Vet even after a year and he’s not well now says don’t test him eat home…

Discussion in 'Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH' started by Rachellerocky, Aug 1, 2022.

  1. Rachellerocky

    Rachellerocky New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2022
    Last June diagnosed gave me vestalin 1 unit 2 weeks later give 2 u it’s no c/m up needed. So I think vet knows best…. So this year he doesn’t want to eat I called they are like he needs to eat whatever before his shot. Ok so I gave friskie broth or ggravy anything to get him to eat before his shot. Which is now 3 units 2x a day. He’s still off I take him back around June this year . Told her we had been prefilling syringes she’s like oh no you can’t do that. I said well you d said not to shake insulin. Or I read that I had no direction whatsoever, when I asked about shaking she says she didn’t know she would go look it up. So she said very gently make sure it is mixed. Ok . Since June every two weeks I take him back he’s worse with BG so then 3 weeks ago rx pro plan wet and dry. And by the way I’ve seen 2 vets at th e office and asked should I check his blood at home. They both said no too traumatic . And unreliable I trust and be I’ve. Yesterday afternoon no way was he eating. I syringe fed him to give his vestalin 5 units. Got online a resucue group told me about she has a diabetic cat as well so I found my way here. Took him to vet first thing this am he’s not critical vet says but numbers are up from blood done 2 months ago and he lost a pound. He said what him for 24 hours gave me appetite stimulus put on while at the vet this am. This afternoon a friend stopped over from the rescue she checked his blood i651 I it was 581 at vet mind you I know stress at vet and my shy boy seeing a new person. I have a meter coming tomorrow. My one I bought last night for people we couldn’t get enough blood for it to r goiter. So dr. Said now do 6 units of vestalin 2 times a day. Monitor for 24 hour . That was it . I’m like monitor what. How would I know if something is off. He’s lethargic tonight he had a day. My force feeding and crying the whole time I tried. It didn’t go well.why would my vet keep insisting I not k his blood. Now that I saw it done and I did it with her, it wasn’t easy though she had a difficult time getting a sample from his ear and she does it everyday. I’m sure I can do. How long should I force feed this boy. He hated it. I’m just so upset for him he’s getting worse. And no more rx food proplan dm. Done. Any suggestion once I get my monitor how do I know how much to give with the reading. I am switching vets from what everyone has shared with me. I’m worried about him beyond I wish I had not just done everything vet said and research myself better. I don’t know a lot about diabetes . Thank you all for any help. So sorry I wrote a novel.
     
  2. Rachellerocky

    Rachellerocky New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2022
    So sorry for any misspelled words or sentences.I slept maybe 2 hours last night. I’m crosseyed with trying to read and learn better for BB
     
  3. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    6 units of Vetsulin is huge...and that 500+ number makes me suspicious of an overdose (dropping far too low and fast then shooting way back up, we call it bouncing, it's a protective mechanism in the liver).

    Can you pick up ketone test strips? And test his urine? We always get concerned about DKA with diabetic cats. Another possibility is pancreatitis.

    Definitely home test. Prioritize getting tests in before the shot, and again about 4 hours later. Both day and night. You may find he's high for a few days in a row, then drops drastically.

    You'll also want a hypo kit - https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/jojo-and-bunnys-hypo-tool-box.2354/

    Depending on the ketone results, I'd suggest a drastic reduction in dose.

    Can you give specific links to the food he's currently eating?
     
  4. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    When a cat's ears are first being tested, they don't always bleed as well -- it takes time. What really helps is go warm their ears. I had a very small glass bottle (some people use pill bottles) and I would fill it with warm/hot (not too hot) water before trying to get blood. You are aiming for the outside edge of the ear -- not the vein itself, but just to the outside of the ear (just inside the edge of the ear.) I will try to find the photo. It's always a challenge at first, but gets easier.

    I am very happy that you will begin testing at home. It is crazy advice for a vet to say not to test and to direct you to give 6 units - very dangerous! I have no doubt that you need to lower his dose. I know Melissa asked about the ketones and I hope you have found some ketone testing strips for urine. Keto Stix or Keto Diastix are fine.
     
  5. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    And yes, Vetsulin does need to be gently rolled back and forth on a flat surface before you give it -- and yes, your kitty needs to eat first before giving insulin -- a meal and then about 30 minutes later the shot. If he's not eating, I would not give the insulin. Vetsulin is a harsh insulin and isn't really recommended for cats, but it's all you have right now. If you get a new vet, perhaps you can get a better insulin for him. If you are feeding high carb food, you may want to stop insulin, start home testing, feed low carb wet food and then see what his blood glucose readings are before deciding how much to give. BUT, we would like to know if ketones are present before making any of those changes, okay? That's very important.
     
  6. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    For your hypo kit


    Between 11% and 17% is medium carbs.

    18% and over is high carb. and some honey

    Such as
    Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Beef Feast in Gravy 20% High Carbs

    Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Gourmet Chicken Feast in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

    Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Turkey Feast in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

    Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers Chicken and Beef in Gravy 15% Med Carbs

    Good idea to mark the cans with magic marker how many carbs

    Or any on the food chart.

    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-

    Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
    When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
    Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
    You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for aboutsugar
    econds until it stops
    Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
    Take a look at the lancets ,you will see one side points up, that's the side you want to poke with
    A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand
    I find it better to see where I'm aiming
    You can also put a thin layer of vaseline on the ear ,to help the blood bead up
    A video one of our members posted
    VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar
    She is using a pet meter the test strips are very expensive with a human meter you don't have to code anything
     
    Suzanne & Darcy likes this.
  7. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Once you get your meter
    If you can set up your signature that would be helpful
    Here is how to set up your signature
    If you can fill out what we call our signature ,information about your kitty
    To set up your signature which you will see is at the end of everyone's post in gray, click on your name up top and then tap on the word signature and add this information

    Also please give the date when the DKA happened in your signature
    • Add info we need to help you:
      • Caregiver & kitty's name
      • DX: Date
      • Name of Insulin (do not include dose or frequency)
      • Name of your meter
      • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
      • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
      • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
      • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
      • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
      • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
    Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.

    Take a look at mine

    If you would like to set up our spreadsheet where we track our cats BG to see how the insulin is working and how low it's dropping in case you want advice here is the link , if you need help with it just ask
    We need you to set up our Spreadsheet , I'll give you the link , if you need help setting it up just ask

    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
    It will also explain how to use the spreadsheet works
    You then need to link your spreadsheet to your signature

    If you need help setting up the spreadsheet just ask and we have a member thstvwill set it up for you

    @Rachellerocky
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
  8. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Thank you, Diane. I was going to tag you, but got so busy I forgot.
     
  9. Tucker

    Tucker Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2018
    Thank you to everyone who is trying to help. I found a post from Rachelle on Facebook and asked her to join this group because she seemed in immediate need of help.
    I’m not an expert but had heard that Vetsulin was tricky and thought the dose seemed huge… and her vet had her shooting blind. She is clearly trying to do the right thing for her baby and I was hoping you could get her on the right track. I was also scared because of the high dose changes and random honey, what she was feeding and a vet who didn’t want her to home test just seemed like alarm bells to me.

    I know she will ultimately need someone to set up a spreadsheet for her. Everything in your responses makes sense to me but putting myself in her shoes it all sounds overwhelming.
    I was thinking back on how @Wendy&Neko, @Bron and Sheba (GA), @JeffJ @Bandit's Mom and others helped me when I was at square one and extremely overwhelmed and frightened for Tucker.
    I think they had me:
    The first day:
    1. Immediately swap to NO dry food and helped me choose a local low carb wet food I could afford.
    2. They had me also put together the emergency box with a few cans of gravy food and honey.
    3. Someone gave me the link to how to home test and asked me to get a human meter and use it before the morning and evening insulin and to try check the nadir half way between and had me post the number before shooting (just in case they wanted me to stall or do more tests). This only lasted a few days until they I was getting a little sleep and was less panicked and they were able to see Tucker’s pattern.
    A few days later:
    4. Someone Todd me what they wanted loaded on my background info.
    5. Someone set up a spreadsheet for me and the original thread that has lasted a couple of days while I was in a panic was swapped to a twice daily post with his pre-tests that people kept eyes on.

    I can see so much good info being shared with her already but would it be possible for someone to give her an easy list to follow as was given to me?

    Is Vetsulin her best choice or should she get a second opinion and maybe swap to Lantus or other?

    Anyway, thank you so much for getting eyes in this and for everything you are doing to try to help a newbie. This group is simply amazing!
     
    Bron and Sheba (GA) likes this.
  10. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    (This isn't meant to be short, I just have limited time to reply at the moment)

    My post #2 above covers the top priorities at the moment (read: important things I need to know to make sure this cat doesn't have a serious hypo, or on the flipside end up in DKA).

    To address your specific points (to avoid any confusion):
    1. In this case we DO NOT want to change diet. It is very likely the high carb is what is keeping him from a very serious hypo.
    2. I linked the hypo kit instructions above
    3. Diane's info above shows home testing. We absolutely do "hold hands" for the first few days especially, doubly so when we believe the cat is in immediate danger like this
    4&5 - we'll get there, but I do need the critical info requested in post 2

    It is my dream for all cats to go off Vetsulin, but for now it's what we have to work with. Occasionally a cat does do well on it, but I won't have any inkling of that until on a low carb diet (again, do NOT change diet yet).

    One step at a time. For now I need the info requested in post 2. Basically all my recommendations stem from that - dose, how to transition diet, whether a more.immediate switch in insulin may be needed, etc.
     
  11. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Please remove the 911. You have eyes on this thread. When we see 911 we think a cat is near hypo or in dka or high ketones. That way should you know quick help you can put it back.

    Bron asked me so stop by. I’ve never used Vetsulin so can’t really give dosing advice without referring to the dosing guidelines but Melissa and Suzanne can help with that since both used it. Once there’s an opportunity to see how Rocky is testing you can think about switching to Lantus, but first we do need to see what’s going on and the only way is to test. Like the others have said this seems like a very high dose and whether that’s due to bouncing high from a low number or the high carb food remains to be seen.

    We have someone that can set up your spreadsheet when you are ready. I know there’s been a lot thrown at you but what Melissa said above this is spot on.
     
    Bron and Sheba (GA) likes this.
  12. Rachellerocky

    Rachellerocky New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2022
    Yes I got ketone test strips I read up on it. I need plain clay litter which means I have to change out all 6 litter pans I have . Unless I separate BB for a few hours .never have used a format like this. I took a pic on my I pad of my spreadsheet . I see if I can figure a way to post this.. . I’m a Luddite with computer stuff haven t used a pc since 2000 .so thankful I got the tester I would’ve for sure given way too much.
     
  13. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    @Bandit's Mom can help set up a spreadsheet in just a few minutes. She will send you a pm and help you.
     
  14. Bandit's Mom

    Bandit's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2019
    Here are tips to catch and test a urine sample:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1quta5WLEjdO0Y_t2dAYSwN84h-LNZWxOdtVsJDKZ16A/pub

    I can help set up your spreadsheet and signature. Will send you a PM with the details I need. Look for it in the Inbox at the top right corner of this page.
     

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