How To Proceed

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Liza and Tucker

Member Since 2015
Hello, friends,

Here is the short version: a slow-growing respiratory infection derailed our cat Tucker's glucose levels and threw her diabetes out of whack. After another curve ball from an ER vet and a prolonged visit to our regular vet to help regulate her, our prescription is as follows: don't monitor Tucker's glucose; just inject four units twice a day indefinitely; feed her wet m/d.

We use Lantus pen; I had been monitring BG up until this point. I feed her homemade cat food (per catinfo.org). She is a 14-year-old high maintenance calico. I am not testing currently. I am giving her four units twice daily. She is eating homemade cat food, not m/d.

Pros: The break from testing is quite welcome. I feed, I inject.

Cons: What if BG changes and she no longer needs the four units? What is my accountability here?

How would you proceed if monitoring worked, but illness caused issues, and now vet says don't test, just feed m/d and inject?

Any thoughts? Do I accept the much needed break from feline diabetes and let it ride for a while (still feeding her homemade cat food)? Or do I go back to testing on my own? There is no doubt it is putting a strain on the whole family.

How to proceed...

Thanks.

Liza
 
If you aren't blood testing, you're shooting blind ... and things can and do change. No matter what the vet says, I'd test.

At a minimum, pick up some KetoDiaStix and urine test to monitor for ketones and glucose in the urine. This tells you what has happened since the previous void. Also monitor food and water consumption and elimination, key indicators in diabetes.

See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for tips on urine testing, plus other assessments you may wish to do.
 
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I'm pretty new here and can't really give any advice, but I can tell you that there's no way I'd give 4 units twice a day without testing. I wouldn't shoot any without testing. It can be exhausting and overwhelming caring for our sugar babies... I'm sorry you and Tucker are having such a tough time.
 
What if BG changes and she no longer needs the four units? What is my accountability here?

How would you proceed if monitoring worked, but illness caused issues, and now vet says don't test, just feed m/d and inject?

Any thoughts? Do I accept the much needed break from feline diabetes and let it ride for a while (still feeding her homemade cat food)? Or do I go back to testing on my own? There is no doubt it is putting a strain on the whole family.

I can't answer for you about Tucker, Liza. I can share what I would do if it were Saoirse.

1. I regard myself as completely accountable for her wellbeing. I have to be able to live with any decisions I make for her. If I was dosing blind and something bad happened I would have to live with knowing I had elected not to test. Saoirse is my world and I would never forgive myself.

2. Following on from (1), I had no choice but to give insulin blind when Saoirse first started her treatment just after diagnosis last year because I got no support whatsoever from the vet treating her at the time. Actually I got marked resistance (refused to recommend a glucometer on the grounds it would be "wasting [my] money"). I also wasn't happy with the diet prescribed and feeding restrictions they placed on Saoirse (restrictions that were causing her severe gastric pain). I learned to test anyway, and my decision probably saved Saoirse's life when she was on Caninsulin. (Thankfully our current vets fully support home BG monitoring.)

3. I'd stand my ground with my vet about what I wanted to feed her. I would let him or her know, because if they were deciding the dose then they would have to know the carb load of the food in order to make a recommendation.

Those few weeks dosing Saoirse blind were some of the most frightening and emotionally shattering weeks of my life. Regular testing is challenging and draining at times, but it's absolute peanuts compared to not knowing whether ketones or hypoglycaemia were waiting around the corner for my little one. I do understand the relief you feel about taking a break from the testing. I allowed myself the luxury of a little hope when I started Saoirse's first OTJ trial. The prospect of Saoirse needing no more injections and only occasional testing was wonderful, and so much better for both of us, but mostly for her. When Saoirse's first OTJ trial failed I bawled my eyes out at the prospect of having to test and inject her forever; not for my sake but for hers.

Just my 2 penn'orth.
 
My vet really pushed the MD until I took in a can of what I was feeding and compared the label to his MD and said okay you tell me which one has ingredients in it that aren't natural for a cat! At that point he admitted that they couldn't suggest I feed anything else because the MD was the only thing tested for diabetes and he accepted my decision.

I would also never shoot without testing or getting mid cycle tests, that is just asking for trouble...
 
I saw your post in the think tank but thought I'd come speak here.

You said you just recently found us..... and that right there might be the key to getting everything in a much better "space"....
this is where we all live FD 24/7 and you have so much experience and advice to tap into now.

I , personally, only used my vet to get the prescription....
everything they adviced me to do was W-r-o-n-g..... and I took my vial and learned the right way. They just don't get enough training and mostly what they learn is how to treat canine diabetes
which isn't the same, the insulin works differently.
I found this place the first night ( couldn't sleep any way) and learned as much as I could, as fast I could, read other peoples condos ( postings)

The lantus/levemir forum is the place to be where you can get daily help with dosing.... and all the other management issues....
We recommend you always get that pre-shot test..... and we hope you will get at least one more test in during each cycle..... so that's 4 a day ....
If you really want to get to regulation or better..... you need that data.

We have spreadsheets where we keep track of bg and so the others can advise. There are patterns to watch for that tell us when it's too much, not enough.

There have been some people who show up.... and just can't do it anymore....
every one has so much more going on than just FD, but if you would like to give us a try....

start posting a daily condo .... and you'll get lots of input and many shoulders to vent to and cry on.....
we've been where you are....
 
Hi all,

Thanks for the responses and sorry for the delay. Between my family life (including my 5-year-old) and doing some more research/thinking, I needed to take some time.

Just to clarify, I'm not new to the FDMB, I'm just a new MEMBER as of this month. Our 14-year-old kitty was diagnosed a couple of summers ago with steroid-induced diabetes. I took over her care at the end of summer 2014, at which point I frequented this site, as well as catinfo.org, often for research, Q & A, peace of mind, making wet food and so on. So I am very familiar with all of the tools here, streams of thought, ways of thinking, dos and don'ts, yeses and nos. All invaluable resources.

When I took over Tucker's care, she was freely feeding on a Hill's dry m/d diet and five units of Lantus two times a day! Yikes! She was simply...fat, sluggish, poorly managed. I immediately went to canned wet food until I thoroughly researched making my own food (which I still do), started home testing (which I am currently not doing), took her off of her insulin for a bit to see what her body would do with its own insulin, and waited for a while. Through wet food, testing, using the low-and-slow approach, Tucker managed to require only one unit of Lantus, sometimes two, twice a day through the fall. We were doing awesome: she lost lots of weight, her fur shown glossy, she played and jumped and gobbled her wet food.

However, by end of fall/beginning of winter, I began to notice that her BG levels were staying at relative high levels. I increased her insulin dosage. She stayed the same. Other things began to change: more rapid breathing, in-and-out of interest in food, needy, tired. So many new things, no change in her BG, except that it stayed in the mid-to-high 200s. Once she hit 310. By January, she was sneezing a bit, a few other things, clearly not well.

When she started vomiting, it was mostly spittle, and she would do it at the same time everyday, around 5 PM. Now she was steady high 200s and I couldn't bring her down and, I felt, I was guessing at what to do. Nothing on this site really helped, except the emotional support, because every owner is different, every cat, and there are various opinions by experts and experienced/seasoned diabetic cat owners alike, and...we are just guessing often. She showed no other signs of anything else -- no smelly urine or missing, no foul or sweet breath, no dilated pupils, etc. Her vomiting kept her stomach empty, which likely created more vomiting as a hungry diabetic. It was my duty to seek medical attention.

When I took her into the vet, he happily (with relief) diagnosed her with a respiratory infection (rattle in lungs, swollen lymph nodes, fever) and gave us an antibiotic. He knew I was home testing and seemed okay with it, but I suspected he didn't love the idea. He also knows how stressful and high maintenance it can be to have a diabetic cat. He is hugely empathetic and, I believe, wants to achieve balance for everyone.

Anyway, the rest of this story is on the Zen thread in the Think Tank, so I'll spare you the details. But it ends with two prolonged stays at two different vets (on at ER), with two different approaches, one pro-Lantus and one con, one keeping her on the antibiotic and the other taking her off. They both agreed to keep Tucker at high levels of Lantus (five and four respectively) for awhile as it was/is clear that Tucker wasn't regulating, especially due to the infection.

I think they both also agree/suspect that she is an older, diabetic cat and/or will remain difficult to regulate, so keep her units high (my vet did keep her for three nights and managed to keep her regulated at four units, once trying only one time one day, which sent her into the 400s). I'm not sure that I disagree. They both suggested that I no longer test; this has caused some consternation for me. They both also like wet m/d. I do not; I continue to feed her my homemade food, which she loves. They both suggested about 2/3 can/portion per feeding; I do not do this either, as Tucker has vomited from having run out of food in the early mornings. I give her 5.5-6 oz of food each feeding. She does not need to go hungry and can freely feed.

It is the testing/no testing part with which I struggle. I know that I can/could have more control over her diabetes, but maybe not. Steve and Yochi just posted a Think Tank thread regarding Dr. Hodgkins approach of tight regulation. Her site offers a scale for insulin dosage, like many others out there. She also recommends testing after 6-8 hours of eating(?) or dosing (?) (can't remember), or ideally every 3-4 hours. Others say just test, feed, shoot. Still others test all of the time and can do little else in his/her life because of it. What kind of life is that? My vet says, look, I achieved regulation after several days of testing and says four units. I know that the stress of testing, waiting, watching is maddening, and I need to consider everyone in the family regarding Tucker's regulation. She acts normally, although she seems tired. But what do I know what it's like to be a 14-year-old diabetic cat? She has been through a lot, and I'm going on faith right now that we will walk the road slowly until I know something needs to change. Panic, stress, emotional overload, worry do not help Tucker's situation, nor mine. Sometimes over-research doesn't either. Help from this site comes in the form of reassurance always and some solid info often. Dr. Pierson's site is invaluable for its detail and food knowledge. I also believe that she is correct in her assessment of her colleagues' disinterest in a more holistic approach to feline diabetes, but aren't we dealing with that culturally with regard to human medicine, mental health and so on? Furthermore, I believe that my vet has our best interest in mind (even while he is choosing processed food), especially when it comes to stress management. I do wish I were more educated/confident about testing and what that SHOULD look like, but I am pretty confused right now by so many ways of thinking. So what I am doing is incorporating the best of all worlds, finally becoming a member of FMDB and being involved more to better educated and listen to myself. I do not doubt that many of you experience all of these fluctuating emotions and ideas. For that, I am grateful and can vent/talk, too.

So, in answering how I am doing (today), I would say that I'm still thinking, trying to decide what else to do, but we are moving forward with keen eyes. We are holding steady.

Any further conversation/ideas about this will be well received. Thanks for participating.

Liza and Tucker
 
Hi Liza,

It can certainly be hard at times deciding how best to care for our companion animals. And what we decide to do will depend on many things; our level of interest, our other commitments, our health, our budget, our time, and maybe many other factors.

Some folks don't actually give their cat's diabetes a whole lot of thought. Maybe they're not interested. Maybe they don't have the time. Or maybe they trust that the vet will give them the best advice and they just choose to go along with that. Some cats will be put to sleep because the vet recommends that.

The vast majority of folks with diabetic cats give shots twice a day (or maybe even once a day) as per the vet's instructions; and that's it. Or they may also feed a 'prescription' diet for diabetic cats. But, for whatever reason, that is the limit of what they do.

However, there is much more that can be done if the caregiver is willing. When it comes to treating/managing feline diabetes, knowledge is most definitely power.

The vet who diagnosed my cat's diabetes suggested I have him put to sleep. I didn't want to do that, so I got another vet instead. The second (and my current) vet told me that cats typically lived 2 years with diabetes. I didn't like the sound of that, so I got online and started finding information and support. My cat has just celebrated his 8th anniversary as a diabetic.
He has had a happy and healthy 8 years. He's old now, and I don't know how much more time we'll have together, but I am immensely grateful for the time he's had.

Hometesting enabled me to understand Bertie's diabetes, to manage it better, and to give him a good life. If I'd not hometested then Bertie would have been dead a long time ago; it really has saved his life. And I'm sure there are others here who would say the same of their own cats.

Hometesting has also enabled a great many cats to go into remission; that is, to become diet-controlled diabetics. There are probably quite a lot of cats out there on insulin who don't actually need to be; but the caregiver doesn't know it because they don't hometest.

Those that do hometest have a number of options open to them for managing their cat's diabetes.
Some people will start on a low dose of insulin and work up gradually to a higher dose ('Start Low, Go Slow'). Some people, who can test more frequently, may aim to keep their cat's blood glucose in a lower (euglycemic if possible) range of numbers for much of the time ('Tight Regulation'). And others may evolve a different method that's customized to their own cat's needs.
(Note: The folks on the Dr Hodgkins sites aim to follow only Dr H's own tight regulation protocol.)

Some people start out by just testing before every insulin shot, to make sure it's 'safe' to give that shot.
The next step up would be to do some mid-cycle tests to see how the insulin is working in the cat's body. It's useful to work out when the insulin starts working, how long it lasts, and - crucially - how low the cat's blood glucose is dropping on a given dose of insulin.

People at home during the day may test more than folks who are out at work. People who are out at work in the day may test before each shot, and then get another test or two done during the evening; or a few more at weekends.
People do whatever they are able to do, depending on their circumstances. Some folks here have young families. Some folks are ill or disabled (or are caring for a family member who is ill or disabled). Some folks have money worries. Some work very long hours away from home. Some folks are comfortably off and have time on their hands. In short, people here are the same as people everywhere else!

Caring for a diabetic cat can have it's challenges at times (we've all been there...) But it can also be immensely rewarding.
And who knows, with the right care, your Tucker may turn out to be one of the lucky ones that goes into remission...

Eliz
 
Hello Elizabeth and Bertie,

This is lovely. I had been thinking of some of these things recently, that I suppose most folks don't test, or don't do much about their feline with diabetes. But many of us that do test and are more invested in long-term care are likely here, or are doing more on their own. If feline diabetes is so common, what are other folks doing?

I have another concern regarding Tucker, however: I suspect that her respiratory infection has returned. All of her symptoms point to it, which means it never really went away, or it is not helped by the diabetes, or a viral version exists. I did test her today again, for the first time personally in a couple of weeks. She registered 336. I still gave her four units of Lantus. But I probably need to call the vet. I will let you know what we find out. It is the respiratory infection that put us down the path of uncertainty and lacking confidence (on my part).

Last fall I thought we were kissing the lips of remission! Alas, we shall see. I'll write more soon.

You are a lovely writer. Thanks again for your words. :)

PS - For the record, my vet wants to see Tucker succeed. He does not want to see her put down. I believe he is trying to offer balanced options. He's good like that, having faith in the kitty's ability to live with diabetes, as well as that of the caregiver. Good stuff and hopeful.
 
Hello again,

Thought I'd catch folks up on how it's going.

Tucker is just over halfway through with her antibiotic for her respiratory infection. A few nights ago, she had another round of vomiting. Finally, she coughed up a big roundworm. There was some relief from that discovery. She received de-worming medicine. The night she vomited her BG reading was 398.

Just before and after that vomiting episode, I spent several days taking pre-meal BG numbers. Only once was it not in the 330s (278).

I reviewed a few more protocols, reviewed the numbers, considered her infection and worm situations, and have decided to stay at four units (clicks) every twelve hours for a week or two, or after finishing the antibiotic, and then I will run another series of BG curves to see where she stands.

I do not know why her numbers don't decrease other than because she has not been well. I don't think she's exactly the same cat. She looks good, she is just slower and seems more tired. She is 14. Perhaps she's just had the umph taken out of her through all of this.

I'll come back with more numbers in a week.

Thanks for listening.
 
Hi Liza,

Is Tucker an indoor/outdoor kitty? My Bertie is and he's had a couple of roundworm episodes (has twice thrown up little 'knots' of roundworms that looked like miniature balls of wool! Yikes!) I guess he got those from eating rodents or birds. Is Tucker a hunter..?

Eliz
 
Hi Elizabeth,

So, you mean Tucker the "hunter"? She's more like Tucker the observer, stalking and killing her prey, but only in her head. :) She came to the family as a skinny little stray many years ago. She has always spent the warmer seasons outdoors, coming in at night, so she has a worm once a year or so. Perhaps it is what caused her respiratory infection? Don't know. It was a big, juicy, pasta-looking thing this time. Still moving a bit, too. Yum!

We have finished the antibiotic and I took a break from making her food, feeding her some canned wet. What is it with canned food that causes her to eat it immediately, opposed to feeding her my homemade food? Is it that the canned food companies put the same luring, addicting ingredients as McDonald's into its French fries? When I feed her my food she STILL makes a fuss, rubbing me all over, requesting that I have a full conversation with her before every bite, coaxing, brushing, dramatizing. Dios!

I plan on a renewed curve this weekend. She looks good, still sleeps a lot, but we're back to normal, just eating and insulin.

How is it going in Cobham?

Liza
 
Hi

Now you are getting some readings would you be able to set up a spreadsheet?it's a great way to record and review glucose numbers and ask others to review them too.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...te-a-ss-and-link-it-in-your-signature.130337/

Please be careful of upping to 4 units of lantus. That is a big dose. Dosing is decided upon based on the nadir (the lowest point of the cycle) and not the pre shot test result.

Was the 300 's you have been getting before feeding a pre shot reading? Have you managed to get any +4, +5, +6 or +7 readings ? If so what are they. If not I wouldn't advise upping the dose until you have done your curve.
 
I'm glad to hear that you're testing again. On catinfo.org there is a quote that has really stuck with me. "Trying to manage a diabetic cat without home testing is a bit like driving a car with a paper bag over your head." I think that's a fairly accurate statement.

Everytime I hear of a vet trying to dissuade people from home testing I find it to be totally ridiculous. Would a doctor tell a human diabetic to not bother testing and just dose themselves? That sounds like a malpractice suit just waiting to happen.

I'm glad to hear your kitty is feeling at least a bit better after coughing up that big ringworm. Yuck, that would be enough to make anyone feel unwell. The immediate eating of the canned food may be because it's a novelty. If you feed it long enough it will become much less exciting.

Being 14, just getting over an infection, and getting rid of a big ringworm it's not surprising to me that she's needing more sleep to heal up a bit.
 
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