I'm having to reduce Milo's food as he is putting on weight. He is currently on 7IU Lantus twice a day. Other things being equal (i.e. discounting his BG levels) is weight gain normally a sign the dose is just right, too high or too low? I would say he is now 10% overweight, 6.6kg instead of 6kg.
weight gain
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Dyana
Member Since 2009
What are Milo's BG numbers?
All I know right now, is that if you want to reduce his weight, you should do it very very gradually.
Here is a good article written by a veterinarian Dr. Lisa A. Pierson DVM who sometimes posts on this site Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
All I know right now, is that if you want to reduce his weight, you should do it very very gradually.
Here is a good article written by a veterinarian Dr. Lisa A. Pierson DVM who sometimes posts on this site Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
thanks for the overweight link. Milo just nadir'd at 5.8/104 (plasma/serum meter) six hours after injection when he was 8.9/160. He's on 8 IU Lantus BID. When I have solid data I'll put up a SS.
What I was really after was is it normal for him to be gaining weight when being injected? Assuming his curve is good and in that range is it a sign he is getting too much Lantus or not enough?
What I was really after was is it normal for him to be gaining weight when being injected? Assuming his curve is good and in that range is it a sign he is getting too much Lantus or not enough?
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
I was able to manipulate Bob's weight while he was on insulin. He put on about 2 pounds over 12 weeks or so. I just controlled the amount of calories he got every day based on a formula that estimated that he needed about 250 calories a day to get him to the weight I (and my vet) was after.
He's maintained within a few ounces give or take over the past two years using the same method.
Most diabetic cats need more than normal, calories-wise, than they would if they weren't diabetic, at least until their numbers are not well regulated.
Looking at the numbers you've mentioned, Milo's numbers are pretty much under good control, IMO. If he's gaining weight, he's getting more than enough calories. But like Dyana said, if you cut back on his food, you'd want to do so gradually, or you might end up in a situation where the insulin acts like "too much".
He's maintained within a few ounces give or take over the past two years using the same method.
Most diabetic cats need more than normal, calories-wise, than they would if they weren't diabetic, at least until their numbers are not well regulated.
Looking at the numbers you've mentioned, Milo's numbers are pretty much under good control, IMO. If he's gaining weight, he's getting more than enough calories. But like Dyana said, if you cut back on his food, you'd want to do so gradually, or you might end up in a situation where the insulin acts like "too much".
Phoebe_TiggyGA_NortonGA
Member Since 2009
Have you had Milo tested for Acromegaly and IAA?
Acromegaly is a condition that causes diabetes and weight gain -- it is a tumor on the pituitary gland that causes excess growth hormone, so the cat keeps growing and growing - and NOT fat, but muscle, bones, organs. This is the condition that Andre the Giant had. The diabetes is caused by the "Insulin-like Growth Factor" which interferes with the normally produced insulin of the pancreas. Acro-cats have a functioning pancreas!!
At 7U BID dose, you do seem to have a higher dose kitty --
The tests are only done by one lab in North America -- Mich State Univ. The IAA (insulin autoimmune antibody) test only costs $14 more since it is done at the same lab, so it makes sense to get both tests done at the same time. Biggest expense is the blood draw by your vet and shipping the samples to MSU
Edited: I see that you're in the UK -- the RVC does the IGF-1 test in the UK.
Acromegaly is a condition that causes diabetes and weight gain -- it is a tumor on the pituitary gland that causes excess growth hormone, so the cat keeps growing and growing - and NOT fat, but muscle, bones, organs. This is the condition that Andre the Giant had. The diabetes is caused by the "Insulin-like Growth Factor" which interferes with the normally produced insulin of the pancreas. Acro-cats have a functioning pancreas!!
At 7U BID dose, you do seem to have a higher dose kitty --
The tests are only done by one lab in North America -- Mich State Univ. The IAA (insulin autoimmune antibody) test only costs $14 more since it is done at the same lab, so it makes sense to get both tests done at the same time. Biggest expense is the blood draw by your vet and shipping the samples to MSU
Edited: I see that you're in the UK -- the RVC does the IGF-1 test in the UK.
Thanks very much I have contacted RVC and they seem helpful. I will need to go via my vet though, fair enough.
I can see no obvious signs of Acro in Milo apart from the weight gain and insulin resistance, but the weight seems to be fat not organs and I suspect he is only resistant to Lantus (well Caninsulin used to work).
I can see no obvious signs of Acro in Milo apart from the weight gain and insulin resistance, but the weight seems to be fat not organs and I suspect he is only resistant to Lantus (well Caninsulin used to work).
dbdb said:
I take it that you are not familiar with the signs of acromegaly because your cat has TWO of them
1. high dose of insulin, provided the diet is low carb wet food.
2. weight gain
Caninsulin is a horrible medium lasting insulin; I stgarted on that insulin with my first acro cat.
Your impression that the caninsulin was working may be due to the fact that your cat was not needing much insulin at that time, but as acros do, your cat's needs have increased.
If you are feeding a low carb wet food diet and giving your cat 8u of Lantus twice a day, you likely have a cat with acromegaly.
Gayle
Blue said:
Please read my post carefully. I did say I can see no signs of acro "apart from weight gain and insulin resistance". I then proceded to explain why those two symptoms were not overly concerning to me - (1) the weight gain is not in organs or bones (acro symptoms) but seems to be fat and (2) his insulin resistance seems to be only Lantus whereas I would expect it to apply to Caninsulin too with acro.
I can't see any of the other signs like large paws or head (accepted that these may be later symptoms) and the Vet didn't see any signs, plus acro is (arguably) rare, however I am looking into getting him tested for it.
Blue said:
Is 8 IU BID a lot? It seems a lot to me but the Acrco specialist vet at RVC wrote to me on Friday "As Milo is a large cat, his insulin dose is not quite suggestive of insulin resistance yet, even though 8 units would be a large dose for most cats."
I see on this forum lots of cats on 1IU, 1.5IU etc.. and so keep thinking 8IU is too high, hence I have been trying to reduce it. Possibly I should accept that he needs that amount (or more) . He certainly seems to at the moment.
Milo's change from dry mature food to dry low carb food (he is not on wet) has made no difference. I find it hard to believe the addition of water (i.e. a wet food) will help much more than that, he has plenty of access to water and drinks plenty. However I am aware there are stong feelings about dry food here.
Larry and Kitties
Member Since 2009
ECID. The insulin needs depend upon the specific cat.
One other negative indicator for acro is the ketosis Milo had in January, apparently this is rare in acro cats see this useful page http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/endocrine_system/the_pituitary_gland/feline_acromegaly.html : :smile: . He is however male and the right age :sad: .
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
Hill's M/d is high in calories. 495 kcal/cup per Hill's website. http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd...-low-carbohydrate-glucose-management-dry.html
The Hill's M/d is 15.1% per the Hill's website for the dry, 14% for the canned per Dr. Lisa Pierson website http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf
Cats can be carb sensitive. Lowering the carb percentage in the food further may have an impact on the BG numbers.
We look for those foods with under 10% carbs, under 6 % for some of our cats.
AAHA Diabetes Management guidelines advise feeding wet food with the lowest carb content the cat will eat because of the lower caloric density and ease of portion control.
http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
The food you are feeding, which IIRC is Hills m/d, doesn't"qualify" as a low carb food. The %cals from carbs is 12%-13%.
Wet food isn't just dry food + water. And you're right. Simply adding water isn't going to do much. He can drink five gallons of water a day and it isn't going to lower his numbers. If Milo is drinking water, it's a sign that he's not getting his required moisture from his food. And a sign of diabetes. I think the same is true for many "diet controlled" diabetic cats, but my cat, Bob, eats only low carb canned, and he never drinks from a water bowl. He used to drink like a fish when he was on dry, even before the diabetes.
From Catinfo.org:
dbdb said:
There are acro cats who have NO VISIBLE acro signs. My first acro was a tiny female with little paws, a heart shaped face and nothing at all indicated acromegaly except that her dose of insulin kept rising, and got to 9u..... but the vets said no need to test as she is small, is female, and just doesn't look acro. Well, they were WRONG. She developed other signs OVER TIME. She kept her small paws, but developed a very large pot belly, and her highest dose went up to 21u BID.
There have been acro cats who have not looked acro at all, got up to only 6u BID and then went off insulin.... the cat tested positive for acromegaly. I know of the cat who was tested at the 6u dose because the vet had another client with an acro and recognized the resistance.
My second acro does look like he has acromegaly and his highest dose was 37u BID, but he got sick from vaccines, and went off insulin in 10days. He hasn't needed insulin for 18months, but he's still acro.
Your experts may think they know but without having the test done, neither your nor they know for sure. How many signs do you want before thinking of testing your cat? Weight gain and high dose are two of the main ones that almost all acros have.
The very BEST dry food is much worse than the very WORST wet food for a diabetic or acromegalic cat, so switching to what is claimed to be a low carb or no carb dry food is not good enough.
For all you know, you could switch to a proper diet for a diabetic cat and your cat's needs could drop considerably, but if you switch foods to wet and there is no drop at all, it is time for the IGF-1 and IAA tests.
Gayle
ETA: I just realized the 3rd sign of acro in your cat.... SIZE.
You have no idea how many acros are large in size.... most of them.
You will not see many acros posting on this board, but my acros were not at all that high of a dose when compared to others.
You can resist to change the diet; that's your choice, but there have been too many cats who have shown to be DIET CONTROLLED just by switching to wet food, and don't think it's just water added to dry food.... that's a silly statement.
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