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Overwhelmed cat owner

Overwhelmed cat owner

Member Since 2015
My 15 yr old Tabby was diagnosed with diabetes a few months ago. We have poured out tons of money, but she isn't getting better. Even with insulin and a special diabetic diet, she is constantly hungry. A few weeks ago, we seemed to have gotten it under control. She was gaining weight and seemed to be getting back to her old self and then she started peeing and drinking tons and her level went back up to the 400's. We increased her insulin, but not seeing any results. she takes 1.5 units of Pro Zinc Insulin 2x daily, and eats a can of Pro Plan DM in the am and pm. She went from about 11 pounds down to 6.5. I'm happy I found this web site. Would appreciate any help that you all can give us.

Thanks!
I
 
Welcome! Well, you have a mild, long lasting insulin, so that's a good step. I looked on the food chart that a vet put together and ProPlan really varies in carbs - from 5% to 25%. We suggest foods in the 8% range or even lower. Here is the chart. Go down to the P's and find ProPlan. carbohydrates is the third column over.

http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

The third thing we advocate is testing at home. We know that many cats are stressed at the vet so values taken there can be higher than those at home. With ProZinc, it's great to get a pre shot number (to be sure the dose you are planning to give is safe) and a number 5-7 hours after the shot, to see how low the insulin is taking the cat. We have lots of videos and suggestions on home testing, if you'd like to learn how.

We put together a protocol for ProZinc. It is in blue in my signature.

Let us know how we can help!
 
Thanks for your response. I will definitely discuss the food chart with my vet and see if we can find some cheaper and more filling alternatives for her. We do test at home, however we only test at shot times. We have not tested her 5-7 hrs after the shot. Honestly, I am still unsure how to understand the glucose chart. When she was first diagnosed, she was getting up to 4 units per shot. We changed her food (she was eating Royal Canin diabetic food- which our vet said was not giving her enough calories to DM) , and then her numbers got too low (in the 50's). So, our vet adjusted her dose to .5 units and she was doing okay with that for a few weeks. At her last visit, she had even gained some ounces. Then, all of sudden her numbers went up again and she started peeing and drinking a lot. we only tested when her behavior indicated that it was needed. When we noticed the peeing, drinking, we tested her and it was 407. We tested again the next morning and it was 437. Our vet then raised the units to 1.5, which is where she is now-- but still peeing and drinking a lot and she's always hungry and begging. We only feed her one can in the morning and one in the evening. But it's so hard watching her hungry and begging. We have an appointment on Monday for a fructosamine test. I've also noticed the awkwardness in her back legs, which I will mention to our vet on Monday as well.

I appreciate your help!
 
Does kitty eat the whole can in one sitting or graze a while? Just curious why you are only feeding one can twice a day. When kitty's blood sugars are high, they can not process food correctly and are inevitably starving to death even though they are eating. Would you consider feeding more? Mini meals can be helpful in regulation.
 
If she were mine, I would want more information about her glucose levels. There is a pheonema called bouncing. When her body perceives a lower number than it is used to, it releases extra glucose. If she is going lower mid cycle, it is possible that she then bounces back up for the next shot. Getting some tests in that 5-7 hour after the shot timeframe could help you see if that is the issue. Adding more insulin makes the bouncing worse. A fructosamine test will give you an average of her levels for the past few weeks, but won't tell you if she is sometimes low mid cycle.

It sounds like she may have neuropathy. It can be improved by better glucose levels. Sometimes Methyl B12 helps also. Here is some info:

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Neuropathy
 
We give Brandy one can at each meal cause that's what our vet told us to feed her. She devours it as soon as she gets it, and would gladly eat more. I know her body doesn't process the food right when the levels are high so would feeding her more help? At least over the weekend, until she gets to the vet Monday morning? Previous to her diagnosis, we let her eat as she pleased. She was a grazer. The vet told us not to let her graze and only give her the can at mealtimes. I will gladly give her more, if it will help.

We have never tested mid-cycle, but what you say makes sense. I will do that this weekend, and we will have those numbers to give to our vet on Monday.

She was tested for an infection when she was first diagnosed and given an antibiotic for a UTI. I am wondering if that might be what's causing her present trouble. Perhaps she has another one. We did change her litter a few weeks ago- could that cause a UTI????

I will check out the website for Neuropathy. I am not familiar with Methyl B12. Perhaps that might help until we get her BG levels adjusted.

Thanks so much!
 
MethylB12 is a specific form of B-12 vitamin. It can be found over the counter. It does not affect glucose levels; it helps with neuropathy.
 
Doesn't look like bouncing then. There are a couple choices:

Switch over to a low carb food, 8% or lower, and see if that beings down the levels. I would do this first, as it can bring down numbers fast and you don't want that combined with a dose increase.

Start being more aggressive with the dosing. You could increase to 2 units, on a cycle where you can definitely monitor that nadir number. Hold that dose for 3 cycles and raise again. At some point, you should hit a place where you see a drop.

Change the insulin. I would argue it's a little early for that. 1.5 is not a large dose. But another insulin might work better. levemir is a mild, long lasting insulin that is supposed to sting less with higher doses and it has a longer, flatter cycle.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Welcome! Well, you have a mild, long lasting insulin, so that's a good step. I looked on the food chart that a vet put together and ProPlan really varies in carbs - from 5% to 25%. We suggest foods in the 8% range or even lower. Here is the chart. Go down to the P's and find ProPlan. carbohydrates is the third column over.

http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf
Click to expand...


Pro Plan DM is the relabeling of Purina DM, the old prescription DM - 3%. Whether they are reformulating their prescription foods as they relabel I don't know, but all prescription Purina is getting relabeled to "Pro Plan". The stuff in Dr Lisa's chart under Pro Plan in the old retail Pro Plan foods, the DM will be under Purina unless/until she updates the charts.
 
I appreciate all the feedback. It certainly helped me eliminate a lot of things. I think I feel clearer about what the problem is.

I think we have eliminated the food as the problem and the insulin as the problem. Also, bouncing doesn't seem to be the issue. I"m wondering if changing her litter could be the issue. We switched from Fresh Start to pine litter. We've never used pine litter before. I'm wondering if that could possibly have caused an UTI. That's about when her BG levels, peeing and drinking started to change.

I will increase her dosage to 2 units tonight, and we are giving her a can and a half at meals now (an extra can a day). Hopefully that will last her through the weekend. I will certainly let you know what the vet says Monday morning.


Thanks! I appreciate all the help!
 
I'm hoping someone is up at this early hour and can give us some help! My husband woke to find Brandy on the floor and unable to move her back legs-- well, unable to stand on them. We tested her, and her BG level was 71. I gave her karo syrup and and some food. I've seen the BG level go down like that, so I'm not panicking about that but never seen her legs do that! I've got about 3 hours till the vet opens and then I'm going to rush her in. Can anyone tell me anything about the legs- I mean I'm sure it's neoropathy, but will it be okay???
 
Do the legs or feet feel cold? Is she howling in pain? If yes to either, please go to an emergency vet now and do not wait.
Either of those indicates a blood clot. A blood clot may cause paralysis. It is usually quite painful.

Or, perhaps she may have gone to low last night and suffered nerve damage. That may or may not resolve.

The glucose should remain above 50 mg/dL on a human meter and 60 mg/dL on a pet meter.
Without test data between shots showing it is safe, do not shoot below 200 mg/dL.
 
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Sorry for not responding sooner. I wanted to get all the test results back first. Good news! We figured out what was causing her BG levels to get out of whack. It's not a UTI, but her kidneys. Her numbers were slightly elevated. This is causing constipation (which we had noticed, but we thought it was because the vet changed her food). So, we now have a calcium powder (I forget the name of it) to mix in her food and that should take care of it. If she is still having constipation, we may need to add a little canned pumpkin to her food as well (pumpkin- who knew???). And, no neuropathy. She thinks she may have some arthritis setting in. We may have to add some pain meds for that if we feel that she needs it. Her BG numbers are within the normal range now. And she seems to be behaving like her normal self again. It was 285 this morning. Phew!!!! Thank you all so much for helping us through our crisis this weekend!
 
Good to hear you got some answers and that everything is treatable! There are a some glucosamine supplements for cats that might help. Mitz gets an Adequate shot and our holistic vet recommended trying Cosequin as well. So glad Brandy is doing better. She's a gorgeous girl!
 
I have 2 questions- I'm sure she's getting enough to eat with a can of DM in the am, and a can of DM in the p.m. but she misses her snacks. She is still trying to eat all day. Is this normal, or does this behavior subside after a while. I'm a sucker- those little sad eyes get to me.

2. We love our kitty, but this stuff is so expensive and it's reeking havoc on our budget. Any suggestions on how to find all of her supplies etc. cheaper?
 
To save money, we advocate feeding over the counter foods. There is nothing special about DM - there is nothing "prescription" in its ingredients. Most of us feed Fancy Feast or Friskies pates. That alone would save you a lot. And yes, she could certainly have snacks during the day. Most people feed mini meals - divide the amount you feed into 4 meals or so. It helps with their hunger and should help support the pancreas. (Until they are well regulated, they really are hungry. Their body is not processing the food efficiently. Another thing that might help with her wanting to eat is to add warm water to the food, making a gravy and spreading it out on a plate. It takes her longer to eat that way and it seems like more.

If you are testing at home, you save a lot on vet fructosamine tests and curves. Your data is more accurate as she is not under stress. Once you have daily data, you can figure out the fructosamine as it is the average level over 2 weeks.
 
Welcome Overwhelmed Cat Owner. I am new also to the forum and these people really know their stuff. I am trying to settle into the whole "diabetic cat owner" thing too. We can do this!
 
That sounds wonderful! Can I use any friskies or fancy feast pates, or are their specific kinds that are better? And, I can do 4 mini-meals with only giving insulin 2x daily? How often do you test?

Do you all buy your insulin, syringes, and strips from your vets or are their cheaper places?

Thanks so much!!!
 
I tests, most days, five to six times. More on the weekends, when I am home. And yes, the mini-meals are fine with only shooting twice a day. My understanding about the food is that the poultry ones are better. And stay away from the Friskies mixed grill.

I do the gravy thing with mine and they love it. Plus gives them extra water!
 
testing 5-6 times per day, really? We only test at meal time, unless we notice something. Why so often?
We've already bought the pet meter, so I guess we'll stick with that.
I will get the syringes from Walmart and will definitely start using the friskies.

Thank you guys so much! I'm sure Brandy will like this eating pattern much better.
 
Testing:
1) Always test before giving insulin to make sure it is safe.
For now, your no shot level is 200 mg/dL on a human glucometer (230 for pet-specific); this will lower as you collect data around the middle of the cycle to know how low he is going.

2) Mid-cycle tests between shots - whenever possible, test around the nadir (lowest glucose level between shots) for your insulin, to see how low he's going. For Lantus, this often falls between +5 to +7 hours after the shot; for ProZinc it may be closer to +5 hours post-shot. Some folks do this on weekends or set a clock for the middle of the night to get this test done as it helps determine dose adjustments. This number should be at or above 50 mg/dL on a human glucometer (68 mg/dL for pet-specific).

3) A before bed test is helpful in determining if you need to break out some higher carb food and steer the glucose level or go to bed with some peace of mind. Steering means giving 1-2 teaspoons of high carb gravy, waiting 30 minutes, and re-testing (repeating as needed) to make sure the glucose stays above 50 mg/dL.
 
Overwhelmed cat owner said:
testing 5-6 times per day, really? We only test at meal time, unless we notice something. Why so often?
We've already bought the pet meter, so I guess we'll stick with that.
I will get the syringes from Walmart and will definitely start using the friskies.

Thank you guys so much! I'm sure Brandy will like this eating pattern much better.
Click to expand...


A perfect example of why testing between shots is important is my Tuxie tonight. I use the AT2 pet meter so the values are a bit higher than a human meter. At PM shot he was 319 and at +5 he was 43. The rest of the day's tests did not show that he might do such a big drop...it just came out of the blue. Doing shots at mid cycle will help you to know how far your kitty drops
 
I'd suggest you start with every pre shot (so you know the number is above 200 and safe to shoot) and a number 5-7 hours after the shot, when you can, so you know how low the insulin is taking her. Then once in a while, do a curve, testing every 2-3 hours and get a real good picture of how the insulin is working.

Get the U100 syringes BUT you Must use the Conversion Chart. Put it up where you give the shot and check it each time you shoot.

Have you seen the ProZinc protocol? It is in blue in my signature.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
A perfect example of why testing between shots is important is my Tuxie tonight. I use the AT2 pet meter so the values are a bit higher than a human meter. At PM shot he was 319 and at +5 he was 43. The rest of the day's tests did not show that he might do such a big drop...it just came out of the blue. Doing shots at mid cycle will help you to know how far your kitty drops
Click to expand...


Wow! That's good to know! Thanks.
 
Overwhelmed cat owner said:
How do you do the meal times? Her usual times for meals and injections were 6:30 and 6:30. So how should I spread out the mealtimes?
Click to expand...
You can do what works best for you. Divide the amount you are now feeding into the number of meals you want to feed. It'd be good to feed with the shot like you are doing. The other thing is to stop feeding 2 hours before the am/pm preshot test so those tests aren't food influenced. Maybe am/pm/ +4 and +8 - whatever works with your schedule.
 
I bought my ProZinc at www.valleyvet.com. The vet will need to call or fax in a prescription and then they'll overnight the insulin to you in a styrofoam box with freezer packs to keep it cool ($94.95 for a 10 ml bottle and no cost for shipping). I also got my U40 syringes there (a box of 100 is $22 and they have both 28 and 29 gauge; I don't remember how much the shipping was for the syringes). The Walmart syringes might be cheaper, I don't know how much those cost.
 
Wow, that's a lot cheaper than we pay for ProZinc! I will look into getting our ProZince there! Thanks!!! I only pay 18.00$ for our syringes though.

I've started giving her the 4 meals and it's going very well! She actually seems satisfied now! I still give her a full can in the a.m. and p.m but I also added about 1/4 cup with the gravy water for the other 2 feedings.

I posted a few weeks ago when her numbers were really high- turns out it was her kidneys. She's been on aluminum hydroxide gel. Our vet told us that if she started having trouble with constipation to add a bit of pumpkin to her meals- which I did, but didn't help much. She said if that didn't work, then 1/8 tsp of miralax. That works! Has anyone had any experience with kidney troubles? Can she take miralax indefinitely?

Last question, should I mix the Friskies pate with the DM and make a gradual change?

Her numbers have been staying in the 200 range since we've added the extra meals and the miralax.

Thanks so much for all your help!
 
It sounds like both of you are doing well. Yes, Miralax can be given indefinitely. Lots of people here use it. Is the DM dry? If so, I would change over slowly to avoid tummy issues. If wet, you can take it back and say he won't eat it and get your money back. Purina has a money back guarantee: just say he won't eat it. Then you can spend that money on the cheaper stuff.

Putting her numbers ina spreadsheet will really help you, your vet and us, when you need immediate help. Here are the directions:


http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/

It's a little tricky. If you need help, just ask.
 
I like the spreadsheet idea. I will get it started this weekend.

She's eating the wet DM, so we'll start on the Friskies right away.

Will keep you posted!

Thanks so much!
 
Overwhelmed cat owner said:
That sounds wonderful! Can I use any friskies or fancy feast pates, or are their specific kinds that are better? And, I can do 4 mini-meals with only giving insulin 2x daily? How often do you test?

Do you all buy your insulin, syringes, and strips from your vets or are their cheaper places?

Thanks so much!!!
Click to expand...

I use Friskies Pate which from everything I know is pretty good stuff and I pay $25 for 48 cans, so it's pretty cheap. Basically you test pre-shot, and at her 'low' point on the insulin range, which I believe is usually +6 to +9 hours.

I buy my syringes from ADW diabetes.com, though I heard Wal-Mart has them too. Insulin I get from VetRX Direct but I use Lantus, not sure about your brand. I use lancets and syringes for my bayer contour next monitor from Amazon, which is by far the cheapest I've found.

I'd say about $300 spend will last me 3-6 months with Luna, depending on her insulin needs. I'm probably overestimating too. Don't buy anything at the vet, you can find it all cheaper elsewhere.
 
Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning pre-shot test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening pre-shot)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
Thanks for the tip on the ProZinc It's $30 less than I had to pay. If heaven forbid I ever need it again....
 
I just checked PetRXdirect and they are $113 for a vial of Prozinc . A little cheaper than my vet but not significantly. Also, if no one else gave you a heads up, getting him on a lower-carb food can make an immediate and very significant difference in his BG levels, all by itself. Be prepared for the possibility of a hypo incident. MAKE SURE YOU PRE-TEST BEFORE SHOOTING!!! And have your emergency supplies ready just in case.
 
Thanks for all of your help! I just bought a case of Friskies pate (32 cans) for 13.00$- as opposed to paying 47.00$ for 24 cans of DM. That's a BIG difference. I checked out the web site for ADW Diabetics.com. It is much cheaper. I will be ordering syringes and glucose strips from them soon!
'
I have also started doing the 4 feedings a day and mixing her food with water. That too, has made a HUGE difference! She seems full and satisfied now. Our vet told us that it was best to only feed 2x daily, but I'm not finding that to work for our cat. She was ALWAYS hungry like that- no matter how much we gave her at one setting.

I have a few more questions...
I tried to do the publish the spreadsheet. Hopefully, it shows up. Our vet told us that with ProZinc, we don't have to do a lot of home testing but I'm finding that not to be so with our cat. Her numbers fluctuate. I agree with you all as I don't feel comfortable giving her shots without knowing her BG level.

We are also noticing a pattern that I'm hoping you guys can help me with: (1), her numbers seem to drop at night. (2) her BM's seem to correlate with her numbers as well. She has kidney issues. We give her aluminum hydroxide 2x daily (1/8 tsp) for that. We were told that this may cause constipation. Brandy was having issues with constipation even before this so naturally, she still is. Our vet told us to add pumpkin to her food, which I do but I still have to giver her Miralax (1/8 tsp) daily. This helps a lot. But even with that, there are still days when her stool is hard, and then she will have a huge BM (I know, not the most pleasant conversation- sorry!) and then her BG numbers drop and she bottoms.- Well, I think she bottoms. Our sweet doggy woke us the other night at 3:00 am. cause the cat was acting weird! We tested her, and her BG was 65- our vet said this should not be "bottoming", but she had all the classic symptoms. She was shuffling (walking on the hocks), walking around in circles- very confused. She walked behind a door, and couldn't figure out how to get out. We tried to get her to eat. She smelled the food, and seemed to want to eat but couldn't coordinate herself to do so, even when my hubby put the food up to her mouth. So, we gave her karo syrup- a tsp. and then retested her in 1/2 hr and she was in the 90's but still shuffling and howling and confused. She finally settled down about 5:15 a.m. and she could eat. Her BG had gone up to 170. That evening her BG was 376. The back legs improved a lot but she still seemed to be having difficulty, especially the right one. She hardly walked at all. Today, she was at 385 (I fed her some before bed, I was scared she might drop again). She's walking around fine.

My hubby and have been brainstorming trying to figure out the pattern. We are wondering if dehydration might be the issue. Perhaps when she has the big poop, it leaves her dehydrated and it causes her numbers to drop???? I added a lot more water to her food today...

Also, with the legs, our vet didn't think it was neuropathy, but it seems like it to me. Would it hurt to give her the Methyl B12 anyway?

Any thoughts????
 
Also, how do you know how much insulin to give? She is supposed to get 1.0 unit, but I've been givng her .5 cause her numbers had been low in the a.m.
 
Your spreadsheet isn't showing up. Did you say to Share with Anyone with the link? It's on the RH side of your copy of the spreadsheet. On the LH top, choose Publish to the Web. Copy the URL that comes up and paste it in your signature on this forum. Then we should be able to see it.
Overwhelmed cat owner said:
Thanks for all of your help! I just bought a case of Friskies pate (32 cans) for 13.00$- as opposed to paying 47.00$ for 24 cans of DM. That's a BIG difference. I checked out the web site for ADW Diabetics.com. It is much cheaper. I will be ordering syringes and glucose strips from them soon!
'
I have also started doing the 4 feedings a day and mixing her food with water. That too, has made a HUGE difference! She seems full and satisfied now. Our vet told us that it was best to only feed 2x daily, but I'm not finding that to work for our cat. She was ALWAYS hungry like that- no matter how much we gave her at one setting.

I have a few more questions...
I tried to do the publish the spreadsheet. Hopefully, it shows up. Our vet told us that with ProZinc, we don't have to do a lot of home testing but I'm finding that not to be so with our cat. Her numbers fluctuate. I agree with you all as I don't feel comfortable giving her shots without knowing her BG level.

We are also noticing a pattern that I'm hoping you guys can help me with: (1), her numbers seem to drop at night. (2) her BM's seem to correlate with her numbers as well. She has kidney issues. We give her aluminum hydroxide 2x daily (1/8 tsp) for that. We were told that this may cause constipation. Brandy was having issues with constipation even before this so naturally, she still is. Our vet told us to add pumpkin to her food, which I do but I still have to giver her Miralax (1/8 tsp) daily. This helps a lot. But even with that, there are still days when her stool is hard, and then she will have a huge BM (I know, not the most pleasant conversation- sorry!) and then her BG numbers drop and she bottoms.- Well, I think she bottoms. Our sweet doggy woke us the other night at 3:00 am. cause the cat was acting weird! We tested her, and her BG was 65- our vet said this should not be "bottoming", but she had all the classic symptoms. She was shuffling (walking on the hocks), walking around in circles- very confused. She walked behind a door, and couldn't figure out how to get out. We tried to get her to eat. She smelled the food, and seemed to want to eat but couldn't coordinate herself to do so, even when my hubby put the food up to her mouth. So, we gave her karo syrup- a tsp. and then retested her in 1/2 hr and she was in the 90's but still shuffling and howling and confused. She finally settled down about 5:15 a.m. and she could eat. Her BG had gone up to 170. That evening her BG was 376. The back legs improved a lot but she still seemed to be having difficulty, especially the right one. She hardly walked at all. Today, she was at 385 (I fed her some before bed, I was scared she might drop again). She's walking around fine.

My hubby and have been brainstorming trying to figure out the pattern. We are wondering if dehydration might be the issue. Perhaps when she has the big poop, it leaves her dehydrated and it causes her numbers to drop???? I added a lot more water to her food today...

Also, with the legs, our vet didn't think it was neuropathy, but it seems like it to me. Would it hurt to give her the Methyl B12 anyway?

Any thoughts????
Click to expand...


Often cats drop into lower ranges at night. Is she eating overnight? If not, you might leave out some food for her. A timed feeder works great for this as you can set it to close 2 hours before the am pre test.

It's normal that her Bg bounced up after her hypo. (It does sound like that is what it was). It can be that when her body sensed a level lower than it was used to, it released extra sugar and so her levels went up. The karo also makes the levels jump up. It sounds like she may be a kitty more sensitive to lower levels than others; most cats here don't have much a reaction until they hit the 40s and below. One of those "every cat is different" things. It's a good thing for you to know.

Usually constipation raises the bg levels. Dehydration can definitely lower them.

The Methyl 12 is not absorbed by the body if not needed. I would definitely try some. We think the leg weakness is helped by it and by getting into more regulated numbers.

Once I can see the spreadsheet and her levels, I may have an idea about dosing. proZinc is very flexible so if one pre shot is consistently lower, you can shoot different doses. But you want to be sure you have enough data to figure that out first.
 
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