When to seek a second opinion

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Thelda

Member Since 2023
I’m a new member, but I’m not new to diabetic cats. I’m here for your guidance and advice - not necessarily medical, but perhaps your reassurance that I’m not being overly…aggressive. This is going to be long, and I’m so sorry. Iago is my second older friend with diabetes - my Tom lived to 17. Iago is doing well in every other respect at 16, except he’s poorly controlled. We moved to a new area while continuing with his previous maintenance prescription of 2 units twice per day of Vetsulin. We started to notice him becoming more restless at night, so we decided we would take him in for a senior cat appointment. I should also add that a few months ago we changed him from prescription diabetes dry food (I believe it was Hill’s) to Tiki Cat Chicken and Egg because he became increasingly reluctant to eat.

All his blood work was fine, except for his glucose, which was 405. The vet increased his prescription to 3 units twice per day, and we returned the next week; it was 336. I should note that he is not a fan of having his sugar checked at home. It’s definitely easiest to check ears (Tom allowed it), but Iago flattens them down, and even with two of us, it’s basically impossible to get a reading on him. So the vet said to increase to 4 units 2x per day. I wasn’t feeling great about this for reasons I won’t go into just now, but we vowed to watch Iago carefully.

For the first day, he seemed fine. But the second night, it was clear that he’d started struggling. I dug out my ancient AlphaTrak kit and strips, and, now docile, Iago let me test him. I got a result of 36, which may or may not be accurate (2016 test strips), but it was obvious from his sluggishness, disorientation (he eliminated in his cat bed and not litter box) and near inability to walk that he was hypoglycemic. We’re so, so fortunate that he was still conscious and we stayed up the whole night to feed him treats and watch him slowly stabilize. He’s suffered no lasting effects from his episode and I’m so grateful.

Our vet attributed his episode to his picky eating, which I’ll concede is likely a factor. It’s possible that when we administered his evening dose he wandered away from his bowl and didn’t eat enough. She wanted us to continue with the 4 units. I said no, which seemed to shock her. So she said she would consult with the senior veterinarian. After a few days, she got back with me and proposed Bexacat. I said it sounded interesting and initially I said yes. But after I got off the phone with her, I looked it up and noticed almost immediately that it wasn’t meant for cats that have been treated with insulin already. I decided I didn’t want Iago on it, but I didn’t really want to confront the vet about whether they knew that it wasn’t meant for cats like him.

Instead, I asked if it might be possible for Iago to respond better to a longer-lasting insulin like Lantus. I asked about that one because my paltry internet research said positive things about it for picky eaters and I know that it really helped my other cat. Again, she consulted with the senior vet and they proposed ProZinc. That brings us close to the present. We began treating Iago with two units of ProZinc a week ago, and he had his glucose checked on Thursday. It was 316. So we’ve gone up to three units of ProZinc twice a day.

At this point, I’m just concerned that we’re going to see a repeat performance of lots of insulin spiraling up to a hypoglycemic episode. And I’m getting concerned, because I read stories about other owners of diabetic cats stating that it’s rare for cats to take more than four units of insulin per day. I’m not sure my current vet will have out of the box ideas to try for Iago, or if the response will just be “more insulin.” I used to live in a big city and could take my cats to an exclusively feline veterinarian. Now we’re an hour and a half away from them. I’d prefer to take Iago there, but he gets terribly, terribly carsick and he’s more fragile now. I can’t say for sure that the trip would be more beneficial than harmful for his health.

I would love to know what you think. My friend means the world to me. Thank you for reading.
 
There are a couple of factors I think caused the hypo and the first being the switch from dry to low carb food. That alone can drop the bg by as much as 100 points making the dose no longer safe. We recommend daily testing to monitor how low the dose is taking your cat daily but i understand you said he’s difficult to test. A lot of folks who are in the same situation opt for the libre so they can monitor the bg without testing.

secondly, with Vetsulin you need to test, feed and then wait at least 20-30 minutes to shoot and that’s because it’s a fast acting harsh insulin and you need to make sure your cat has food onboard to slow down the bg drop.

lastly, you’ve been increasing the dose by full units and I know that’s what vets advise but here we recommend making dose adjustments by 1/4 unit instead. So instead of going from 2 to 3 units, you’d have gone from 2 to 2.25, 2.5, 2.75 and finally 3. That’s a safer way to again monitor and see how the gradual dose increase is affecting his bg. Good for you for not staying with the 4 units dose. Our dosing protocols would have you decreasing the dose by 1/4 unit every time your cat goes below either 50 or 90 on a human meter depending on which protocol you decide to follow.

Lantus and prozinc are much safer, gentler longer lasting insulin so your cat is less likely to have huge drops and is protect the entire 22 hours as opposed to Vetsulin which wears off quickly.

With a diabetic cat you need:
  • A low carb wet diet that is 10% carbs or under. Most of us use around 4-7% carbs
  • A suitable insulin such as Lantus or Prozinc which are long acting, more gentle insulins than the old insulins.
  • We recommend hometesting the blood glucose with a human meter…it is not necessary to use a pet meter which is expensive to run and is no better. It will keep your kitty safe and you will know how the dose is working for your kitty. Only testing every so often will not tell you what is happening in between those times and an awful lot can happen in even a day.
  • HELP US HELP YOU has information about the spreadsheet, signature and hypo box which you will need to be able to look after your beloved kitty properly
We are happy to help you with setting up the spreadsheet, sorting out what food to buy, how to transition safely to a low carb diet, how to learn to home test and much more.
 
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I love these suggestions. I do want to note that at the time of his hypoglycemic episode, we hadn’t made any changes to his food. They’d been eating Tiki Cat Dry since November 2022 and he had his crash three weeks ago.

I started experimenting with the Nulo this last Wednesday because he seemed to become more and more disenchanted with the Tiki Cat. I’ve been trying to acquire dry foods with the lowest carbohydrate content possible, and I stick with dry food because he’s always shown more enthusiasm for dry.

But I’m always ready to try something different. Should I be asking my vet for prescription food recommendations, and for the Libre? I’d love to try things that aren’t just more insulin. I’m wondering if I should keep working with this vet…or if I should move on.
 
The libre does need to be put on by a vet, but vet prescribed foods are typically too high in carbs so I wouldn’t ask your vet about it. I personally went through 3-4 vets so I learned everything here and followed the advice from the pros on this site. A cat only vet may be better but I have yet to see a vet that doesn’t adjust dose by full units and doesn’t dose by the preshot numbers. We dose by the lowest your cat goes in a 12-hour period.

Dr. Elseys dry is low carb and there’s one other one I always forget Young Cat maybe @Bron and Sheba (GA) ?

if you’re still feeding some dry, don’t change anything till you’re testing or have the libre

prozinc is a good insulin too so I think you should give it some time and see how he reacts to it.
 
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Also every cat is different. Some cats are on 7 units a day and when they’re eating dry food, they tend to be on higher doses. Don’t despair just yet, you just started prozinc and I think once you can monitor the bg daily, you’ll be able to get him regulated. You just have to have patience. We have a saying here, felines diabetes is a marathon not a sprint. The issue right now is that you’re only getting spot checks at the vet and that’s not enough.

one more thing to consider, a lot of times by increasing by 1 full unit at a time, you skip right past the ideal dose and that could be the case here. But again, I don’t know that it’s rare to be at more than 4 units because there are a lot of other factors that can contribute to needing a higher dose. Minnie was averaging between 5 and 6 towards the end. It’s not a bad thing if it’s what they need.
 
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Also every cat is different. Some cats are on 7 units a day and when they’re eating dry food, they tend to be on higher doses. Don’t despair just yet, you just started prozinc and I think once you can monitor the bg daily, you’ll be able to get him regulated. You just have to have patience. We have a saying here, felines diabetes is a marathon not a sprint. The issue right now is that you’re only getting spot checks at the vet and that’s not enough.

one more thing to consider, a lot of times by increasing by 1 full unit at a time, you skip right past the ideal dose and that could be the case here. But again, I don’t know that it’s rare to be at more than 4 units because there are a lot of other factors that can contribute to needing a higher dose. Minnie was averaging between 5 and 6 towards the end. It’s not a bad thing if it’s what they need.

Thank you, this is very encouraging. My husband and I have resolved on what we feel is a good course of action if what we’re told is “add more insulin” at Iago’s next visit. I want that Libre first.
 
A few last thoughts before I go to bed :cat:

the readings at the vet’s office are always going to be higher because cats are stressed out. You’ll get the real numbers when you test at home. If you’re willing to try home test again, we can give you tips to make it easier like always giving a treat immediately after each test, whether it’s a success or not, to build positive association.

I’m going to remove my comment about Lantus because I missed when you said you’re already on prozinc. I think you should stick with it for now.

If you have time, it would be a good idea to read all the yellow sticky notes in our prozinc forum. You’ll find lots of very useful info: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/
 
The food other than Dr. Elsey's that Ale was referring to is Young Again Zero Carb. It's not really zero carb but it is low in carbohydrates.

I also want to point out the most if not all of the prescription diabetic dry foods are NOT low in carbohydrates. There is also nothing that is prescription-worthy in those foods. In fact, the pet food manufacturers lost a class action suit for calling foods "prescription" when there is nothing medically relevant in those diets. In other words, it's a scam. You would do far better with either of the two low carbohydrate dry foods noted and avoid the diabetic dry food at all costs. Even several of the canned diabetic foods are high in carbs.
 
And a few things to note about the Libre. It’s expensive and it only lasts for about 2 weeks. That means every 2 weeks, a new one needs to be put on her. Some members here are okay with that and it’s what they’ve used on their cats ever since the diagnosis. Just wanted you to be aware.

If you don’t think that would work long term for you since your vet is now over an hour away, my suggestion would be to get it and use those 2 weeks to work on getting him used to home testing.

You said he flattened his ears but another option is to test his paw instead of the ear. You may or may not get a better response. I hear it works for some of the cats here but I never personally tried it on mine.

You can also start “practice testing” on him. You can work on getting him used to you holding and massaging his ear. I’d give him a treat every time you do that, whether he struggles or not. You can then slowly increase how long you’re massaging his ear for and once you feel he’s okay with it, you can try to just hold the lancet against his ear. You’re not testing, you’re just mimicking what test will be like for him to hopefully get him used to it. It’s amazing what cats can get used to once they have had time to adjust. Minnie was also diagnosed with asthma after the diabetes and I thought she’d never in a million years let me hold the mask to her face for 10 breaths. I started by just holding the mask, without any medication, to her face for 1 second which was not even 1 breath, and I increased from there slowly every day. Always gave her a treat and eventually she went from getting up and walking away to letting me sometimes hold it on her face for 15 breaths or more! I could be wrong but I think if you do this for 2 weeks, you may just start to get a better reaction from him.

okay treats are any freeze dried treats, baby food, or even regular chicken or turkey, cheese or those lick-able sticks.
 
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I also want to add something that will help with home testing. Cats are very sensitive to how we act and will respond the same way. So if you are nervous when trying to test, he will pick up on it and be nervous also. One trick to help you is to sing while testing. The sillier the song the better. Yes it sounds like ridiculous advice but it works. It is hard to be nervous when you are doing something silly. :D

Also always reward him with a low carb treat even when the test is not successful. You want him to learn to associate testing with getting a reward. Freeze dried chicken is a great treat. You can reward yourself with a piece of chocolate too. :p
 
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