Bovine PZI insulin first time user help from other Bovine PZI users!

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rbrumbaugh82

Okay so I just started Pooper's on the new Bovine insulin tonight. At the initial glucose test he was 417 at 7:30pm. I gave him 1 unit of the insulin and +3 hours later he only went down to 387. So what can I expect with this insulin at the beginning? How long will it take for his body to adopt to this insulin and to see if it even works on him? I guess I was expecting his number to be like in the 100s by now if this is as closely related to cat insulin as possible. I just don't want to worry he stays high all night long when I am hoping it would be in the healthy range at some point tonight. :(
 
I can't really offer any advice, as I'm a new BCP-PZI user too. We just started a week ago. If you look at Colby's chart, you will see what horrible numbers he has had all along. I'm going to be more aggressive with dosing this weekend--I'm sick of him being high, and I'm sick of being patient. I believe he has another condition, possibly acromegaly, that is going to require much higher dosing.

Looking at Poopers' chart, he had some nice numbers for a while, even on the crappy insulin--I'm jealous of all the blues and greens (and even yellows!) that you had a while back! Someone more experienced would know, but I wonder if he also has something else going on that is suddenly making him require more insulin.
 
You are working to find his optimal dose. It may not be 1 unit. Use the protocol in the ProZinc/PZI forum to help you learn what works.

The thing that will be most different from N is the duration. PZI should last around 12 hours, unlike the N which pooped out starting around+8ish.
 
Well my Vet did suggest 2 units 2 times a day but I went against her and did 1 unit because most here said to start light and work my way up.
 
Better too high for a day than too low for a moment.
You might try 1.5 units tomorrow, if you are able to monitor, as a compromise between 1 and 2 units.
With an in and out insulin, it is easier to adjust the dose when you find it isn't working.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
I gave him 1 unit of the insulin and +3 hours later he only went down to 387.
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Patience, Grasshopper....;)

You may expect to see the lowest number of the cycle at around 5 - 6 hours after the shot (but remember the FDMB adage, 'Every Cat Is different'.)
You're doing the right thing by starting low and working up. That's the best way to arrive at the optimal dose. If you start too high you may miss the optimal dose and have to backtrack. :rolleyes:
.
 
How many shots or days will it take for a cat to start adapting to a new insulin? I gave him his 2nd shot this morning at 1.5 units and from 369 it has only dropped 24 points in +4 hours. I guess I am expecting it to be much lower and I pray this insulin will work on his. For Pete Sake, its 1 amino acid away from what a cat produces and yet this isn't dropping his glucose like I would have thought. :(
 
Hope so because it really isn't budging much with these 2 shots he has been on so far.
 
Probably a waste of time and hope with buying this stuff. He went from 327 to 349 in +2 so not exactly doing anything for him. I would have thought 2.5 units of this stuff would be doing something good by now especially if this is a cat insulin.

I should rephrase that the 2.5 units is from 1 unit last night and then 1.5 units this morning. So far he has received 2.5 units and figured that would be enough to lower it to healthy range by now.
 
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Okey dokey...
So, these may not be the best numbers in the world; but they certainly aren't the worst either.
And what I'm seeing is that Pooper's numbers aren't swinging all over the place from high to low to high again. I'm seeing more consistency, possibly as a result of him having insulin in his system for more of the time. This insulin isn't running out of steam so soon.

You may need to increase the dose to see lower numbers over all. And that's OK. A cat needs what a cat needs.
Give this insulin time to show you what it can do for Pooper...
.
 
Well truth is he is supposed to get 2 units 2 times a day but I was starting out low to see if the lowest dose would be the safest. So far he is sticking in the 300s and not going down much lower than that so I may need to go to 2 units. I know the Vet Assistant told me that they base dosage off of weight. So for example, 0.1 units per pound of cat weight. So a 10 pound cat would get 1 unit and a 20 pound cat would get 2 units. Poopers is around 20 pounds so maybe 2 units then? I want to be consistent with his dosaging so do you guys think I should shoot every 12 hours or do you think it can be shoot sooner than that? I know through the week it would be tough to do every 8 hours because I can shoot at like 830am but I wouldn't be able to give him insulin at 430pm. However, I do not want to have to wait until like 8pm at night to shoot because I won't be up at like 2am to check for the NADIR which I believe Larry said was at 5-6 hour range. So I am trying to shoot in evening so that I can still track his NADIR and know when that lowest point is for him. Very frustrating!
 
At two hours after the shot, it isn't surprising the number hadn't dropped. The insulin doesn't take effect immediately. 2-3 hours after the shot it usually reaches "onset". Just beginning to work.

The thing is, you have to be patient while collecting data. It can take 2-3 days of holding the dose before you see a pattern. When is onset, when is nadir, how long is the duration, etc.
And it is nearly impossible to base dosing decisions until that data is collected.

It can be frustrating. But what you don't want to do is raise the dose too quickly. After a while, you might get to a point where you can try different things. Like basing the dose on the numbers you see each day, or even every shot. And you may decide to shoot less than (or more than) 12 hours apart. But not until you have a "history" to base those decisions on.
 
Well from what I am seeing now Carl is that he was at 387 last night before I gave him 1 unit of the new insulin. I wake up and test his glucose at 815am this morning and it was at 369. So I gave him 1.5 units of insulin to see if it would drop it more. +4 hours later he only goes down to 327. +2 hours later it goes up to 343 and then +2 hours after that just down a little to 316. So bottom line is the numbers are consistent and not spiking low or high but 300s are too high for me and I hate hearing the terrible beep noise that tells me that his number is in the Ketone area. Why I don't believe he has Ketones I just do not want to see his number above 240 persistently. So the Vet ordered him to be on 2 units but I was starting out low and those low numbers don't seem to be dropping it into the 100s. I know give it time but I'd like to see better numbers and I would think if his body would notice better insulin for the pancreas that it would begin to drop them. How come N can kick in quickly and drop his numbers down but a much better insulin hasn't done that yet? I want to give him insulin every 8 hours but afraid it may be too soon since I was told this stuff stays in the system 12-24 hours and in some cases most cats just need 1 shot once a day.
 
Different insulin types have different pharmacokinetics, ie work differently. While N drops a cat like a rock, then wears off early, PZI has a more gentle onset and lasts longer; it may not drop as much as the same number of units as N. It also doesn't yoyo your cat's glucose levels sharply up and down.
 
So at the beginning of this journey, would it be safe to give him this insulin at 8-10 hours apart instead of the 12 just so that I can be able to test his glucose for the lowest point between the 3-6 hour range after the shot?
 
I think I might stick with 1.5 as long as his preshot reading is 300+, and maybe a little less if his preshot is under 300. Just for a couple more days to see what you get. You're sort of trying to establish a baseline.

Has your vet established a number under which you would not give insulin? Most people initially draw that line at 200. My vet set the bar at 150, and Bob only got a tiny dose if I saw that. Rarely happened, especially the first few weeks. Bob was usually in the 300-400 range at shot time for the first month.

The best thing, IMHO, about PZI is that you can adjust the dose (assuming the data supports doing so) based on the numbers on a shot by shot basis if that is how you want to do it. And you aren't locked in to "12 hours apart".

When Bob was on insulin, I rarely gave shots 12 hours apart. That wasn't due to his numbers, but due to my schedule. " Every 12 hours" just was not a realistic option for me.
He also was on a "sliding scale" created by my vet, and specific to Bob, where his dose was adjusted based on his preshot BG. Almost every shot his dose was different.
But first I had to try "1u" for a few days and collect data.

No matter what you do down the road, I believe it is best that your vet is aware of what you want to try. And hopefully supportive of it. You'll get great help here. But having your vet on the same page is a great thing too.
 
rbrumbaugh82 said:
So at the beginning of this journey, would it be safe to give him this insulin at 8-10 hours apart instead of the 12 just so that I can be able to test his glucose for the lowest point between the 3-6 hour range after the shot?
Click to expand...
Yes. But...
What you want to be sure of is that at the 8-10 hour point, his BG is NOT dropping. So you can test him at +9, and without food, see if it is rising by +10. If it is on the way up, it should be okay to give a shot. Don't assume it is rising, you want to be sure.
 
Well my Vet wants me to do 2 units 2 times a day. This is based on medicinal properties of insulin. That 0.1 per pound of body weight. So since Pooper's is 20 pounds he would get 2 units. So tonight I gave him 2 units. He ate some dry food but the dry food is supposed to be a low glycemic food. However, his number shot up to over 400 and thats when I gave him the 2 units of insulin. I want to check it around 1030 tonight to see if it has dropped anywhere towards a healthy number somewhere in the 100s. As far as the level off, my vet has just said to get his glucose to under 130 consistently. When I told the lady about not shooting under 200 I think they wanted me to still give insulin even if his number was like 150. They haven't gotten real critical with me on it other then making sure to give him the 2 units 2 times a day and making sure to give it to him at the same time. Not sure how well they are educated with feline diabetes. lol.
 
When I told the lady about not shooting under 200 I think they wanted me to still give insulin even if his number was like 150.

I can understand that, but she should have told you "but you should reduce the dose accordingly".

Let's say you get a preshot BG of 350, and you give 2u. 5-6 hours later, you test and get a 150. Great news, right?
Next shot time, you see a BG of 175. That would be awesome! The insulin worked really well, and 10-12 hours later, his BG is only half what it was.
So the vet has told you to "give 2u every twelve hours". Now you have a preshot BG of 175. 2u just dropped his BG by 200 points. His BG is only 175.
Ask your vet what happens if his BG drops 200 points after a preshot of 175...

IMHO, that is why "Give X units twice a day" is not great advice. There must be exceptions to that rule that your vet must lay out for you.
 
Yeah I don't really care what they say. I won't shoot if under 200 especially with a stronger insulin. I just hope with this one that he will stay consistent and if he is like 140 at night that he won't rise that much through the night since he is sleeping. Before with N, if he was like at 160 at night I would wake up to his glucose being 200 points higher or more. I want consistency and under 200 so his pancreas can have time to heal and eventually be able to work on its own.
 
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