Vetsilun to PZI

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cychow

cychow

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Hi to all the new peeps and hello again to all the veterans!

Yeh I'm back out of lurking mode. I ran out of Vetsilun and because of the holidays the vet decides to take off Friday to Tuesday off. I ran out of Vetsilun on Tuesday. I scratched up enough for a 1/2 unit shot around 2am last night/this morning.

I had to take Aumi to the vet because they discontinued the insulin and the vet is putting Aumi on PZI. He's been feeling sick and not wanting to eat. Before the Nightly Tuesday 3rd TID meal, he was all fine and doing his usual seek me out to let me know, "Hey, time to eat". After than since I couldn't give him a shot, he's been feeling sick.

The vet is doing a blood work and urine analysis (yikes, I forgot how much that digs into the wallet). I got him home and I feed him a little through a syringe and give him a 1/2 unit shot after his PM test. Going to run a curve and see how it act with him.

He threw it up though afterward. Anyone have a good idea what I should feed him until he settles down a little? Was it Chicken Broth or Beef broth? Something that isn't going to upset his stomach. He hates the vet and stresses out about it so that didn't help. I'll see about feeding him again in an hour and see if it hold down. I been mixing some Pedilyte with some water to keep him from dehydrating.

Also, any good advice from switching over from Vetsilun to PZI other than what I've read so far?

Thanks.
 
I don't know what you've read so far. PZI is nothing like Vetsulin. Is it Prozinc or a different PZI?

I've heard that baby food meat varieties intice them to eat when they don't want to.

What have his bg's been?

Welcome back.

Robin
 
The curve started at 381 @ +0. I shot at 1/2 a unit. It's 362 @ +3 right now but I've also been feeding him some fish. I've blended it into paste.

I've not read everything yet so I'm not sure if they are similar or not. Did I say that? If so, sorry. I didn't mean to say that. I figure I'd just start at 1u. I did 1/2 because he threw up the food I gave him. I've been giving him some food (1/2 tps per hour) and he's taking the pasty tuna.

This happened before because I messed up this shooting schedule but I did the Pediyte and feeding through the syringe, checking for ketones and he got back on schedule.. The only difference now is I'm switching to PZI.
 
Rob & Harley said:
I don't know what you've read so far. PZI is nothing like Vetsulin. Is it Prozinc or a different PZI?
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Oh, It's Prozinc. Sorry, missed the question.
 
Awwww, sorry he's not feeling well. I'd check on Health for tummy tips & also Pedialyte (sp?). Are you sure it's safe for cats? I have no idea, but I know there are some things that have come up (like baby enemas) where there are ingredients you can't use for cats, so just wanted to mention it.

We switched from Vetsulin to PZI, and several others around did as well.

The biggest differences I noticed are that PZI doesn't kick in quite as fast (onset is often around +2), nadir is a little later (we got around +4 on Vetsulin, vs. around +6 on PZI), and for Bix lasts longer than Vetsulin did, though that isn't true for all cats.

PZI is also a little more variable from what I've seen, I mean Bix's response to it. With Vetsulin you can set your clock by the drop they'll get, and can often predict the nadir pretty well. With PZI, if the dose is too low they'll often just ride high, and then you increase by a tiny amount, and all of a sudden good #s. I've found it less predictable and more confusing to dose, but made up for big time by the better duration Bix gets on PZI.
 
Joanna & Bix said:
Awwww, sorry he's not feeling well. I'd check on Health for tummy tips & also Pedialyte (sp?). Are you sure it's safe for cats? I have no idea, but I know there are some things that have come up (like baby enemas) where there are ingredients you can't use for cats, so just wanted to mention it.
Click to expand...

I believe so. Worked great last time.


Joanna & Bix said:
We switched from Vetsulin to PZI, and several others around did as well.

The biggest differences I noticed are that PZI doesn't kick in quite as fast (onset is often around +2), nadir is a little later (we got around +4 on Vetsulin, vs. around +6 on PZI), and for Bix lasts longer than Vetsulin did, though that isn't true for all cats.

PZI is also a little more variable from what I've seen, I mean Bix's response to it. With Vetsulin you can set your clock by the drop they'll get, and can often predict the nadir pretty well. With PZI, if the dose is too low they'll often just ride high, and then you increase by a tiny amount, and all of a sudden good #s. I've found it less predictable and more confusing to dose, but made up for big time by the better duration Bix gets on PZI.
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OK thanks, great info to know. :)
 
Morning,

We are using Prozinc too.

If I repeat Joanna I'm sorry. Prozinc has a longer duration, between 10 to 14 hours. But it has some kwirky things about it, in the beginning the nadir can move around, dose changes can send their bg's pinballing around for a day or two. There seems to be a 45 day settling in period where they can be very unpredictable but around 45 days the seem to settle in and even out, I'm not sure why.

As with other insulins they say to start with 1 unit twice a day and go from there. Are you going to set up a spreadsheet.

Welcome back.
 
Rob & Harley said:
Morning,

We are using Prozinc too.

If I repeat Joanna I'm sorry. Prozinc has a longer duration, between 10 to 14 hours. But it has some kwirky things about it, in the beginning the nadir can move around, dose changes can send their bg's pinballing around for a day or two. There seems to be a 45 day settling in period where they can be very unpredictable but around 45 days the seem to settle in and even out, I'm not sure why.

As with other insulins they say to start with 1 unit twice a day and go from there. Are you going to set up a spreadsheet.

Welcome back.
Click to expand...

OK thanks for the info. Definitely way different than Vetsilun and I'm really hoping this one lasts longer for Aumi. TID was getting really tedious after a year. lol It would be nice to get him on a BID schedule.

I have a spread sheet I set up on my computer but I'll be setting one up again on google so I can share.
 
OK, he's still weak and lethargic but the doc called and said the blood work looked fine. He has some Ketones but she said to keep hand feeding him and get his level back down and see how the Prozinc does for him. I'm a bit worried about him being weak and Lethargic like this but this happened once before (other than the first time when we found he was Diabetic) and I hand fed him until he was walking around stronger and started to eat by himself.

The trick is not to keep hounding him. :/ I have a tendency to do that and bug him all the time when I check up on him.
 
I would be worried about the ketones. Are you checking his urine with Kitostix? You don't want that to get out of controll, it can go very bad very fast. Make sure he's hydrated.

You can get Ketostix at any pharmacy for $15 or less. If he isn't potty shy, I just wave it around behind Harley when he's going, to check.
 
Rob & Harley said:
I would be worried about the ketones. Are you checking his urine with Kitostix? You don't want that to get out of controll, it can go very bad very fast. Make sure he's hydrated.

You can get Ketostix at any pharmacy for $15 or less. If he isn't potty shy, I just wave it around behind Harley when he's going, to check.
Click to expand...

Yeh I have strips. But it's hard to catch him at the litter box right now since his schedule is off so I try when I can to catch him. I wish there was an easier way. I still haven't heard much about using the meters to check ketones. Has that gotten anywhere lately about using them?

I'm keeping him watered down as much as I can.
 
I thought the meters were good? Data is fresh, vs. pee data which is hours old? I haven't followed too closely. I know there are some who use them - I think the biggest obstacle is the price of test strips. Might post on Health for more info - the only person I can think of who used one switched to Lantus I think, not sure if she is around much.

TID for a year, wow. Switching insulins can be tricky with ketones. You can shoot PZI TID, some have done really well with that when it's warranted - duration seems to vary a lot from cat to cat. If he was regulated on Vetsulin though, hopefully the switch will go smoother, vs. a cat just starting on insulin, where lots of times they'll sit in high #s a long time.

I don't know too much about ketones - fluids, make sure they eat, get as much insulin as you can in them w/o causing hypo, take to vet if you can if the level is higher than trace, I think that's what I've read.

Hope he is feeling better soon. It's tough not to hover when they are sick, but you're right, hounding them doesn't make them any better - if it did, pretty much all our kitties would be in perfect health!!! :lol:
 
Maybe some appetite stimulants [like cyproheptadine] can help get through the immediate inappetance? Also subQ fluids can help a little with the keytones if you are already not doing that. You just need to thread the needle here as it were.

Sorry If I'm late to the game here and missed any details.
 
Hmmm I should take a look around and see if those meter for ketones work or if they advanced anything about em.

Hi Gator! I knew I forgot to ask my vet about SubQ. I'll try calling and see if I need to get hooked up with some.

So far, 1u is lasting 8+ right now so it's an odd change for me as well. I just hoping he'll feel better soon. It's a little be more alert now. So something is going right. Still lazy'ing about and not wanna eat on his own though sometimes it looks like he wants food.
 
You are in the right place. Please ask any questions, stop being a lurker, I am STILL learning from the folks here. There are no stupid questions. There are a few men [like you] who understand the term "loyalty" when it come to their kitties.

Where are you approx?
 
Gator & H (GA) said:
You are in the right place. Please ask any questions, stop being a lurker, I am STILL learning from the folks here. There are no stupid questions. There are a few men [like you] who understand the term "loyalty" when it come to their kitties.

Where are you approx?
Click to expand...


Oh yeh I'mma a animal lover... :) I'm over in the Valley in North Hollywood.
 
cychow said:
Oh yeh I'mma a animal lover... :) I'm over in the Valley in North Hollywood.
Click to expand...
Ah cool!

BTW I have about 1/2 bottle of ProZinc [leftover from H] that I would love to give to someone if they could use it. If it is something you think you want/could use, if you are even on the West Side you are more than welcome to pick it up [PM me ahead of time] or if I'm up near NoHo I'll try to remember to PM you ahead and I could drop it off. And if there is ever anything else I can help with please let me know. I also have some leftover LRS fluids here if you get in a pickle.

Speaking of the LRS fluids there is a good site about them here:
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2r6 ... /local.htm
I get them cheaply from Costco [you do not need to be a Costco member to use the pharmacy]. You can have you vet prescribe a case of them for you which is 12 1000 ml bags or 12,000ml .
I get needles and IV sets [without Rx] from
http://www.shopmedvet.com
I like the 21g x 1" Terumo needles
http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/terum ... nd-needles
and the cheapo IV sets
http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/122/i ... ation-sets
 
Joanna & Bix said:
Looks like you are starting to get a nice response on the 1u, whew! Hope he is starting to feel better. :-D
Click to expand...

He's feeling better ya, but he still laying about. He's more alert though. This Prozinc needs getting used to. The last shot I changed up to feeding him a bit of Fancy Feast stuff and now his BG levels just dropped pretty fast. For Prozinc, do you drop back for a more shallow longer curve?
 
Dropping the dose can make the curve more shallow, but will usually shorten duration. His nadir looks pretty late on that blue cycle you got, compared to many cats. Curious. Sometimes a late-ish nadir can be a sign the dose is a hair too high, but I'm not sure that's the case here since the #s look good. Could be the food changed the normal timing, or could be just some settling in to ProZinc (they say the nadir moves around some in the first few weeks), or could be he is just going to get long duration out of it, which is nice! If you are getting a number too low to shoot though by PMPS, makes sense to lower the dose a little in the AM so you can stick to 12/12 shooting.
 
The number are so whacky. Now that he's starting to eat again and his appetite is coming back the numbers starts getting whacked out because he feels like eating at odd times. Right now, I'm not going to deny him food if he wants to eat. He just got back to eating himself even though it's little bits here and there.

He's almost back to regular "whiney love me feed me" cat mode and he's tromping strongly up and downstairs again.

Any advice here? Should I try and get him on a schedule now? or just wait a while and just do a shoot when the curve goes up again?

This insulin is very weird to get used to after using vetsulin. One little adjustment in the unit and it act very different. I'm wondering it I should see if the Vet can get me a prescription to get 100-u syringes.
 
That's really great he's eating better, I agree let him eat as much as he wants.

You can get the syringes from Hocks w/o a script. I think there is a link in the PZI sticky up top, or if not one of us can post one. You want 0.3cc ones with 1/2 unit markings, they'll have a short needle.

PZI technically you can shoot as long as you have a rising # and are past nadir. I had a hard time getting the dose right when I tried that, but some people have a lot of success. If you can see he isn't getting good duration you can do TID, or as-needed.

His #s look to me like pretty good duration though, so I would try a higher BID dose. I'd raise in 0.2 increments, or maybe go right to 1.4 or 1.5, and then switch to 0.2 increments if more is needed after that. You want something like a 60% drop from PS to nadir on PZI, so I think you have some room at this point.

Sometimes you will see a good cycle like that blue one you had on PZI, but then their body overcomes the dose and you lose the good #s. Seems to be a PZI thing (though of course his blue cycle could be from other things, like eating patterns).
 
Joanna & Bix said:
Sometimes you will see a good cycle like that blue one you had on PZI, but then their body overcomes the dose and you lose the good #s. Seems to be a PZI thing (though of course his blue cycle could be from other things, like eating patterns).
Click to expand...

I'll check out hocks then. Might be cheaper than getting it from the vet anyways.

Yeh on his blue run, he wasn't eating much. I was easing him back into it since he threw up that time but I really think that was from the vet stress since it was right when I got him home and I needed to get a shot in him. I wanna try and get back to BID. TID is kinda tough to do all the time. I was hoping this was a good thing I'd get out of it switching to PZI. lol

I'll try and figure it out but right now his system is still get used to PZI I take it. It took a couple of weeks for his system to get steady with Vetsulin when I was able to really control the numbers.
 
Hi all.

Aumi's change to PZI was doing so well and we were getting it worked out for him. This Friday he started to breath heavy at time. I wasn't sure why and didn't think much of it. Then the next day he would lay there breathing heavy. I don't know why he always seem to pick the weekends when the vet is closed to decide to have something odd go wrong. :/ But Sunday, he'd often squirm to get air and was really haven't problem breathing. My friend drove down and gave me and Aumi a ride to the emergency vet where after X-rays, found that Aumi's chest cavity and lung were full of fluid.

After many questions about what might be wrong (viral infection which was highly unlikely she said being an indoor cat, heart congestive failure or cancer). I had to make an awful decision. :( The hardest I ever had to. I don't even know if I made the right one. I didn't care about the cost, I had no problem getting the money if I really needed to but I kept seeing him at home earlier pawing the floor and readjusting just to get air. Then seeing the look in the Docs eyes as she explained the options and added that it's most likely going to turn out bad either way with the short time given that this happened so extreme, I had to let him go. I made a stupid logical decision on the spot. Something I don't think I made correctly.

I dunno. I'll post this in the grief forum. But I wanted to thank everyone who posted to help Aumi get from Vetsilun to PZI.

Chung
 
OMG! I am so very sorry for your loss! Please try not to second guess your decision. I have been doing that for the past year and a half since I let my kitty Ty go, and it only makes this that much harder. You made the decision to take on the difficulty and the pain so that Aumi could fly free, and that is the best decision you could've made.

(((CHUNG)))
 
Oh my goodness. I'm very sorry to hear this. You are obviously a rare and dedicated cat dad. Aumi will always be with you in your heart. It gets easier over time - hang in there. Keep the good things in your life that she brought you.

I was lucky enough to have a friend take H and I to the vet too. H was very not right/ok that day and my friend was like the objective witness to how bad off he was. I think your friend probably saw how Aumi was, if you don't trust you own decision yet trust their observation.
 
(((((((Chung))))))) Awww, I am so sorry to read this. Your vet was absolutely right and it sounds like you made the right decision. I had a kitty with cancer who died from her lungs filling up like that, and I can tell you euthanasia before it gets to its worst is absolutely the right choice. I'll spare the gorey details, but just want to make it absolutely clear that you did the right thing, and spared him more suffering. I know the loss can make you feel like you did the wrong thing, but that is your mind tricking you - just ignore it, and know in your heart that you did what was best.

fly free sweet Aumi.... rb_icon
 
Thank you all for the kind words. It really helps. I've gotten a better about it since reading your replies. :)

Chung
 
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