What do you know about delta's and PZI/Prozinc?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Allie

Member
So in keeping with my plan, I upped steve's dose today from 1.0 to 1.5 BID. His morning PS number was 388. He received 1.5U. At +6 he was BG 90. The PMPS was 319 so I went ahead and gave him the 1.5 dose, but still this seems like a really high difference between the high and the low. From my reading, I determined this is called a delta and this is kind of high, but I couldn't comprehend a definitive reason from my reading why it happens. I did get that it could happen when you change dose, but I didn't understand why. Anyone want to attempt to explain why this happens and help this newbie understand this phenomena. Or if no one knows....does anyone care to make an educated guess?
 
allie would you pm gator and H...he will love this subject. i imagine he is just the person you want on this.
 
Lori it's so funny how people on boards start knowing everyone's interests. Sure enough Gator is interested! Yay!

Sue and Gator, Thanks for the links. More reading is in order for me! I feel like I am back in college studying for Biology finals. Luckily I have Steve as a motivator now...I always preferred geology, chemistry, and physics to biology.

Gator, I understand that the insulin has a peak and then it tapers off which is the delta. What I don't understand is the mechanism the delta being so big. Yesterday Steve had a 300pt delta. I believe that a dose increase will cause a bigger delta (he got a .5U dose increase yesterday). But I don't know the underlying 'why' for when this happens. If that is explained in the links, don't worry about reexplaining here, I will find it.

Thanks,
Allie
 
There are a whole bunch of things that can cause large deltas. And even then sometimes one is just left scratching their head.

It appears one of the topics we did not get to in the PZI Sticky links is "Wow." Often on the first cycle of an increase in dose - yours was fairly large - going from 1u to 1.5u, they will get "good" numbers or show a larger reaction to that dose than they might normally. This is one reason why fixed dosing strategies are liked [especially for beginners] - so that you don't just base you future dosing on the cats reaction to a dosing on just one cycle's data.

Now I'm not saying that is what happened that cycle but it's one possibility.

Another thing. Many have found that it takes a while for the kitty to get used to ProZinc - or heck for that matter any insulin. There is kind of this unwritten "45 day" rule. Many here have noticed that it can take up to 6 weeks for the kitty and bean to get used to the whole thing. Even though I had good success with PZI Vet and thought I knew what I was doing, when I switch to ProZinc it took us about that long to realize things were not perfectly right and to reevaluate and more forward then reach some success. The nadir too during that 45 day period can move around which may be impacted by just the kitty getting used to it as well as the dose changing and getting more into the range that they actually need.

Another thing that can impact large deltas is feeding. If they do not get much food after you shoot and until onset or nadir, then then can drop big. This is one reason why most here prefer free feeding [if possible and you don't have a hoover kitty]. According to SACN 4th ed Chapter 6 - normal cats should eat 10-20 small meals per 24hr. So if you cannot free feed then many folks try to approximate that with timed feeders like the PetSafe 5. The idea related to the curve is that smoother feeding has less effect on the curve. Some though in the past have used food to effect the curve [not one of my areas of expertise]. Also if one is not on a low carb diet then that can possibly show up in big drops because more insulin is needed to counteract the carbs.

Health issues can be behind large deltas too - but certainty not always or anything like that.

Now there's another pattern too that I suspect has to do with the duration of the insulin. The duration of PZI including ProZinc is not the same in every kitty. So if one is not able to keep the PSs even or trending down slightly with also having consistently unmanageably large deltas then there is the possibility that continuing patterns of very large deltas might be related to the duration of the insulin in one's kitty. If it is an ongoing and otherwise unexplainable/correctable pattern that's preventing regulation or achieving the goals they wish, then one should be considering TID dosing or another longer acting insulin. Some have been successful using TID with PZI/ProZinc to get things under control then transition to BID. Perhaps too a timed feeding regime might be able to influence the curve to prevent large deltas. Again that's not my expertise and I have not personally seen it be successful but that doesn't mean much. Kristen's Sam was having large deltas and was trying one routine but decided to abandon that experiment.

And lastly I'm probably forgetting or omitting something. These are cats, and well they aren't perfect - sometimes they just like to mess with our heads.
 
Allie said:
I understand that the insulin has a peak and then it tapers off which is the delta. What I don't understand is the mechanism the delta being so big. I believe that a dose increase will cause a bigger delta (he got a .5U dose increase yesterday). But I don't know the underlying 'why' for when this happens.

Just wanted to clarify that delta is simply the difference between the high & the low #s (in any context). You may have meant that. :)

There are lots of subtle factors as to why they get the drop they get, but the bottom line (for the delta and also for the duration to some extent) is simply dose size. More insulin = greater delta and longer duration. (Discounting for the moment any complicating factors that will change that basic formula.) It sounds like you may be interested in the actual mechanics of how the insulin works, which I can't really help you with, but it seems logical to me (so maybe I'm not understanding your question?). More insulin in their system means the insulin will attack the sugar in their blood (or however it actually works) and that will lead to lower BGs compared to less insulin in their system.

With PZI my understanding is that you want a delta of around 60% give or take 5-10%. More than that tends to be too much of a drop, less than that tends to be ineffective. In my experience it is more useful to evaluate your PSs and nadirs in terms of the % drop rather than in absolute #s. If you are seeing an 80% drop you would want to consider lowering your dose (unless you are aiming for something like that to get out of high #s), and if you are seeing a drop of say 40%, you would want to consider increasing the dose (unless you already have a nadir on the low side and don't want to risk going lower).

So you can't simply deduct yesterday's delta from today's PS and predict the nadir that way. Often the drop will be bigger from a high PS than the same dose on a lower PS - there's sort of a compression effect where it's easy to get a big drop off a high #, but from a lower PS (for some cats) the curve will often be shallower. Which is a good thing really, but can be confusing for dosing until you start to get a feel for the curve patterns.

The thing with insulin is you won't ever find the kind of 1-1 logic that some of us seek. :? You can do some math with it and sometimes the #s cooperate with that, but a lot of times you can't simply correlate that x dose increase will give you y delta, or that x PS will give you y nadir. There are just a lot of factors, but you do get the hang of it after a while and can estimate fairly well a fair amount of the time.
 
Gator,
Thanks! I suspected there were things besides dose changes that would affect delta, but I wasn't sure. You did a very good job explaining the high points to someone really new to testing BG.

Joanna,
The info about the percentages was quite helpful. I'd seen that before SOMEWHERE, but then I couldn't find it again. Having it posted in one of my posts will help me keep track of it (I hope) :smile: .

On a side but very important note, I read that you very recently lost your cat. Losing a kitty is so hard, you have my very deepest sympathies.

Allie
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top