glucose levels high (5-600's) cant get them down help

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babbie & otto

Member Since 2015
hey - I am a newbie and researched as much as I could before posting. Otto, 14 yr old 3 legged wonder boy was diagnosed in late January due to loss of weight and frequent urination. 1st vet put us on royal canin diabetic food and 3u lantus and at that time Otto had ketones. Levels stayed around 500 so I switched to Evo (bad diarhea), then to chicken (lower levels but he didnt poop for 5 days). Retest for ketones and we are clear. I went to an internist that insisted we get on Hills DM,up his dose to 5u 2xday - its been 2 weeks, no ketones, he is absolutely starving and levels still high. I switched to FF Classic and this morning his levels were over 600. I do home test twice a day - Ive tried more often but he has been so dehydrated that its been near impossible. I am going to try feeding more in the daytime but would love some advice on getting these levels down. Thanks in advance for any help with my beloved boy.
 
Hi and welcome to you and Otto. :)

If you've switched from Hills m/d to low carb and kept the same dose, please be extra vigilant with BG tests so that Otto's BG doesn't go unexpectedly low. I'm not a dosing expert but to me an incres from 3 units Lantus BID (2x per day) to 5 units is quite a jump. Hopefully someone with more expertise will be along soon to comment further. It would help a lot if you could get both preshot tests (morning and evening) and some mid-cycle tests (ideally somewhere between +5 and +7 hours after the injections) to see how the current Lantus dose is working for Otto.

With regard to Otto being constantly hungry, it's because at cellular level is body is starved of nutrients because the glucose can't get into the cells to help Otto's body use his nutrients properly. He may need more food until he's better regulated. Is he still losing weight?

Looking forward to hearing more of Otto the Three-legged Wonder Boy's story. :)
 
Most of us here report our cat's BG and dose and other things is a spreadsheet which can be viewed by others. That way we can better provide help. Here is how to setup the spreadsheet
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/
Also, insulin does is based on how low the BG goes. Most of us test before each shot and then periodically between shots. More in-between shot BGs are initially required.
It is not clean when the BGs were taken with regards to feeding and time of shot.
What insulin are you using?
 
We don't use tests taken right before giving insulin to adjust the dose; we use tests taken around the nadir, the lowest glucose post shot. We really need to know what insulin you are using, too.
 
I am wondering if the high numbers are because he dose is just too high. I am not a dosing expert but I really think you need the advice of some of our experienced lantus users and so I am tagging them.

@Marje and Gracie , @Wendy&Neko @Tricia & Cinco @julie & punkin (ga) @Sienne and Gabby

5 units is very high and especially when you are switching to a low carb food. I would be careful switching over completely on this high a dose. Please make sure you are testing, not just before each shot but also during the cycle. If the dose is too high and Otto's blood glucose is dropping too fast or too low it could be then bouncing back up and this is the result you are seeing.

Have a look at the. Lantus dosing protocols we use :

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/

I am also going to link the hypo protocol. Please make sure you have some high carb gravey, honey or karo on hand just in case and are able to follow the advice in the link

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
 
I am wondering if the high numbers are because he dose is just too high. I am not a dosing expert but I really think you need the advice of some of our experienced lantus users and so I am tagging them.

@Marje and Gracie , @Wendy&Neko @Tricia & Cinco @julie & punkin (ga) @Sienne and Gabby

5 units is very high and especially when you are switching to a low carb food. I would be careful switching over completely on this high a dose. Please make sure you are testing, not just before each shot but also during the cycle. If the dose is too high and Otto's blood glucose is dropping too fast or too low it could be then bouncing back up and this is the result you are seeing.

Have a look at the. Lantus dosing protocols we use :

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/

I am also going to link the hypo protocol. Please make sure you have some high carb gravey, honey or karo on hand just in case and are able to follow the advice in the link

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
 
Thanks for all the input - my original vet had started him on 3u of lantus then didnt see any drop (on the royal canin) so he upped the dose to 4u then but kept changing almost every day. He would say 5u if the range was in the 500's, 4u if the range was in the 400's. Not so good now that I know better. Then new vet changed me to the CD and upped again to 5u. Im happy to go down to 4 or 3 if suggested. I checked his levels at am/pm right after feeding then a few times around 2 and they were all over the place. The highest ever was 2 weeks after being on 5u 2xday and the vet had told me not to worry about checking him during that time as he was really dehydrated and the blood was difficult to get. I read the low dose go slow and feel like I should lower his dose now that he's on ff. suggestion of what to restart at? His coat still looks aweful and he will eat anything within reach even plastic (like the popcorn peanuts!). I feel like an idiot that I listened to 2 dif vets (I paid one 900 for all the testing and bad advice).
 
When you have a moment, could you add a few tidbits to your signature? It will help us give you feedback without having to go look in all your past posts.

Editing your Signature

In the upper right corner of the screen, within the dark blue bar, you will see ID, Inbox, and Alerts

Click on your ID.

On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature.
This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
Add any other text, such as
your name,
cat's name,
date of Dx (diagnosis)
insulin
meter
any other pertinent issues like if there are any food issues, history of DKA, hepatic lipidosis, pancreatitis, allergies, IBD, etc.
Click the Save Changes button at the bottom.

Always click the Save Changes button at the bottom when you have changed anything.
 
We all do the best we can with what we know at the time. You're at the right place now - we can help you.

Sarah's right, a cat overdosed on Lantus can have continuously high blood sugar. When a cat gets overdosed, their liver and pancreas react by putting out hormones and stored sugars to save the cat's life. The result is high numbers. Since you've changed him to Fancy Feast low carbs, his insulin needs should be considerably less than they were on the previous foods.

How much does he weigh? - if he's "fluffy", can you make a guestimate of what his ideal lean body weight would be?

We do have a weight-based formula for starting out on Lantus.

We can give you some options and then you can decide how to proceed. It would help us a lot if you're able to get a spreadsheet going and put in any information about dose or comments from the vet, and food changes in the comments section. Having it laid out in that format lets us see things in context, and context matters.

Welcome to you and Otto!
 
Most of us here report our cat's BG and dose and other things is a spreadsheet which can be viewed by others. That way we can better provide help. Here is how to setup the spreadsheet
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/
Also, insulin does is based on how low the BG goes. Most of us test before each shot and then periodically between shots. More in-between shot BGs are initially required.
It is not clean when the BGs were taken with regards to feeding and time of shot.
What insulin are you using?
 
Somehow your comments didn't come trhough in the post above - it just has Larry/kittie's quote. Why don't you try again without quoting and see if your comment comes through then.
 
Originally I was taking his levels in the morning right after eating if I could get blood and at night right after eating. These were always high(4-500). I took a few midday and 2 were in the 200's and 1 in the 500's. I had a real tough time getting blood due to dehydration. I had the vet come to the house and he couldnt get any blood. I understand I need to get the nadir so I will really work on that. In the meantime do you think 4u is an ok drawback from 5u? Poor cat is still so hungry on the ff he is digging in the recycle bin, and trying to jump on the counter which he hasnt tried in years. (3 legs).
 
We all do the best we can with what we know at the time. You're at the right place now - we can help you.

Sarah's right, a cat overdosed on Lantus can have continuously high blood sugar. When a cat gets overdosed, their liver and pancreas react by putting out hormones and stored sugars to save the cat's life. The result is high numbers. Since you've changed him to Fancy Feast low carbs, his insulin needs should be considerably less than they were on the previous foods.

How much does he weigh? - if he's "fluffy", can you make a guestimate of what his ideal lean body weight would be?

We do have a weight-based formula for starting out on Lantus.

We can give you some options and then you can decide how to proceed. It would help us a lot if you're able to get a spreadsheet going and put in any information about dose or comments from the vet, and food changes in the comments section. Having it laid out in that format lets us see things in context, and context matters.

Welcome to you and Otto!
 
Otto is about 9 lbs now - should be at 11 -12 regularly. It will take me a few days to figure out the spreadsheet. I just tried and need help. For now, Im really concerned about his hunger. Never seen anything quite like this before. We tried giving him more food before and he threw it up in the middle of the night. I am going to try small amounts of food throughout the day after his regular 1 1/2 can ff. I will also try for glucose level tonite at 10 if that will help. He ate at 7pm
 
He's so hungry because his blood sugar is high. When it's high, he's not getting nutrition from what he eats - that's the glucose in his blood Instead of getting into his cells.

It's pretty likely he's overdosed and that is causing his high numbers. Typically a starting dose on lantus would be 0.5u -1.0u unless the cat is much larger than Otto. If he were mine, I'd decrease to 0.5u.

We have 2 protocols that can guide you on dosing. Take a look at the yellow stickies at the top of the Lantus/Levemir insulin support group and look for the "start low go slow" and "tight regulations protocol" options.

I'd encourage you to decrease the dose and give it 3 days of patience to let the high numbers clear out. During that time, you want to check his urine for ketones. If they occur, please say so immediately. There are conditions that can cause a need for a larger dose, but Otto's starting dose appears to have been too high.

Since he's underweight it's ok for him to eat to regain his weight. Small frequent meals help many cats. You can add as much water to his food as he will tolerate And that will help with the dehydration. As his blood sugar comes down, both his hunger and thirst should improve.

It's very counter-intuitive, but not all high numbers mean that a cat needs more insulin.

Does that all make sense? Do you have any questions?
 
You must get the blood glucose test before you give the insulin and before you feed. So the order should be

Test
Feed
Inject
All within 15 minutes of each other

Then additional tests taken in the cycle.

Most people leave food down or feed mini meals. The only time food should be removed is two hours before the next insulin shot so that you know the blood test is not affected by food.

I've just noticed you are using an alphatrak. It would be worthwhile just pointing it out occasionally in your posts when talking about blood glucose numbers as most people here use a human meter.
 
I agree that your dose may be too high. You may want to consider starting over at a low dose and gradually increasing it until you find the optimal dose. Start over at 1 unit twice a day. Stay at this dose for a week, testing before every shot. After 1 week, you will have enough readings to determine how well the dose is working. If an increase is needed, only increase it by 1/2 unit. Stay at the new dose for another week before increasing it again. It takes at least 1 week for a cat's body to adjust to the new dose.

There is a condition called Somogyi effect or rebound that occurs if the insulin dose is too high. What happens is that the cat's body produces extra glucose to counteract the high dose and prevent hypoglycemia. That is why the BG levels are high. By starting over at a lower dose and gradually increasing it by small increments, you will be able to find the optimal dose that will keep Otto's diabetes under control.
 
I agree that your dose may be too high. You may want to consider starting over at a low dose and gradually increasing it until you find the optimal dose. Start over at 1 unit twice a day. Stay at this dose for a week, testing before every shot. After 1 week, you will have enough readings to determine how well the dose is working. If an increase is needed, only increase it by 1/2 unit. Stay at the new dose for another week before increasing it again. It takes at least 1 week for a cat's body to adjust to the new dose.

There is a condition called Somogyi effect or rebound that occurs if the insulin dose is too high. What happens is that the cat's body produces extra glucose to counteract the high dose and prevent hypoglycemia. That is why the BG levels are high. By starting over at a lower dose and gradually increasing it by small increments, you will be able to find the optimal dose that will keep Otto's diabetes under control.
 
Babble

Your comments have come through. I would just try to reply without quoting the previous thread.

How has today been. Have you read through any of the links, protocols ?
 
So, everyone agrees going down from (now 4u as of yesterday) to 1u 2xday would be a good way to restart - like tonight? I do understand the rebound affect and feel you are correct that that is what is happening. My only problem is getting blood from a crazy animal before his regular bkfst or dinner as he's crazy hungry and out of control in this state. I will begin more small feedings throughout the day starting now!
 
Babble

Your comments have come through. I would just try to reply without quoting the previous thread.

How has today been. Have you read through any of the links, protocols ?

yes, I have read them all and trying hard to work on understanding the spreadsheet. Im going to need help there. I have a booklet right now with numbers but they are crazy with crazy dosing based on suggestions by the vets.
 
Don't worry we can sort it out together.

let's see if we can get you some help with the spreasheet. @Marje and Gracie could you maybe offer to help set up babbles spreasheet.

Now what about the dose decrease that Julie suggested above? These are the stickies she is referring to
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-tight-regulation-protocol.1581/

With the low carb food the lower dose will still have a good effect.
 
You could always list out the numbers on this thread for now.

We use AMPS for the morning preshot reading and PMPS For the evening one. Any other tests taken during the cycle at listed as +1 (ie one hour since the insulin was given) , etc
 
Until you get your spreadsheet up and running, here's an example of how to list your data:

AMPS 301 (before feeding) - meter = <whatever meter you're using>
Dose = ?? units Lantus
+2 331
+5 246
+7 204

PMPS 312
Dose = ?? units Lantus
+3 281
+6 224

(etc).
 
You guys are great! My vet begged me to stay at 2u of lantus but I lowered to 1.5 feeling I should be at 1. Im feeding small amounts of ff between meals. Cant leave food out or he will eat everything. I had to go out of town and have a girl going to the house that told me she has done this before - she is a petsitter by trade. Well, she got his BG last nite - 346 (alpha track) but this AM she said the meter kept beeping and giving her error codes. I have no idea what she did and told her to read the manual. I know a lot of you guys use a human meter and this one does an error code if you try to get blood and there's not enough so you have to use a new stick. Difficult when your cat hates being tested!!!! I can go buy a new one today. She is checking today at 2. Cat is still famished, poop ok and feels good. Cant wait to go home!
 
lots of people use the Relion meters (from Walmart) because the strips are cheap. You can end up using a lot of strips in a day if a cat has low numbers, so the cost of the strips becomes really important for most people - it's the most expensive part of the whole routine. Most people seem to pay about $1 per AT test strip, which is about the same as 4 human glucometer strips if you've bought from a cheaper source. You can also buy generic Arkray meters from www.americandiabeteswholesale.com. There are generic strips that you can get (i used to get 250 strips for $60ish) that work in the Relion meters. You have to match the right strips with the right meters - I think @Ann & Tess can suggest how to do that.

There are 2 dosing methods we use on the Lantus/Levemir insulin support group. One is the Tight Regulation Protocol and one is the Start Low Go Slow method. Take a look at this post, "Where Can I Find?" and you'll see links to both of those in the top half of the post.

With the TRP, we would use the weight based formula for starting a diabetic cat on insulin - in your case, at 9lbs, Otto would have started at 1.0u (9lbs = 4.1kg x 0.25u/kg = 1.025u per shot).

With the SLGS method, all cats start at 0.5u per shot. In both cases you would have held the initial dose for a week. With the TRP, if he stayed high and flat during that time we might have encouraged you to increase before a week, but for most cats, the starting dose is held a week and then re-evaluated.

So even at 1.5u, that is a higher dose than either the Protocol or SLGS would've suggested. The dose is really important because cats can be extremely sensitive to even tiny changes in dose. Most dose adjustments are made in 0.25u increments. A cat that is overdosed can have constantly high blood sugar numbers. You might want to ask your vet what the basis is for the 2.0u that s/he is suggesting.

Are you checking his urine for ketones? Anytime you've dropped a dose like this, it's very important to check at least once or twice a day for urine ketones. You can buy the sticks at any pharmacy - just ask for them, same as for people.
 
yes, checking for ketones and so far we are ok, but thank you, I will definitely be vigilant about it. He had them on the initial diagnosis day but has not had them since. BG today at 444 at 2pm. Not dropping yet. Is it ok to go on down to 1u tonight? He got 1.5 last nt and 1.5 this AM. I asked the vet why 2u and he said he has never had a cat on 1u but he feeds Royal Canin which has 16% carbs so I am assuming his cats need the 2u.
 
food can make a huge difference in the amount of insulin a cat needs.

Yes, you can go to 1.0u tonight. It can take 3 days from when you reduced the dose until the hormones clear out, so you might have another couple of days of high numbers. As long as you're getting negative on the ketones, things are ok. great job checking on that, by the way!
 
I'm not sure that reducing insulin in a cat that recently had ketones is a good idea. Weight loss, ketones, hunger indicate that there is not enough insulin rather than too much. Reducing insulin could allow ketones to form again, as well as prolong the time it takes to get his BS in a normal range.

If his blood sugars remain high in the nadir of his cycle, then the insulin should be increased.
 
Too much insulin can cause high numbers, which can cause hunger.

Three days to let the counterregulatory hormones clear is safer than continuing to dose a cat with 5units unless the cat has been started with an appropriate dose and safely worked up to those 5u.
 
never mind that post - my brother went to check and had left the sticks in the box hours ago and I don't think this is an accurate reading. Otto still starving, bright eyed and happy. Wow, this has been a rough weekend emotionally.
 
Can you check the settings on your spreadsheet permission? You want it to be visible to anyone with the link. It's set to private right now.
 
thanks, Ill check the spreadsheet - will need help from a girl at work! He's been on 1u lantus for 48 hours now and steady BG in the mid 300's (alphatrak) with no ketones. Still starving and happy. I sure wish the vets would give you a shopping list i.e. fish gravel, ketosticks, recommendation on food,tips for getting water in the cat etc. Question, Otto started with ketones and hasn't had them in a month and I was told on my 1st visit he would be insulin dependent for life. Im hoping to reverse the diabetes. Is it a wait and see situation?
 
Yes, it's a wait and see situation. Newly diagnosed cats have a very good chance of having their pancreas heal and being able to go off of insulin. Then they are diet controlled. But we do not know which cats will and which cats won't go off of insulin. The result of the study behind the tight regulation protocol is that cats whose blood sugar gets controlled between 50 and a hundred twenty on a human glucometer have an excellent chance of going into remission. In the study I believe the Stat was over 85%, and the sooner the better. Your AT meter measures higher than a human glucometer. We don't have an exact conversion but it would be roughly 68-160, just as a ballpark figure.

I'm hoping that you may see some lower numbers today as the hormones clear out. Really wishing I could see your ss...would you post and let me know when you get the setting changed? I'm not sure when you're testing in relation to the shots...can you get a midcycle test today and tonight? Anytime between about 3 and 8 hours after each shot.

How is Otto besides his blood sugar? Is he playing, preening himself, peeing and pooping ok? Eating well?
 
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Great to hear that he's feeling good. That speaks volumes!

If your friend can't help, there is a tech forum here and if you post there, they'll be able to help you get it fixed.
 
Here's the link to creating/fixing a spreadsheet.

One helpful trick is to have this page open in a tab. Open a new tab with Otto's spreadsheet in it. Then you can go back and forth between the 2 tabs, reading how to do it on the one tab, then doing that thing on the spreadsheet tab.

If you have trouble, here is the link to the Tech Forum. Just post your question there and someone will give you a hand.
 
Do you have any tests in today to report? If you don't have the ss set up yet, it would still be helpful if you could give us BG tests, including how many hours after the shot the test was. Critter Mom gave you an example of how to show that so we can interpret what's going on.

Hope you're both doing well!
 
well darn, I had a girl at work try to make it public yesterday and thought we had it.
changed him to 1.5 lantus on: (using alphatrak)
2/27 pmps:465
2/28 amps:466, plus8:444, pmps:450
changed to 1u lantus
3/1 amps:484, plus7: 414, amps: 383
3/2 amps:331, plus7:324, pmps: 267, plus2:267
3/3 amps: 407
I was so excited yesterday but now at 407?
 
Today numbers could just be a bounce from yesterday's 200's. Even though 200 is still high it is a good drop from what Otto is used to. I think you are making progress but @julie & punkin (ga) will be able to advise.
 
well darn, I had a girl at work try to make it public yesterday and thought we had it.
You did have it! No worries. The link has worked since your friend fixed it yesterday. I just don't think it was noticed. LOL!

yes, checking for ketones and so far we are ok, but thank you, I will definitely be vigilant about it.
I'm happy to hear you're vigilant about testing for ketones... especially after reducing the dose. Under similar circumstances, those of us who have dealt with ketone prone kitties get concerned when the dose is reduced.

Meya14 offered some sage advice when she accurately summed up the ketone concerns earlier in this thread:

I'm not sure that reducing insulin in a cat that recently had ketones is a good idea. Weight loss, ketones, hunger indicate that there is not enough insulin rather than too much. Reducing insulin could allow ketones to form again, as well as prolong the time it takes to get his BS in a normal range.

If his blood sugars remain high in the nadir of his cycle, then the insulin should be increased.

and

Any time you reduce insulin in a cat that has had ketones, you should make sure to montior for them. If you can check again when you get a chance, and continue regularly until the sugars are better.


I was so excited yesterday but now at 407?
It's *possible* Otto dropped lower than 267 last night which could have caused a bounce to higher numbers this morning OR the reduced dose is simply too low to bring his numbers down. The latter is especially concerning when a cat has recently had ketones. The only way to find out which is to continue to get nadir checks as often as you can till you can figure out how low the current dose is actually taking Otto... while religiously testing for ketones daily. If Otto throws as little as trace ketones on a dip stick, post immediately because that means he definitely needs more insulin (a higher dose)... amongst the possibility of other things.
 
Glad to see you got the link fixed - thanks! Seeing the blood sugar tests in context is really helpful.

Now that you've got a spreadsheet going, I want to invite you to post in the Lantus/Levemir Insulin Support Group. That will get you in the thick of things and people with the most experience with Lantus will be able to jump in and give you a hand. The responses are going to be faster there than here, and I'd like to have others keeping an eye out for you. You also won't be waiting for me to come home from work! ;)

Don't worry about the lingo or the formatting that you'll notice - everyone is new at one point and people will help you get the hang of things. Just jump in with a post and you'll find everyone is extremely helpful.

Earlier several people have mentioned that there are 2 different dosing guidelines that people use on this forum. You're going to want to look at both and decide which one you want to start with - you can, of course, change your mind at any point, but telling us which direction you want to go will help us advise you appropriately:


Thanks for continuing to check for ketones.

My guess would be that Otto may have gone into some lower numbers after that +2/267 - the normal Lantus cycle typically has a +2 about the same as the preshot - which Otto's was - and then the blood sugar lowers over the next few hours before increasing to the next shot time. The bounce Sarah is talking about is what happens when a cat does one of two things - either their blood sugar drops quickly, say over perhaps 50 points per hour, or if the cat's blood sugar goes into a range lower than they are now used to. A cat that has gotten used to 400's can bounce from hitting 200, even. The bounce occurs because the cat's body perceives that the blood sugar is "too low" even if it's still high, or it's dropping fast enough that the body thinks there is an emergency. Then the pancreas and liver release stored sugars and counter-regulatory hormones that send the blood sugar back high. It's a protective mechanism that sometimes fires off when it shouldn't, although it also can keep a cat alive if they've been overdosed, for example.

If you have any test & dose information from before 2/27, it would be really helpful if it was put in the spreadsheet as well. You can go to the first row and click on the left side where it numbers the row (3), and it will highlight that row. Then move your cursor up to that top row right under where it says "Otto Insulin Template" and click on "insert." In that section, click "insert a row above" and VOILA, you'll get a row above row 3. Do that for as many days as you have data for and you can put them in the top of the spreadsheet. Especially since he was on a higher dose and you saw high numbers, having that info on the ss is pretty essential.

If you can post on the Lantus/Lev ISG that I linked above and let us know whether you want to use the SLGS method or the Tight Regulation Protocol that would be great!

Continuing to check for ketones and getting spot checks in on his blood sugar will help direct us where to go next.
 
Our Goofus was all over the place for quite awhile too, but day by day, the numbers came down. We use the AlphaTrak 2 and ProZinc insulin. I had so much trouble trying to get blood from the ear, my vet suggested the paw pads and it works so much easier, he HATED it when I poked his ear.
 
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