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Lucca

Lucca

Member Since 2015
Hey guys.. so i have a question. ive been struggling to get Lucca's diabetes under control for months. i check his level before i give him his insulin and adjust the amt accordingly.. but what do i do if its time for his shot but his reading is already good? I just checked and he is at 174 right now. i dont want it to drop low during the night so im not sure what to do. he got 5 units at 10:45am btw
 
You may have already given this information elsewhere, but what type of insulin is he on? And about how long has he been on it? If you can add that info to your signature too, it will mean that people don't have to keep asking you any time you have a question! :)
 
hi.. im sorry. im still trying to figure this site out. i will try to fill in as much info as possible. he is on humulin n and his bg has been running high again. hes been on insulin for about 6 months and still struggling. i was just reading on someone elses thread about not feeding 2 hrs before bg test? idk.. im so confused! i give him food whenever he wsnts it!
 
Insulin doses are adjusted based on the nadir, the lowest glucose post-shot.
Humulin NPH lasts roughly 6-8 hours in the cat.
 
@BJM , would you agree Lucca shouldn't shoot tonight since BG #'s are under 200?

@Lucca , see BJ's handy Glucometer Notes (in blue) in her signature line above.

Go to your profile and add in the Humulin info and dose in your signature line. Also indicate what food you are feeding. You'll want to aim for a low carb wet/canned food diet under 10%. See the Cat Food Nutritional Guide in my signature link below in blue.

You will want to limit portion size and feeding times. With Novolin (similar to Humulin, just a different manufacturer), I was told to feed CJ food 15 minutes to 30 minutes before shooting. Humulin is a short acting harsh insulin that doesn't last 12 hours. Your cat may not be getting the full benefit of a longer, more gentler insulin such as Lantus or Levermir or even ProZinc.

Be sure to have on hand honey, karo syrup, or high carb food in case BG #'s go too low.
 
Novolin/Humulin are fairly harsh insulins - @Cat Ma knows all about what Novolin can do! As he was under 200 before you fed, I wouldn't give a shot tonight as there is a risk that he could drop very low, very fast - 5 units is a fairly big dose too!
 
Lucca said:
hi.. im sorry. im still trying to figure this site out. i will try to fill in as much info as possible. he is on humulin n and his bg has been running high again. hes been on insulin for about 6 months and still struggling. i was just reading on someone elses thread about not feeding 2 hrs before bg test? idk.. im so confused! i give him food whenever he wsnts it!
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Good for you working hard to get Lucca's diabetes under control. When you say he is "running high" are you talking about his readings right before you give him his insulin? What are you feeding him? These are all important pieces of the puzzle.

The reason people don't feed 2 hours before a test is that in many, if not most, cats food will cause the blood sugar to rise. More so if it's higher carb dry food.

As BJM said, the dose is based on how low Lucca's blood sugar gets at the peak point through the cycle. This could be 3 or 4 or 6 or even longer - depends on the cat and the day. But that's why it is important that you get some testing in say 3 hours and again at 6 hours after the insulin shot. Does that make sense?
 
Brashworks said:
The reason people don't feed 2 hours before a test is that in many, if not most, cats food will cause the blood sugar to rise. More so if it's higher carb dry food.
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With Novolin/Humulin, feeding time should be 15 minutes to 30 minutes before shooting insulin.

Lantus protocols for feeding and testing are different.
 
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wow.. so overwhelming! my vet has me giving injections every 12 hrs. i was not checking his bg at home for the first several months but i knew he was dropping low. i was watching him die! i had to squirt honey into his mouth a few times (i had no karo syrup) so i started testing on my own.. i just do not understand all this info about the nadir? and preshot and omg! it is tooo much! i give him small amts of sheba canned food several times a day, im just glad he is eating bc when i was giving him to much insulin he wouldnt eat at all! he was practicly comatose all the time! hes doing better now but his bg is running high. it was 500
 
Can we get you started using our grid to record your glucose tests? It will help us give you better feedback. Instructions are here.

Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning, pre-test, shot) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening ,pre-shot, test)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

The nadir is the lowest glucose between shots. There is a general period when it will happen which is specific to the insulin being used and testing then helps make sure your cat doesn't go too low.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
i will definetly try.. i have a hard time on here bc im only using my cell phone. no comp at the moment.. i need the help believe me so if i can figure how to fill in the info i will. i am so grateful for the advice. ive been a total mess watching Lucca suffer. his bg was 527 at 10:30am
 
Lucca said:
wow.. so overwhelming! my vet has me giving injections every 12 hrs. i was not checking his bg at home for the first several months but i knew he was dropping low. i was watching him die! i had to squirt honey into his mouth a few times (i had no karo syrup) so i started testing on my own.. i just do not understand all this info about the nadir? and preshot and omg! it is tooo much! i give him small amts of sheba canned food several times a day, im just glad he is eating bc when i was giving him to much insulin he wouldnt eat at all! he was practicly comatose all the time! hes doing better now but his bg is running high. it was 500
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I understand how overwhelming this is since I was in your shoes not too long ago. A low carb diet is a must for diabetic cats. Some good choices of canned food under 10% carbs are Fancy Feast Classics, Evo, and some of the Wellness grain-free and some Core foods to name just a few. If you've been feeding your cat dry food, you'll need to transition Lucca off that. A good guide to transitioning kibble addicts off dry food is found in the right-hand side at http://catinfo.org/

Please see the Cat Food Nutritional Guide and look for canned food under 10%. I was able to get CJ off Novolin in less than 3 weeks by switching her to a low carb canned food diet. Not all cats go into remission with diet alone but yours may. Here's the link: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

Just saw your post that his BG this am was 527. It was 174 tonight. That tells me the Humulin may not be the best insulin for Lucca. He may do better on a more gentler, longer lasting insulin such as Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc.

Glad you are here so we can help you.
 
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Humulin NPH works the same as Novolin NPH and works better in dogs

Humulin R works the same as Novolin R and is used for short-acting purposes
 
CJ was on Novolin N. It works the same as Humulin N. They are short and harsh acting and at best, last 6 hours, maybe even up to 8 hours in cats. They work quickly and exit the body quickly. So Lucca isn't getting 12 hours of insulin; he's getting much less. An option would be to give Humulin every 8 hours but that is a tough schedule to follow.
 
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just, btw.. i was never given any instruction on bg testing, etc. my vet told me Luke's bg was still very high at each appt and she would increase his insulin.. on his last trip to the dr she had me giving him 6 units twice a day/every 12 hrs with a meal, even if he would only eat a tiny bit she said that counts. he was barely eating back than.. he was barely alive back than! so now i ck his bg in the morn, feed him and give him his shot but i also get up during the night and feed him if he asks for food. i have 2 other
 
Cat Ma said:
With Novolin/Humulin, feeding time should be 15 minutes to 30 minutes before shooting insulin.

Lantus protocols for feeding and testing are different.
Click to expand...

Indeed they are! Is the testing time different as well? My assumption was that the AM and PMPS readings should not be influenced by food if possible.

I had Genghis on a "harsh" insulin as well and definitely fed her a portion of her meal a half hour before shooting, but not testing.
 
Brashworks said:
Indeed they are! Is the testing time different as well? My assumption was that the AM and PMPS readings should not be influenced by food if possible.

I had Genghis on a "harsh" insulin as well and definitely fed her a portion of her meal a half hour before shooting, but not testing.
Click to expand...

Yes, testing is done before shooting. Food needs to be given with harsh insulins like Humulin/Novolin/Caninsulin about 30 minutes prior to giving insulin. So you were following the correct protocol when you had Genghis on Caninsulin.
 
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i can switch his wet food back to fancy feast no problem. i thought any wet food was ok. i want him to have whatever food he supposed to be on. i just didnt know :( im trying so hard but getting no where. his bg does that a lot, goes way up than way down. i write down everything in his notebook so ive got a record of all the numbers. thank you all
 
Testing:
1) Always test before giving insulin to make sure it is safe.
For now, your no shot level is 200 mg/dL on a human glucometer (230 for pet-specific); this will lower as you collect data around the middle of the cycle to know how low he is going.

2) Mid-cycle tests between shots - whenever possible, test around the nadir (lowest glucose level between shots) for your insulin, to see how low he's going. For Lantus, this often falls between +5 to +7 hours after the shot. For Humulin or Novolin NPH (aka 'N') this is around +3 to +5 for many cats. Some folks do this on weekends or set a clock for the middle of the night to get this test done as it helps determine dose adjustments. This number should be at or above 50 mg/dL on a human glucometer (68 mg/dL for pet-specific).

3) A before bed test is helpful in determining if you need to break out some higher carb food and steer the glucose level or go to bed with some peace of mind. Steering means giving 1-2 teaspoons of high carb gravy, waiting 30 minutes, and re-testing (repeating as needed) to make sure the glucose stays above 50 mg/dL.
 
I just read the Humulin primer and I can see it is different as it recommends feeding a full hour before shooting. I'm still not clear on whether you feed, test, shoot or test, feed, wait an hour, shoot.

The reason I brought it up was the OP said she fed Lucca anytime he wanted food but had read not to feed two hours prior to pre-shot test and I wondered if food was driving the higher pre-shot numbers.
 
Lucca said:
just, btw.. i was never given any instruction on bg testing, etc. my vet told me Luke's bg was still very high at each appt and she would increase his insulin.. on his last trip to the dr she had me giving him 6 units twice a day/every 12 hrs with a meal, even if he would only eat a tiny bit she said that counts. he was barely eating back than.. he was barely alive back than! so now i ck his bg in the morn, feed him and give him his shot but i also get up during the night and feed him if he asks for food. i have 2 other
Click to expand...

My vet never gave me instructions on BG testing, either. Just told me to come back in a month or two to do a glucose curve. The day I learned how to test CJ's BG at home was the day I learned she was hypo. So glad you are home testing. Vet BG readings are usually higher, especially with a stressed cat. You need to check BG levels in the am and pm before giving insulin. Good that you are keeping a record of Lucca's #s. That will help when you set up your spreadsheet so others can see what Lucca's #s are and can help advise you on dose and whether to give insulin or not.

Lucca said:
i can switch his wet food back to fancy feast no problem. i thought any wet food was ok. i want him to have whatever food he supposed to be on. i just didnt know :( im trying so hard but getting no where. his bg does that a lot, goes way up than way down. i write down everything in his notebook so ive got a record of all the numbers. thank you all
Click to expand...

No, not every wet food is okay. Many are very high in carbs. Is your cat still underweight?
 
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1) Test
2) Feed
3) For NPH wait 30 60 minutes. For Vetsulin/Caninsulin wait 30-60 minutes. For ProZinc, PZI, Lantus, and Levemir, wait 15 minutes or less.
4) shoot
 
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Brashworks said:
I just read the Humulin primer and I can see it is different as it recommends feeding a full hour before shooting. I'm still not clear on whether you feed, test, shoot or test, feed, wait an hour, shoot.

The reason I brought it up was the OP said she fed Lucca anytime he wanted food but had read not to feed two hours prior to pre-shot test and I wondered if food was driving the higher pre-shot numbers.
Click to expand...

Yes, the Humulin primer does say feed an hour before. But it is such a fast acting insulin. See BJM's post above.
 
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BJM said:
1) Test
2) Feed
3) For NPH wait 30 minutes. Fr Vetsulin/Caninsulin wait 30-60 minutes. For ProZinc, PZI, Lantus, and Levemir, wait no more than 15 minutes or less.
4) shoot
Click to expand...

@BJM the Humulin primer says to wait an hour. Looks like it needs to be updated to 30 minutes because your information is more accurate.
 
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ya'll got me so confused! lol i just checked his bg again and it is up to 254
it was 178 three hours ago.. so should i give him insulin now? maybe like 1.5 units? ughhh.. sorry im such a mess. it is just not clicking in my brain!
 
I'm not familiar enough with your insulin to advise you (we use Lantus) but my first thought is that you're tired, stressed out and could use a good night's sleep, so it may be best to just skip tonight and get back on schedule in the morning

He'll probably be high, but you'll at least have a good night's sleep behind you and be ready to fight the good fight again tomorrow
 
I agree with Chris & China to skip the dose tonight. I am not familiar with adjusting the dose for Humulin because CJ went hypo and then into remission.

Let us know what Lucca's BG # is in the morning.
 
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@BJM, I am wondering why the shorter acting NPH calls for waiting 60 minutes after feeding to shoot while the longer acting insulins (Lantus, Levermir and ProZinc) call for waiting no more than 15 minutes. When I was giving CJ Novolin, I was told to wait no more than 15-30 minutes because the NPH was fast acting and CJ had to have food in her body for the insulin to work effectively. If I had waited 60 minutes to give Novolin, I'd have been giving it on an empty stomach.
 
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@Cat Ma
Cat Ma said:
I am wondering why the shorter acting NPH calls for waiting 60 minutes after feeding to shoot while the longer acting insulins (Lantus, Levermir and ProZinc) call for waiting no more than 15 minutes.
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I can't address your feeding concerns when using NPH or Prozinc as I do not have hands on experience. However, with Lantus and Levemir, you have until onset to get food on board. Typically, Lantus onsets around +2 and Levemir at around +4, but ECID. That said, most Lantus and Levemir users test, feed, and shoot within 15 minutes.
 
With the harsh insulins, giving the food some lead time to get in and start bolstering the glucose helps buffer the drop. You don't need that with the more gentle, long acting insulins and its OK to let the cat graze or to feed mini-meals.
 
Looks like my vet was giving me feeding instructions based on the long-lasting insulins even though the only one they were familiar with and had me using for CJ was Novolin!
 
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