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Vicki

Member Since 2015
Hello!
I just started doing home testing last night (3/16), and had a situation this morning where my cat, Lizzy's glucose was lower than I expected it to be. I lowered the dose of Lantus that the vet prescribed from 2u to .5u because I was worried. If anyone has a chance to check the spreadsheet - any advice would be appreciated. I will do pre-shot testing for this evening in a couple of hours and will probably be back for more advice. I plan on doing a curve, but am waiting for the arrival of test strips to add to my supply.
Thanks!!
Vicki
 
Hi and welcome to LL. You have come to the right place. Two units is a lot to start. Most start with 1.0 init every 12 hours. We decrease in increments of .25. I don't give dosing advice but someone should be on soon to set out the correct dose for Elizabeth. It" s great that you are home testing!
 
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I'm glad you're home testing to keep Elizabeth safe, and you have your spreadsheet set up. Good job.
Don't forget the treats or extra lovings after every test whether successful or not.
You're going to want to be consistent in the dosing, so I would try to decide if you're going to stick with .5 or not and give that dose a few days or a week to see how low it brings her (nadir tests around +6). Good luck.
 
Hi Vicki! Welcome to the Lantus/Lev group. You're off to a good start.

I looked at Elizabeth's spreadsheet and am thinking you might be seeing varying blood sugar numbers partially because you've still got dry food in the picture. Dry food can significantly increase blood sugar (like by 100's of points) and then it can stay high for as much as another day from the dry food. We had one member who was sure her cat wasn't eating the dry food her other kitties were getting . . . but when dry food left the entire house, her cat went from 5.5u of insulin to remission in one very long day. If you can transition her to only low carb canned food, you have the option of following the Tight Regulation Protocol. If she continues to have dry food, you'll want to follow the Start Low Go Slow method. There's more below on both of those. The reason that people encourage diabetic cats to only have low carb canned food or raw is because the lower carbs is less of a burden on the pancreas of a diabetic cat.

One more thought - I see you're using an AlphaTrak. All of our documents give blood sugar numbers using human glucometers. The ATs measure about 30% higher than human glucometers. People use human glucometers for a couple of reasons - one is the strips are readily available, they are accurate and match our documents, and the cost of the strips is a fraction of the AT strips. Even though you no doubt just bought the AT, you'll recover the cost in savings in the cost of strips in no time. One AT strip costs about the same as 4 or more human glucometer strips. Many people buy Relion meters from Walmart, or Arkray generic meters through www.americandiabeteswholesale.com. There are many tricks to saving money if you want people to make suggestions.

Some of us wrote a little blurb to help people get started - maybe it will have some info in it that's helpful to you. I'd encourage you to keep posting, keep reading and asking questions. People will be glad to teach you what you need to know to help Elizabeth.


Welcome to Lantus and Lev land – the best place you probably never wanted to be! If you are like most of us, if this is your first few weeks of trying to wrap your head around the fact that your kitty has diabetes, you’ve no doubt been terrified, in tears, in a state of shock, and completely overwhelmed. Don’t worry. It gets easier. It really does.

None of us here are veterinary professionals but many of us have been working with our cat’s diabetes for a long time. Even those of us who have been here for a short time are here to help. This is a wonderfully supportive community.

There are a few first steps. We firmly believe that home testing is the best way to keep your cat safe. We keep a record of our cat’s blood glucose (BG) data on a spreadsheet (SS) which you can create using these instructions: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/. If you’ve not mastered home testing, we’re happy to offer suggestions or you may want to spend some time on the Health board mastering the basics of testing, low carb diet, and getting your SS set up. We’re happy to help you with those things, but you should be aware that this is a busy board and if there’s an emergency, everyone’s attention goes to helping the caregiver and his/her kitty.

Once you’ve got a handle on the basics, you will have the option of following the Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) method for managing your cat’s diabetes. You don’t have to stick with whichever approach you initially choose but it is helpful to give your choice a chance so you can evaluate the results fairly.

The Tight Regulation protocol was developed based upon the premise that a cat's pancreas may be able to heal and return to producing insulin if the cat's BG is kept in a normal range (i.e., 50-120}. Caregivers following this protocol adjust insulin doses following the protocol guidelines to aim for that range. Basic information on the TR is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/. The advantage of this approach is that it is based on research published in a leading veterinary journal and has an admirable track record of getting cats who are within the first year since diagnosis into remission.

The Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) approach has caregivers start with an initial dose based upon the BG at diagnosis and whether kitty has been transitioned to a wet low carb diet, hold that dose for a week or two while testing for ketones regularly, being consistent with food and testing before shooting every 12 hours. Once a week a curve is done (test every 2 hours for one cycle) to check for the lowest point. the low number in that curve determines any dose change for the following week. This approach was the original method used in the FDMB prior to the TR protocol. It is an alternate approach if TR is not the right fit for you or your kitty. Basic information on the SLGS approach is here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/.

Both approaches require that you test at pre-shot times and do your best to test at least once each 12-hour cycle. Lantus and Lev dosing is based on the lowest number in the cycle (i.e., the nadir) so getting at least one spot check is important to guide your dosing decisions.

If you are switching to lantus or levemir from any other insulin, please post for suggestions on the starting dose before you change insulins. You should also get your vet’s recommendation.

Amy&Trixie, Dyana&(GA)J.D., Julie&(GA) Punkin, Marje&Gracie, Sandy&Black Kitty, Sienne&Gabby, Wendy&Neko
 
When you get a chance, read over the sticky posts at the top of this forum. They'll explain a lot about using Lantus.
 
Just did her PM pre-shot testing and she's BG 230. Do I stay a .5U or go back to 2U?
 
Lantus isn't based upon preshot numbers - the dose is decided by how low it can take a cat. If you want to follow the Start Low Go Slow method - which is the only dosing method option available to you if she's eating dry food - you would start at 1.0u. From the SLGS page:

Starting Dose
  • 1u BID if kitty is not on a wet/canned low carb diet
If you plan to continue giving dry food, I would give her 1u per shot and stay with it for the first week, unless she goes below 90 on a human glucometer (so roughly 120 on an AT.)
 
Julie provided great information.

One additional suggestion for your to consider. Since Lantus and Lev dosing is based on the lowest point of the cycle (the nadir), you want to try to get tests during the PM cycle as well as the AM cycle. Even just one test before you go to bed will provide a great deal of insight into Elizabeth's numbers.
 
Thank you the information - it's all very helpful.

Elizabeth was initially boarded at the vet on 2/16 with numbers in the 400's and started at a dose of 1u, which is appropriate according to the weight calculations. However, the dose was increased to 2u bid on 2/17 and she has been on that since.(she was boarded for 10 days while I was out of town and her initial treatment was started at the vet)

Yesterday morning when I had the 161 BG reading I was nervous about giving her 2u and gave .5u. Now I realize the sliding scale does not pertain to Lantus.

Last night her BG was 230, and I gave her 1u (probably should have been 2u) and this morning her BG is 327. This morning with 327BG I went back to the 2u. This is such a learning process, and I now realize that the type of insulin can make a difference in how it is given and adjusted, and because she is on Lantus I need to keep her at 2u bid for several days and then evaluate.

I will keep reading and considering all the advice you are sending, as well as speaking to the vet. Just to clarify, as I think some have misunderstood - I would never increase her dose without speaking to the vet, and he is being very conservative with increases. I was asking here what the thoughts are on decreasing the dose according to her BG reading. Right now it appears I should have stuck with the 2u bid? Confirmation anyone?

****I do have a very important question about the Sticky Notes....unless otherwise noted, should I assume that the numbers in these articles are when using a human glucometer and that the AlphaTrak 2 that I am using means adding 30% to the numbers in the articles? I notice in BJM's Glucometer Reference Notes, she makes the distinction****

Vicki
 
AMPS BG 327 and +6 BG 75. (Alpha Trak 2) Any thoughts on this? She has eaten very little since her 2u this AM. Does that have something to do with it?
Thanks!!!
 
As a general rule, food effects BG. The lower the carbs, the less the effect but food pretty much can be an influence unless insulin is counterbalancing the food or your kitty's pancreas is kicking in and producing it's own insulin. In these situations, numbers go down. Most foods contain some carbs. Carbs are broken down into sugars, hence the effect on BG. If you've given a shot and your cat's not eating, there's no food on board to offset the effect of the insulin. Thus, numbers drop.

As to your question about the drop from 327 to a +6 of 75, clearly the insulin is doing something! It's hard to interpret what exactly is going on given the number of adjustments you've been making. What I would suggest though is that you keep a close eye on Elizabeth's numbers if you are going to stick with the 2.0u dose. Please get a test at +2 or +3 this evening so you can not worry whether her numbers are plummeting overnight. Likewise, when you saw that 75, I would have encouraged you to get another test just to be sure which direction the numbers were going.

FWIW, many of us do not rely on our vets to help us with dosing. That's not to say you shouldn't listen to your vet. You need to do what you feel is the right thing for your cat.
 
Right on the numbers dropping without Elizabeth having eaten much of anything. She did eat - but not much. A tablespoon or a bit more of her wet food and about 10 tiny pieces of her dry food (both Hill's m/d). Elizabeth does most of her eating after the PM shot and before the AM test. She doesn't eat much between the AM and PM shot. I will try the +2 or +3 this evening. And I will remember to test again if I get a number with a big discrepancy. Thanks!!!
 
You really don't want her to eat 2 hours prior to shot time. Feeding too close to when you'll be shooting can inflate your pre-shot numbers and you'd end up shooting a number that's giving you false confidence.
 
Need advice, please!

Today Elizabeth's AMPS was BG 327 and I gave her 2u of Lantus.

At +7 she was BG 75.

Between +7 and now (5 hours later), she ate 1/8 cup of Hill's dry d/m and 1-2 teaspoons of Hill's wet d/m.

Now at PMPS she is BG 103.

Her SS is updated. She usually eats the majority of her food between midnight and 8am.

I have no idea what to do about her insulin dose and shot...? :confused: To remind you, I use Alpha Trak 2.

Advice would be appreciated!!! Thank you!!
 
As a new Lantus user, we generally recommend you not shoot below 230 mg/dL on an AlphaTrak, until you have test data showing it is safe.
Let me take a look at what you've got.


Ah. I see the problem. You change the dose based on the pre-shot tests.
Never do that with Lantus.

If you give insulin tonight, you will need to stay up and test to make sure the glucose doesn't go too low.

I'd skip tonight, and start over tomorrow with 0.5-1.0 and keep the dose the same for at least 3 full days, unless one of the experienced Lantus folks suggests otherwise.
 
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For following the Start Low Go Slow, with dry food being given, the starting dose is 1.0u. Then you hold that dose for the following week and re-evaluate in a week.

When you're changing the dose based upon the preshot, you end up not knowing how to adjust the dose. It just becomes very confusing. I'd encourage you to drop back to 1.0u when you do shoot, and then stick wtih it, even if you see higher numbers. If she drops below 90, then you would decrease the dose.

I can't stay with you tonight, though, and our custom is that if we encourage someone to shoot we also commit to staying with them in case there are low numbers, so I will let BJ help you decide how to move ahead tonight.
 
Yes, I changed the dose yesterday because of the low numbers, not realizing I should not be doing that.

This may be repetitive, but Liz has been on Lantus 2u bid since Feb 17, and I have been blindly giving her shots, (just started home testing 3/16) missing only two times in the last month - always 2 units except for those two times when she received no shot.) The reasons she didn't get the shot those two times: the first time I had new syringes I wasn't comfortable using and it was the PM shot of course. The second time I felt her BG was lower due to a noticable descrease in urination, but I hadn't started home testing yet.

I realize that dry food is not recommended, but I read that it should not be removed all at one time, especially if not home testing (which I was not yet doing), so I have weaned her dry food to < 1/2 cup daily (more like 1/4 cup) from 1 cup a day 1 month ago.

With her diagnosis she has lost some weight, and now she's 11 lbs. I don't want her to lose more weight, she's pretty skinny looking, so although I know the dry food isn't recommended I don't feel ready to take it away totally just yet if she will eat some of it. She likes wet food but sometimes passes it up for a bit of dry food.

I have also read that there are better foods than Hill's m/d, but I didn't want to make any changes until I started home testing and figuring things out.

I can skip her shot tonight start over tomorrow with .5 and keep it there for three full days if that's what y'all think is best. Or I can give her a shot tonight and check her as needed.

Thank you for your help!
 
I'm not able to stay up late tonight, so I think it'd be better if you skip. (Is anyone else available tonight?)

Have you read over Shooting and Handling Low Numbers?


And quite right about making changes cautiously when you're not testing. You probably avoided major hypo events. Now that you are testing, gradually make changes of 20-25% ever few days, and monitor the nadir period to see how much impact it is making on the glucose.
 
Okay on skipping. Tomorrow morning I will be wondering if I should give .5u or 1u. Will it depend on her AMPS, or does that really have nothing to do with it? How often should I test her tomorrow?

Yes, I have read over Shooting and Handling Low Numbers and will read it again.

Thank you so much!
 
Okay on skipping. Tomorrow morning I will be wondering if I should give .5u or 1u. Will it depend on her AMPS, or does that really have nothing to do with it? How often should I test her tomorrow?
Thank you so much!

Since you haven't changed food yet, I think I'd go with 1.0 unit.

Test before you shoot. Now that you are testing, you can lower the no shoot number to 180 mg/dL on the AlphaTrak. If you get a number lower than that, post here for review and suggestions.

If you can, test sometime or two between +5 to +7 hours after you shoot, to see how low she goes. If she goes below 68 mg/dL on the Alpha Trak, she earns a reduction of 0.25 units if you're following the Tight Regulation protocol. If she drops below about 138 mg/dL (roughly 90 mg/dL on a human meter) and you're following the Start Low, Go Slow protocol, she earns a reduction of 0.25 units.
 
Even though I have read up on Tight Regulation and Start Low, Go Slow I am not sure what I'm using! I will have to review them again. This is a lot of information to take in!!

I will test in the AM, and go with the 1 unit, unless it's low and then I will be back here asking advice. I can test all day tomorrow if necessary and into the night.

Thank you !!!
 
No need to be overly obsessive when there isn't a possible hypo brewing. It takes Lantus a good 3-5 days to stabilize after dose changes. If you are routinely home mid-days, you might try Tight Regulation to see how well she can be regulated. And maybe, as you phase out the dry food, get her off the insulin.
A better low carb dry is Young Again 0 Carb, available on the internet, though we prefer canned or raw food, per Cat Info.
I feed all my cats Friskies pates ... I am feeding 16!
 
16! Wow! I work out of home, so I can do whatever testing is necessary. I will read up on the protocols - thanks again for the information.
 
The TR protocol requires an all wet food diet, so you can start with SLGS. You can always switch to TR later if you want to when she is on all wet food.

Get some rest tonight since you are skipping. One unit sounds good for the morning.
 
This morning Elizabeth's BG is 418, and I am preparing her 1u. She ate a bit less than 1/4 can (5.5 oz) of wet food m/d overnight and ate 1/4 cup of dry food m/d. Reading up on the TR and SLGS protocols today. Am I correct that she should not be taken off of dry food all at once?
Thank you!
 
The issue isn't all or nothing when it comes to dry food. I did not transition my cat -- I just stopped the dry food. The issue is more that you are monitoring Liz's BG if you are either transitioning or stopping the dry. Dry is typically higher in carbs. If you stop feeding dry, you need to know if numbers are dropping. Hill's MD is way high in carbs so it's bumping up Liz's numbers -- hence the need to test if you eliminate it.

Most vets learn about feline nutrition (well, any nutrition, really) beyond one lecture in vet school, from sales reps from the pet food companies. Those reps will sing the praises of their prescription products. The reality is that at least in the case of diabetes, the prescription products are not necessarily better than non-prescription food and in many cases, they are worse. The carb content on any of the diabetes specific dry foods are well over the 10% carb "rule" we use to classify a food as low carb. Even the canned MD is 14% carb. I feed my diabetic and non-diabetic cat Wellness canned that is 4 or 5% carb.

If you want to learn more about feline nutrition, the website that I linked is written by a vet and is a good place to learn.
 
Hi! Welcome to LL Land! Yes, you should always try to get a mid cycle test if possible. It will help you get the info you need to start shooting consistently. The more data you get the better you will understand Elizabeth's cycles and you will be able to shoot lower numbers w/ confidence.

Lantus needs to have consistent doses to be effective. The slow-release reserve that builds up in the body need 6 to 10 cycles to get established. Every time the dose is changed the reserve becomes "unbalanced" and needs up to 6 cycles to get re-established.

Don't worry too much about the high preshot number (this morning it was because you had to skip last night.) Once you can stick to a dose you can see what effect that dose is actually having. so get those mid-cycle tests in whenever you can.
 
If you stick with 1 unit, stop the dry, and phase in low carb food (about 20-25% different food each day), I suspect you will see gradually dropping numbers until you stabilze on only low carb canned food. I would focus on the food change first, then after that is done, start doing the dose adjustments. (change 1 thing at a time)
 
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