having a meltdown

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Carol & Murphy (GA)

Member Since 2015
Yesterday started so good - I gave him small amounts of Young Again over the previous several days and he liked it. So yesterday I started that as his diet - he ate okay during the day and his numbers were amazing - he ate a little right as I was giving his evening dose of insulin but then didn't touch anything the rest of the night. Didn't act or look sick - just wouldn't eat anything. I knew I probably gave too much insulin. I saw his numbers go down and gave him a few pieces of kibble he wasn't supposed to have. This morning he came and woke me up as usual and seemed very anxious to eat - his amps is 426. Except he won't eat anything - either the Young again or the Royal Canin glycobalance. I even put out a little canned which I know would make him sick in larger quantities just sniffs and walks away He is purring and preening and not appearing ill , but won't eat. How much insulin should I give after eating basically nothing since yesterday afternoon?
I don't know how much more of this I can take - as time goes on, it's getting much more difficult
 
update - I pulled out the Purina DM dry that I started out with when he was first diagnosed and he ate some of that Now I have to give him some insulin but don't know how much - 1.5 units?
 
Carol I feel your pain. While Colin is eating, I'm feeling like you that I don't know how much more I can take. If I saw any progress at all, I think it would spur me on and make it easier. I don't know what to tell you to do. Just know you're not alone.

Glad he ate some!
 
@Sharon14 This has taken over my life I only got a about 3 hours of sleep last night I think he may be a kitty that can't be controlled. My vet said some cats can take up to a year to regulate - but with his weight loss he doesn't have that long
 
I looked at your spreadsheet. Yesterday's numbers were beautiful- Yellows and blues. (Colin and I dream of those.) maybe the high number this AM is a bounce. What did you decide to shoot?
 
about 1.75 (eyeball) I know - yesterday I thought Young Again was the answer. He develops food aversions very easily - had hepatic lipidosis several years back, and wouldn't eat anything he had eaten prior to that. I really don't know what is going on now - I don't think your numbers look that bad - no blacks (which is my threshold) for bad numbers
 
Remember I'm using a human meter which reads lower than your Alphatrack, so some of my high 400's are probably 500's. I will never give dosing advice, but I wonder if you shouldn't get a bit more aggressive. It's scary, I know, but yesterday he had beautiful numbers but not really near a hypo. If Colin did that, I would get nervous and ask for help too, but at this point(I've been treating him since March). I think I would shoot at least 2, if not 2.5 as usual. Again this is NOT dosing advice. Maybe Sue or Rachel will be up soon to guide you for tonight. In the meantime it's good you gave him a shot you are comfortable with. Try to get some rest today.
 
I understand completely. I haven't had a day where Colin won't eat, and he doesn't have tummy problems, so I would probably be worried like you about that. I'm just to a point where I'm ready to push Colin. I'm concerned because he has been so high for so long and even though he looks ok, I know this is hard on his kidneys, and I need to make some progress. I had such high hopes for the insulin change, and I know it's only been a couple days, but I see no progress and I know some of that may be my fault because I'm still having problems with injections. I may try to shave a spot so I can see his skin better.(I'm sure he'll love the clippers!). I hope Murphy has a good day and his appetite picks up. Have you checked out the slippery elm bark? I don't have the links, but google it and read about it. Maybe it will help Murphy.
 
@Sharon14 thanks for the encouragement - I'm just trying to give him 0.5 units more of insulin but he is trying to bite me when I do it - I will look at the slippery elm - I have never heard of it I was about to shave Murphy too but I am finding the tent in the shoulder area has worked for me, although Murphy still tries to bite me when I do it good luck
 
Has he eaten any more? Could it be the lower numbers have lowered his appetite? I don't know if that's something that could happen. If he's trying to bite you, just let it go. When Sue or Rachel come on they can help you get back on track.
 
Hi Carol, I don't think it's a good idea to give more insulin after you all ready did. Wait till the next shot time to dose more if you feel he needs it. I remembering wanting to do the same thing and I was advice not to do that.
 
I am sorry, Carol, that you feel so overwhelmed. Sharon is right - the last two cycles had some lovely blues, but yes, he bounced each time. If you have to skip today, just think of it as a fur shot and a day off for both of you. Take a nap and don't test.

It sounds like the food issue is causing you the most stress. Have you asked the vet about pancreatitis? I hesitate to throw another issue in the mix, but wonder if eating makes his tummy hurt. (Sometimes if they seem to want to eat but then won't is a symptom) Marje put this pancreatitis primer together and it is very informative. Maybe look at some of the symptoms and see if they sound familiar. I know it would seem like an additional problem, but it is manageable and pain meds can make a huge difference if it is that it hurts to eat.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/a-primer-on-pancreatitis.83108/

If he will only eat the dry Purina, then that is what you feed. And you work around it by increasing the insulin. Your dose yesterday was good with the Young Again. His nadirs were safe (we don't worry unless they go down below 50). It is promising that he can drop into blues. Now it's a matter of finding a dose and a food that can get him into those better ranges.
 
Sorry, I missed that she was able to give him a dose. I think it was a good choice and still urge you to take a day off. He won't be dropping too low so plan a nap or a walk or a movie? Leave him some food and see if he will nibble on it.
 
Carol, just some more encouragement, it has only been since 8/2 that Murphy was DX, it will take longer than it has been to regulate him. My cat was DX the end of May, and he still isn't regulated. The important thing is to keep him safe, which you are doing. And he is getting some nice numbers. When I was overwhelmed like you, Sue advised me to do something fun, go for a walk, a movie, a nap. Be good to yourself and try to relax a bit. He is doing pretty good with the diabetes. The eating thing is a problem, does he like tuna? Maybe a bit to jump start his appetite, parmesan chees sprinkled on his food or some bonita flakes sprinkled on top. Whatever it takes for him to eat. Or maybe crush some of the of DM and put it on top of the wet food.
 
Thanks for the advice - I did dose the 1.75 and tried to give him another 0.5 units about 20 minutes later but didn't (and won't) do it His eating issues predate the diabetes -yes, it is the food issue that has me most upset because he is so unpredictable - this is the first time since his dx that I've had to deal with it and I can't really trust after I give him a dose that he will eat normally. Add to this Friday I finally got a baby scale and he has lost a significant amount of weight in the last month so I'm desperately trying to push the calories I so appreciate the opportunity to vent and all the helpful advice I am feeling rather pessimistic about the long term though
 
Carol, just some more encouragement, it has only been since 8/2 that Murphy was DX, it will take longer than it has been to regulate him. My cat was DX the end of May, and he still isn't regulated. The important thing is to keep him safe, which you are doing. And he is getting some nice numbers. When I was overwhelmed like you, Sue advised me to do something fun, go for a walk, a movie, a nap. Be good to yourself and try to relax a bit. He is doing pretty good with the diabetes. The eating thing is a problem, does he like tuna? Maybe a bit to jump start his appetite, parmesan chees sprinkled on his food or some bonita flakes sprinkled on top. Whatever it takes for him to eat. Or maybe crush some of the of DM and put it on top of the wet food.
Hi, Carol. My Squallie can sometimes be a finicky eater. I use Pure Bites dehydrated chicken or turkey treats to crumble over his food, it's the only thing I have found that gets him to eat when he doesn't seem to want to. We play a "game;" I crumble a treat over his food, he eats a little, repeat, repeat, repeat...until most of the food has finally been consumed. Also -and I have no idea why this works with him- I can almost always get him to eat if I use a regular table spoon and scoop up very small portions to offer him, on the spoon. Guess it makes him feel special, lol.
 
Vent all you need, I get it. Oh, do I get it. One day recently Bubba didn't eat much at all and I needed to dose him. I was advised that as long as he eats at least a tbsp. of wet, go ahead and dose.
 
Hi, Carol. My Squallie can sometimes be a finicky eater. I use Pure Bites dehydrated chicken or turkey treats to crumble over his food, it's the only thing I have found that gets him to eat when he doesn't seem to want to. We play a "game;" I crumble a treat over his food, he eats a little, repeat, repeat, repeat...until most of the food has finally been consumed. Also -and I have no idea why this works with him- I can almost always get him to eat if I use a regular table spoon and scoop up very small portions to offer him, on the spoon. Guess it makes him feel special, lol.
Squallie was born with a silver spoon in his mouth!!!
 
thanks for the ideas - have you ever heard of a cat that doesn't like tuna? well, it's Murphy - he won't even drink tuna water. This pre-dates the diabetes, but despite repeated attempts, he has never tolerated any type of wet food - he loves it, but after a day or two, he vomits and won't eat for a day or so. Once about two years ago, when discussing this with my vet, she said "lets hope he never gets diabetes" Cruel irony. This inability to feed wet food obviously severely limits my options now. That's why I had such high hopes for Young Again. Buy Pure bites at Petsmart? I may try the parmesan cheese don't know what I would do without this forum Your advice is so much appreciated
 
@ Bobby - if eating just a little, what dose were you advised to give?
I gave his normal dose at that time. I would imagine that you tried all flavors of wet, correct? Think it was on another thread that someone said that beef and fish are two big allergy offenders in cats. Will he not eat chicken or turkey either? And wondering, when he does eat can, dose he scarf it down quickly resulting in him regurgitating it immediately? Or does he throw it up later? Just trying to figure out if he has the scarf and barf thing going on.
 
Thanks for the advice - I did dose the 1.75 and tried to give him another 0.5 units about 20 minutes later but didn't (and won't) do it His eating issues predate the diabetes -yes, it is the food issue that has me most upset because he is so unpredictable - this is the first time since his dx that I've had to deal with it and I can't really trust after I give him a dose that he will eat normally. Add to this Friday I finally got a baby scale and he has lost a significant amount of weight in the last month so I'm desperately trying to push the calories I so appreciate the opportunity to vent and all the helpful advice I am feeling rather pessimistic about the long term though
I can't give any dosing advice, I'm fairly new here as well, but I can certainly give encouragement! You are doing a great job with a tough situation! I know it doesn't seem like it now but dealing with diabetes will get easier.

As for the Pure Bites, I think someone else here said they got them at a pet store, maybe Petsmart; I order mine online.

Have you ever tried raw for Murphy? I've been feeding raw, along with some canned (which I know Murphy can't eat) for about a month. I didn't think my cats would eat it, but they love it. I use Nature's Variety Instinct raw chicken, in the small nuggets. Don't know whether or not that might be an option for you.

What is your dosing routine? It sounds like you dose and then feed? Most folks here feed first, after the PS test, and then dose. It would probably make it easier on you for the times when you need to figure out a reduced dose.

Murphy is such a cutie!
 
I can't give any dosing advice, I'm fairly new here as well, but I can certainly give encouragement! You are doing a great job with a tough situation! I know it doesn't seem like it now but dealing with diabetes will get easier.

As for the Pure Bites, I think someone else here said they got them at a pet store, maybe Petsmart; I order mine online.

Have you ever tried raw for Murphy? I've been feeding raw, along with some canned (which I know Murphy can't eat) for about a month. I didn't think my cats would eat it, but they love it. I use Nature's Variety Instinct raw chicken, in the small nuggets. Don't know whether or not that might be an option for you.

What is your dosing routine? It sounds like you dose and then feed? Most folks here feed first, after the PS test, and then dose. It would probably make it easier on you for the times when you need to figure out a reduced dose.

Murphy is such a cutie!
Lucy, do you give the Nature's Variety as a snack or a meal? If a meal, how much would you give?
 
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Lucy, do you give the Nature's Variety as a snack or a meal? If a meal, how much would you give?/
My guys usually eat three times a day; I give each a half a can of FF Classic Turkey and Giblets, and mix in 2-2.5 oz of the frozen Nature's Variety Instinct Raw. Everybody seems to be doing extremely well on this diet, and it's okay for both Squallie and Candy (IBD) so that makes my life a whole lot easier. If they seem to be extra hungry, I just add in a little more of the raw.

If someone had told me six months ago that not only would I be treating a diabetic cat, and one with IBD, and getting everyone to eat raw, I would have told them they were crazy; funny how we end up doing things we never thought we'd do! :)
 
I gave his normal dose at that time. I would imagine that you tried all flavors of wet, correct? Think it was on another thread that someone said that beef and fish are two big allergy offenders in cats. Will he not eat chicken or turkey either? And wondering, when he does eat can, dose he scarf it down quickly resulting in him regurgitating it immediately? Or does he throw it up later? Just trying to figure out if he has the scarf and barf thing going on.
@Bobbie - In the last 5 years since I adopted him, I have tried all varieties for almost all the major brands (Friskies, FF, Science diet, Iams, etc) the pattern is always the same - I try to introduce it gradually (1/4 small can/day) he loves it and eats it (prefers it to dry) but just when I am up to more than 1/2 can/day, he has a day or two of vomiting, not eating at all, seems nauseous, won't even look at the canned food, but after a day or two will return to the dry food. He has always seemingly had an occasional bad day (unrelated to canned food) where he won't eat anything all day, but when I wake up in the morning, he has cleaned out his food dish (this is the first time this has happened since his diabetes dx) but last night he didn't eat anything at all. Maybe I overdid it on introducing Young Again too quickly. I may try the Nature's variety Instinct raw - where do you get it? Can that be the only food? I've heard of many cats getting diarrhea with raw food diets.
I feed first and then dose - the issue with the dry food is that he doesn't eat it all right away - like yesterday he ate a little, so I dosed him, and then he didn't eat any more for the rest of the day - that was unexpected.
 
Do you think he could eat just a small amount of canned food everyday? If 1/4 of a can doesn't make him sick, just give him that much and the rest of his meal the dry, and don't even try to feed more canned than that. Do you think he could tolerate that day after day? It's not perfect, but it would lower the overall carbs.
 
...I finally got a baby scale and he has lost a significant amount of weight in the last month so I'm desperately trying to push the calories I so appreciate the opportunity to vent and all the helpful advice I am feeling rather pessimistic about the long term though
I know it can be discouraging but please don't give up. You really are doing a great job! A lot of diabetic kitties do lose weight because they are unable to use the calories they consume so they start breaking down their own body fat. Hopefully, now that Murphy is on insulin, he will start to gain back some of that weight.

Yes, you can feed raw as a complete diet. I get my Nature's Variety at our local Concord Pet. I imagine almost any of the big chain pet stores would carry it. Many vets do not recommend feeding raw (including my own!) because of the risk of salmonella, both to the cat and the owner. I feed it primarily because I have a kitty with IBD and it is one of the few things that doesn't give her terrible diarrhea. You could also try cooking for your kitty; lots of people cook for their cats, mostly chicken it seems, and their cats do very well. If he likes the YA maybe you could try mixing a little raw or home-cooked chicken in with it to see what he thinks.
 
Hey Carol! I would have chimed in sooner but we had a rough night at my house (no kitty problems, just to clarify!). In the end, he's got to eat...so if you find something he'll eat, feed it. If it's dry food with higher carbs, we will just have to use insulin to work with it.

Don't lose heart! I know how hard this is, but you can do this. I agree with Sue...you need a break. Take yourself out today...go shopping or to a movie or just take a long, lovely nap. You deserve it!
 
@Sharon14
I feed first and then dose - the issue with the dry food is that he doesn't eat it all right away - like yesterday he ate a little, so I dosed him, and then he didn't eat any more for the rest of the day - that was unexpected.
Yeah, maybe what @Sharon14 suggested, just 1/4 can of wet and some of the YA or the DM, whichever he'll eat. So, it sounds like he is a grazer if during the night, he cleans up his bowl. So, if he will tolerate 1/4 can of wet, figure out what the calories are the wet you feed him (Fancy Feast classics are somewhere around 98-100 calories per 3 oz. can) and the calories in the dry food that you measure out to add up to what he should be eat in a serving. The rule of thumb for feeding cats is about 20 per cat pound. You will want to calculate that for his ideal weight. So say he should be 10 lbs times that by 20 and he should be getting 200 calories a day. My cat I give 360 -400, he's 17 lbs. but should be about 20 lbs.
 
You can also get freeze-dried raw and I'm guessing the risk of salmonella is a little lower with it.
In the end, he's got to eat...so if you find something he'll eat, feed it. If it's dry food with higher carbs, we will just have to use insulin to work with it.
If he will only eat the dry Purina, then that is what you feed. And you work around it by increasing the insulin.
Sue and Rachel are spot-on with great advice! It's great if you can get him onto a low-carb diet but ultimately you may just have to go with what you can get him to eat and adjust his insulin accordingly. Just don't give up. As I've been reminded many times by wiser minds, this is a marathon, not a sprint, changes and results tend to come slowly, but your efforts are so worth it!

Follow some more great advice and take a break from it for a few hours, you need some time away from it. Sending hugs for you and chin scritches for Murphy! :bighug::cat:
 
I know it can be discouraging but please don't give up. You really are doing a great job! A lot of diabetic kitties do lose weight because they are unable to use the calories they consume so they start breaking down their own body fat. Hopefully, now that Murphy is on insulin, he will start to gain back some of that weight.

Yes, you can feed raw as a complete diet. I get my Nature's Variety at our local Concord Pet. I imagine almost any of the big chain pet stores would carry it. Many vets do not recommend feeding raw (including my own!) because of the risk of salmonella, both to the cat and the owner. I feed it primarily because I have a kitty with IBD and it is one of the few things that doesn't give her terrible diarrhea. You could also try cooking for your kitty; lots of people cook for their cats, mostly chicken it seems, and their cats do very well. If he likes the YA maybe you could try mixing a little raw or home-cooked chicken in with it to see what he thinks.
@Squaliesmom - may be a strange question but can you heat up the raw food (to kill salmonella)? Murphy doesn't like chicken (won't touch tiki cat succulent chicken or other cooked chicken I've offered him) What has me upset is that he has lost about 3 lb (from 11 to 8) while he has been on insulin - it's with different baby scales but it can't be that off. Although if you look at him, he doesn't look ill.
 
Is this the first time you've weighed Murphy on your scales? I ask because the other day, at the vet, the tech took Colin to the back and weighed him. She came back with 11.6! I was stunned so we weighed him on another scale and got 12.9 which is what I've been getting at home. Anyway, how does he feel when you lift him? Can you feel his backbone? Take note of these things too to help you keep track of his weight.
 
Yes, I just got a new baby scale. His ideal weight is probably 11 - ~ 6 months ago, he was up to about 12.5 lb @ dx 8/2 he was 11.25 in ER vets scale, on 9/2 11.3 on my vets scale, and Friday 8.3 lb on my new scale. He does seem thinner but it is to hard to tell with all that fur But after your message, now I have hope that it could be a pound or so off. He doesn't feel all that much lighter when I pick him up, but I am feeling unsure about everything today
 
I don't have a baby scale, I have one of the old kinds and I always have to reset it. Don't know why. Is there a way to calibrate the scales? Try weighing something that you know exactly what it weighs. See if it's accurate.
 
To calibrate or compare: Go in your pantry and find an unopen bag of something like a 5lb of pinto beans, or 5 lb of flour or 1.5 lb of sugar.

When Merlin was first dx he was 8.8 lbs. He is a large cat and his before weight was 12 lbs. He lost weight fast and was skin and bones by the time we saw him (my daughter and I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail and was gone for six months). It basically took me a year to get Merlin somewhat looking and feeling better. To be quite honest, I am surprised that he lived. For the first year, he would get sick, vomit, get constipated, wouldn't eat and soon after diabetic dx, we also found out that he is Stage 3 kidney disease. It was a really rough year. He would bounce, bounce and did some more bouncing that sometimes would last for days.

So here are some of the things that I tried:
* Pepcid AC - 1/4 tablet in am and 1/4 tablet in pm. This helped a lot. Sometimes when he wouldn't eat, I would syringe his Pepcid AC and then wait about 30 minutes before I would try food again. Sometimes, I would use this daily even though he was eating.
* Coconut Oil (Cold Pressed, Organic) - Sometimes I would put this on his food and other times, I would have him lick it off a spoon. For some reason, my dogs and cats love the taste of coconut oil. When I go to the pantry, and they hear me open the can, they all come a running. I don't think it has any carbs and it helps with allergies, itching, etc.
* Organic Chicken/Beef either Broth, Granules or Bouillon Cubes - You need to make sure that there is not any additives or sweetener. I would make a little au jus and let him drink it (when I was desperate) otherwise, I would put it over his food. With the bouillon cubes or granules, you can make it stronger. I would freeze the broth and put it in a bowl for in between meal snacks.
* Add Pure bites, Bonita Flakes, Parmesan Cheese over food. For some reason this did not work as well but I always went back to try it. I bought the Pure Bites at Petsmart. Because my other cats love it, I go to the dog section and by the bigger pack. It is much cheaper than the little kitty packet, but you have to break it down to little pieces.
* Medium Carb Food - It seems that the higher the carb, the tastier it is. Again, in desperate events, I would mix the medium carb food with the lower carb food. By medium, the carb percentage was 8-17%. That seems to work pretty good and it only affected the BG for a day or two. I would rather get him to eat and deal with the BG numbers.
* Miralax - Sometimes, his constipation led him to not want to eat. So as long as he was not completely blocked, I would give him Miralax. At first, I gave him daily (1/4 tsp BID).
* Salmon - I am a vegetarian so this always hurts to go shopping for this, but I go to the Natural grocery store and buy organic (no dye or additives), wild salmon. I would dehydrate and sometimes cook it and sprinkle on his food. One of my cats don't like tuna much but they love the salmon.
* Exercise - About 15-30 minutes before feeding time, I would get the old fuzzy thing on a stick and would have him chase it or something. Even if the other cats join in and Merlin would watch, he still is getting into it.
* Puree Meat - Merlin doesn't like shredded chicken whether I boil it for him or if it is in one of those Tiki cans. So I would puree the chicken or any meat or fish. I think it is because he only has one fang so he seems to like the soupy stuff better.

Merlin never gained all his weight back but he is now at 10.4 lbs. For the first 1 1/2 years, I fed him almost every 2-3 hours or whenever he wanted. I figured that as long as he is hungry, I would feed and hopefully, he would gain the weight. Now, we go about every 3 hours and typically he usually only wants 2 tablespoons (sometimes 3) per feeding.

Hopefully there is something new here that may help.
 
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@Squaliesmom - may be a strange question but can you heat up the raw food (to kill salmonella)? Murphy doesn't like chicken (won't touch tiki cat succulent chicken or other cooked chicken I've offered him) What has me upset is that he has lost about 3 lb (from 11 to 8) while he has been on insulin - it's with different baby scales but it can't be that off. Although if you look at him, he doesn't look ill.
That's a good question, and one I do not know the answer to. I would suggest contacting the manufacturers for guidance with that, they are usually very good about getting back to you quickly with advice and help with their products. Ironically, Squallie will not eat the Tiki Cat chicken, which all my other guys just love, but he will eat the Instinct raw chicken, go figure!

Has your vet told you what Murphy's ideal weight should be? Different scales can have a pretty big variance. Does your vet use one of those big stainless steel scales/exam table, or does he use a baby scale? My vet uses one of the big ones, and told me that my baby scale will give me different readings as it is designed to weigh lighter objects. @Merlin Cindi has some great ideas, too. When Squallie was first diagnosed he had lost about two lbs, I had to feed lots of small meals throughout the day and night, as well. And exercise is very important; Squall was a chubby, lazy senior, but now he is an active, fit senior, and enjoying it!
 
thanks for all the great suggestions I usually have been giving him a pepcid in the am mixed with his zyrtec and probiotic
my vet uses a baby scale - I just got one - put a 8 lb hand weight on it and it weighed in a 8.14 so I guess it's pretty accurate my vet has said his target weight was 11 lb
your posts have made me feel better that there is some hope regarding the weight loss- the diabetic dry and Young Again are very high in calories so in this case, that is good - just have to get his body to use the calories
I will try to exercise him more - getting dry food, I am torn between offering it every few hours or just free feeding him - especially at night - I will have to leave some in his dish
the downside of this is that it will be unknown whether his amps was food influenced or not (this is assuming I can get him to eat) and if he's not starving in the am, I can't ever be sure he will eat before/after the am insulin (pm too for that matter)
 
I've used baby food for cats that wouldn't eat too. Just remember it's not a complete meal for a cat nutrient wise. How is Murphy this afternoon?
 
I've used baby food for cats that wouldn't eat too. Just remember it's not a complete meal for a cat nutrient wise. How is Murphy this afternoon?
True, it would only be used to jumpstart Murphy's appetite. And, if he would eat it, then maybe you could start adding it to the food you wanted him to eat.
 
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