she's encouraged everyone to post on other's condos and give encouragement when they couldn't give advice. I know you're busy (I am too!) but we'd love to have you come by more often and be part of our community. I know there are differences of opinion, but I think there is room for that. There are enough people here that we can balance it out...anyway, I'm just saying I know you probably miss the folks you used to have here, but we'd love to have you here with our new folks!
 
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