Ha! That's really good news!
(I got a whole bunch of those "oh no - not again!" looks from Bat-Bat today because I had to do a mini-curve.)
no there were no pre shot tests before those doses. I know that makes it hard for people reading the sheet. I can't always do it in the mornings when I'm trying to get out to work.A question: On your SS, where we see blanks in the preshot cells before some doses, were there no preshot tests before those doses? Just checking before I compose my next post.
and on the weekend when I'm trying to actually sleep LOLno there were no pre shot tests before those doses. I know that makes it hard for people reading the sheet. I can't always do it in the mornings when I'm trying to get out to work.
I can't always do it in the mornings when I'm trying to get out to work.
You might want to post a question on Main Health to get some input from others here who work outside the home. They may have some great tips on how to manage those morning AMPS testsand on the weekend when I'm trying to actually sleep
By this I'm assuming you mean in contrast to yesterday's AMPS of 95. Let's look at this more closely: Brandy got half of the previous night's dose of 2U, down to 1 unit 2 hours late @ BG of 168, after that unshootable 95 AMPS; then got 1.5U 90 minutes early that night - so the pink preshot this morning is really no big surprise. With ProZinc, you try to keep it - as best you can - to dosing about 12 hrs. apart. Especially early in treatment, when you're still trying to figure out what the dose should be ...So this morning after 1.5 units last night - it was the complete opposite of the spectrum - 333 !?
; rather, I'm only trying to make it clear to you that without consistent testing at AMPS/PMPS plus mid-cycle testing, it makes it virtually impossible to really know how Brandy is processing the insulin and whether or not the dose should be adjusted.
to do a middle-of-the-night mid-cycle test. But if you can somehow manage to get in some more mid-cycle tests (and please - find a way to always test before shooting insulin, at the very least*) you will actually find that it will make treating your kitty's diabetes much less stressful for you and your family in the long run. Because knowledge is power, especially as relates to treating feline diabetes: The more data you have in your SS, the better you'll understand your Brandy's patterns, and this will guide you in dosing so that you can get Brandy well-regulated and possibly into full remission. This does not mean you need to do full-curves, or anything like that, day in and day out. But the pre-shot testing is essential for keeping your kitty safe*; knowing what she's doing mid-cycle at a certain dose will help you determine what dose is too high and what dose is too low.
who think testing BG's before giving a kitty a shot of insulin is "unnecessary": I can guarantee those vets that NO human's doctor would ever advise a human patient to shoot himself/herself with insulin without getting a pre-shot BG# first. Why should our kitties be any less safe??? Renal threshold is estimated at between 250-300 (depending on the cat); that's the point at which glucose starts spilling into the urine stream. Hence, ruining of the litter box/ extreme hunger you'd mentioned - two classic hallmarks of uncontrolled diabetes.Yeah, I kinda figured the info is limited. I am not going to get up in the middle of the night to poke her ear. Just have to be honest about that. I need my rest and once woken up, I will not be able to go back to sleep and she HATES it. I have to think of her quality of life too if I'm always stabbing her ear, but I get what you're saying. Thanks for trying anyway. The spreadsheet says 9/28 because that's when she started insulin and I didn't have one before that. She was not on insulin. We were trying to get her controlled through diet. Her average numbers without insulin are 250-280 but she was ruining the litter box and was hungry.
Renal threshold is estimated at between 250-300 (depending on the cat); that's the point at which glucose starts spilling into the urine stream. Hence, ruining of the litter box/ extreme hunger you'd mentioned - two classic hallmarks of uncontrolled diabetes.
I understand your position. My best wishes for Brandy's health and success in getting her DM regulated.
Was the right thing to do - good job!I just fed her but of course did not inject
Take heart! What this is telling you is ... her body wants you to lower the dose. (Yay!)Sorry i know i don't have enough data but tonight her BG is only 70!!! It was 300 plus this morning. I don't get it![]()
Bobbie has been through plenty of the "both ends of the spectrum" stuff. @Bobbie And Bubba - Right, Bobbie?And therein lies the true value of always testing before you shoot the insulin.![]()
You can say that again!!Bobbie has been through plenty of the "both ends of the spectrum" stuff. @Bobbie And Bubba - Right, Bobbie?
And again, and again, and again, and ... how many pairs of patience pants have you worn out? But just think: Maybe we'll be able to change Bubba's nickname from "Bubba-Trubba" to "Hubba-Bubba!!!You can say that again!!
Always sad when we lose one of our 4 legged babies......On top of my cat passing a few weeks ago..my brother was forced to put his dog to sleep today. Her name was Angel. Her mouth was bleeding. They thought it was a tooth issue. She was put under anesthesia. The doc said she had a huge tumor in her mouth and throat and had days or weeks to live. So he went to say goodbye. When he dropped her off this morning he didn't think he would never see her again. Doc said she would suffer though. She was a sweet dog. Anyway ..stressful sad day ..again
My patience pants having patches on the patches......And again, and again, and again, and ... how many pairs of patience pants have you worn out? But just think: Maybe we'll be able to change Bubba's nickname from "Bubba-Trubba" to "Hubba-Bubba!!!![]()
Yes, so glad you didn't skip the preshot test tonight, could have been a disaster.Was the right thing to do - good job!
Take heart! What this is telling you is ... her body wants you to lower the dose. (Yay!)
So that's good news, right?(And therein lies the true value of always testing before you shoot the insulin.
)
If this what you did: Dosed 0.5U four hours into the cycle? You really should avoid dosing any insulin that late. It does not matter that she went higher mid-cycle after a skipped dose (we would fully expect that); ProZinc is dosed twice per day on a 12-hour schedule. When you skip a dose at AMPS or PMPS, you skip the dose for that entire cycle, period.I gave her .5 unit but Its 4 hours late. In this scenario is it best to skip it completely ?
In the long run Novolin is NOT cheaper. You buy more of it, more often because it is only 40 unit insulin. The ProZinc I just got was only $95 and will last 6 months.Yes i know Its not great. But i have had two vets locally say they only use it..i guess lack of info but One said most of his clients can't afford anything else. Pros n con's i guess
yes. I thought I was supposed to skip the dose completely, but since her numbers were so high my husband thought it wouldnt hurt her to give her a little insulin and he didnt want her to get too high over night so we only gave 1/2 unit.Sorry, just got back from a BD party. I'm not understanding what you're saying here; I thought you skipped the dose tonight? You just now gave 0.5U?
If this what you did: Dosed 0.5U four hours into the cycle? You really should avoid dosing any insulin that late. It does not matter that she went higher mid-cycle after a skipped dose (we would fully expect that); ProZinc is dosed twice per day on a 12-hour schedule. When you skip a dose at AMPS or PMPS, you skip the dose for that entire cycle, period.
While trying to get a diabetic kitty regulated, we can expect some high #s - and cats' bodies can actually handle those high numbers from time to time much more easily than they can handle too-low BG#s - generally speaking, it's only when they are running extremely high BG#s for extended periods of time that this poses a real danger. (We have a saying around here, as relates to the hazards posed by a hypoglycemic event: "Better too high for a day than too low for a moment.")
The only time you dose a little late is generally within that first hour directly after getting a too-low pre-shot number and if - after stalling and withholding food and retesting the BG every 15-20 minutes - you get a shootable number at that time (200 or more).
Shooting any insulin too far into in a 12-hour cycle - regardless of a higher number you may be seeing at any point later in the cycle - means that whatever amount was dosed late will end up overlapping into the next cycle at preshot time. So we will now need to consider that additional amount you shot when deciding on her dose in the morning, as ProZinc can last anywhere from 10 to 12 hours after an injection. (Sometimes even longer, which is often indicated by a too-low-to-shoot preshot BG# - something you had just experience at tonight's AMPS time.)
Dosing insulin too many hours into the current cycle can also put your kitty at risk for dropping too low at nadir during the next cycle after she gets her shot of insulin at her normal pre-shot time. And here's what often happens after a too-low* nadir (*meaning a more than 50% drop in BG from the pre-shot BG#): A bounce, where the very next pre-shot BG# goes really high.
Keep in mind that you were already going to need to reduce her dose in the morning, even though you will likely see a higher-than-usual AMPS. So can you now see how dosing some insulin late in a cycle can complicate matters further? (I didn't realize you somehow got the idea that it's okay to dose this much later. You might want to read through the ProZinc protocols again.)
Sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I hope this clarifies it some for you.Don't worry, you'll get the hang of this; it's all a learning process (believe me, we've all been through it
).
Were you able to get a test in on her at AMPS time this morning?Oh okay. I understand now. Thank you for the information!
In the long run Novolin is NOT cheaper. You buy more of it, more often because it is only 40 unit insulin. The ProZinc I just got was only $95 and will last 6 months.
You think you're stressed out now,...the Novolin threw me a curve the very first dose. I HALVED what the vet Rx ed and still hypo ed my cat. Cat slept all the time and lethargic. No fun. Plus the insulin does not ever last very long. It will keep you busier than you ever want to be.
My opinion on why some vets "only use it".. Because they have very little experience with regulated cats if that is all they are using. I imagine they also are the ones who strictly prescribe prescription DRY CAT FOOD too.
Just my 2 cents.
All the best.
-Brenda
Were you able to get a test in on her at AMPS time this morning?
yes I told him specifically not to do anything without a BG. I'm making the poor guy a nervous wreck and he already is. It's his long time companion cat that has terminal cancer. Ugh. ThanksPlease tell him not to shoot any insulin until you let us know what the # is, ok?
Oh, I understand what a heartbreaker that is ... we lost our last 2 dogs to liver cancer. And when you wrote about your brother's Angel-dog yesterday, I knew all too well what that felt like, as we'd taken our "Little Dog" in for what we thought was a cold (she'd suddenly started sneezing/coughing), but it turned out that she had metastisized cancer in her lungs - the secondary site; it had started in her liver. She was totally without symptoms until that day! And within the week, we had to let her go when she began sneezing blood. Terrible for our fuzzy friends, and so hard to have to lose them in that way. So I really feel for you & your hubby about your other kitty.yes I told him specifically not to do anything without a BG. I'm making the poor guy a nervous wreck and he already is. It's his long time companion cat that has terminal cancer. Ugh. Thanks

yes it's really heartbreaking. OMG That is so awful that you had to go through that! It sure is tough when they go. My brother text me this morning and I asked if he was okay and he said "not really. I'm heart broken" Anyway, Brandy I dont know ...this insulin stuff is trickyOh, I understand what a heartbreaker that is ... we lost our last 2 dogs to liver cancer. And when you wrote about your brother's Angel-dog yesterday, I knew all too well what that felt like, as we'd taken our "Little Dog" in for what we thought was a cold (she'd suddenly started sneezing/coughing), but it turned out that she had metastisized cancer in her lungs - the secondary site; it had started in her liver. She was totally without symptoms until that day! And within the week, we had to let her go when she began sneezing blood. Terrible for our fuzzy friends, and so hard to have to lose them in that way. So I really feel for you & your hubby about your other kitty.![]()
I really wish he hadn't done that, as she still has that half-unit that was shot 4 hours into last night's cycle circulating in her system. I'm sorry, as I know he's already stressed but ... You must make it clear to him that he NEEDS to test her by +4 to make sure she doesn't drop too low. Even though he saw a 357 this morning, her dose should have been reduced (even had you guys not shot her with 0.5 after that +4 test last night). Even with a (late) AMPS result of 357 today, I would have told you to have him shoot only 0.5, as that's the reduction that was called for (based solely on her low PMPS last night).well - correction. He didn't listen to what I said (he's a man. shocking) The BG is 357 and he already injected - one unit.
I told him already. I don't know if we can keep this kind of thing up every day. It's too much worrying if she's too high or too low all the time. We have a daughter and many other things to think about too. I know everyone here understands. Anyway, I told him what you said. ThanksI really wish he hadn't done that, as she still has that half-unit that was shot 4 hours into last night's cycle circulating in her system. I'm sorry, as I know he's already stressed but ... You must make it clear to him that he NEEDS to test her by +4 to make sure she doesn't drop too low. Even though he saw a 357 this morning, her dose should have been reduced (even had you guys not shot her with 0.5 after that +4 test last night). Even with a (late) AMPS result of 357 today, I would have told you to have him shoot only 0.5, as that's the reduction that was called for (based solely on her low PMPS last night).
With all sincerity, RobinWell ... as keeping up with home-testing is a essential part of keeping a diabetic kitty safe & getting her diabetes well under control, and it seems pretty clear that treating Brandy is just adding more stress to the mix when your family is already stressed out by the heartbreak of having a kitty with terminal cancer, the only other option I can suggest to you is to seriously consider finding a new home for Brandy. While I know this is probably not what you want to hear, looking at it realistically:
1) This situation is too stressful for you & your family, as you already have so much on your plate.
2) Insulin is a powerful hormone; it requires being able to stick to the protocol for whichever insulin you're using, and regardless of which insulin that is, it also requires consistent testing at the normal AMPS/PMPS times - as well as some mid-cycle tests - so that kitty remains safe and to guide you in dosing the correct amount of insulin.
3) It is really not best for a diabetic kitty to be placed at risk for hypoglycemic events (and that risk does exist without consistent testing when dosing insulin) - as a severe hypoglycemic event can kill quickly. (And even if it doesn't, if a cat ends up in an emergency vet clinic for treatment of severe hypoglycemia, this is a very expensive "fix" for such a problem.)
So all in all, I'd have to say it's probably time for you and your hubby to do some soul-searching about what's best for you and the diabetic kitty you adopted. Believe it or not, there are people out there who would be willing to take her off your hands, even though she has an active case of diabetes.
Again, I know all this is both stressful and hard for you, and you have my sympathies in being in a place where you have to make some difficult choices.
With all sincerity, Robin
I am sorry you felt that I was pushing and overstepping; truly that was not my intent.Yes. I am aware of all of this.... As i've mentioned before, I have had Brandy only since June. I adopted her from the Humane Society not knowing she is chronically ill. I found out 3 days after adopting her. The option they gave me??? Bring her back and we will put her down, they said. Had they known she was ill, she would not be alive today.
I feel like we've done a lot more (though no perfectly) than a lot of people would have even considered or attempted, money and time wise for a cat they just got. I appreciate your info, but I feel like you're pushing and over stepping because believe me, I am PAINFULLY aware of everything you pointed out already. I didn't want to abandon Brandy. I did call around. No one wants her with diabetes. I chose not to put her down and give her a chance. There are many people I know of that do not constantly home test and their cats are fine. I commend the efforts here, completely. It's just harder for some people. Thank you for all of your help.
Yes. I am aware of all of this.... As i've mentioned before, I have had Brandy only since June. I adopted her from the Humane Society not knowing she is chronically ill. I found out 3 days after adopting her. The option they gave me??? Bring her back and we will put her down, they said. Had they known she was ill, she would not be alive today.
I feel like we've done a lot more (though no perfectly) than a lot of people would have even considered or attempted, money and time wise for a cat they just got. I appreciate your info, but I feel like you're pushing and over stepping because believe me, I am PAINFULLY aware of everything you pointed out already. I didn't want to abandon Brandy. I did call around. No one wants her with diabetes. I chose not to put her down and give her a chance. There are many people I know of that do not constantly home test and their cats are fine. I commend the efforts here, completely. It's just harder for some people. Thank you for all of your help.
People here really do have the best of intentions--and I know how overwhelming diabetes can be when you're first learning the ropes. When Bandit was diagnosed 6 years ago, I was an absolute wreck. He fought every test I tried to give him. But, in a few weeks I was able to figure it out. I would wrap him in a blanket and test him in the same spot every time, giving him a treat after each test. I used a higher gauge Lancet (26g) and warmed his ear before each test to make the test go quicker and easier to get the drop of blood. After a while he totally chilled out and now he comes running when he hears the meter beep on and sits patiently while we do his tests. The tests don't hurt them--cats have very few nerve endings in their ears (less than people have in their fingertips when they test themselves). They just need it to become part of their routine. I'm sure you'll fall into a routine with Brandy that works for you...once you stop being nervous around the cat with the tests, and start making it a fact of life for them, even the most fractious ones calm right down after a little while and accept them.
Have you checked out the hometesting tips and tricks? They sure helped me out a ton! http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/
While it's true cats can survive for some time without hometesting, or on a dry, high carb diet, or on an insulin like Novolin, what we really advocate here at FDMB is for treatment that will help your cat get better. When you test 3 times a day (before each shot, and once mid-cycle), you have the information you need to accurately dose your cat and maintain good control over her blood sugar. Not only are you keeping the cat safe, good control over blood sugar is what leads to remission. The large majority of cats whose owners test at least 3 times a day, feed a low carb, canned diet, and use one of the cat appropriate insulins (Prozinc, Lantus, or Levemir) go into remission. And a cat in remission is FAR easier to care for than one on insulin, and I can personally vouch for that! I have a very busy schedule, I work well over 40 hours a week, and I am very relieved that Bandit is currently going back into remission so that I soon don't have to worry about buying insulin, giving shots, or testing every day. Of the 6 years since he was diagnosed, he's only actually been on insulin about a year and a half of that time. And for the most part, he's been healthier than most cats his age.
But, if you don't feel ready to go that far yet because you're tired and overwhelmed, I think your best option is to just keep doing the best you can currently do with her (and I would include keeping her on Prozinc--Novolin is NOT a good insulin for cats and you won't see her diabetes improve on it like you will with Prozinc, and progress IS future money that you don't have to spend on insulin, period, if you can get her into remission.) When you're more comfortable with your routine, and more confident with testing her (and she's not fighting you as much), then maybe you can come back and see how getting better control over her BG could benefit you, Brandy, and your family? It seems hard at first, but you'd be surprised how easy it gets with a little time.
come back? You mean come back to the message board when I'm more comfortable?