Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with PZ

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Hello Heather, Carl and Sue. It has been six weeks since Rusty was diagnosed and put on 3U of Prozink twice a day. First 3 weeks after his initial DKA and to days on IV he did not respond well to the insulin and his BG level was 300-600 pretty much all the time. Then he started to have more pronounced curve and the BG numbers started to fall still being high (300-400 ) around PS times and really good at nadir (100-150). Since Sunday the PS numbers are higher 400-530 with nadirs 130-200. Also I haven't checked for ketones for about a week, can't make him go pee. All my tricks do not work. We let him out on the patio and sometimes he likes to explore beyond it, so maybe that's contributes to a less litter box usage. His water consumption increased compare to the last two weeks and he is not as active. His vet thinks that he is regulated now, since he has gain weight from 12,2 to 13# and more active. This high BG numbers stress me out. Is it just a matter of time before I can be better regulated? He is on FF Classic. Thank you all for your input . Janetta and Rusty
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Hi Janetta,

Good to see you again. Re the ketones. The only way we could get a test was to put Oliver Ina room with a clean box full of aquarium gravel. He wanted to "christen" the box so we'd get a sample. The urine isn't absorbed by the gravel.

It would be some helpful for you, us and your vet if you would put your numbers on a spreadsheet. Then we could see if there are any patterns with different doses etc. here are the directions:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

It's a little tricky so let us know if you need help.

Our numbers for a regulated cat are in the 200s at preshot and double digits at nadir (but of course above 40). Rusty is higher than that. The renal threshold (above which the liver and kidneys are being taxed) is around 250-270. It sound like he is often over that.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

One of the problems about going through DKA, is you are always prone to it happening again .... you NEED to test for ketones a lot! Think of ketones as the first big red flag. After ketones all you need is just one more thing like not eating, infection or? and your off to DKA again!

Quit letting him out for awhile and restrict where he does go. Put out a couple of litter boxes in the area he's in and use the tips you find here. Put in search catching pee, etc. lot's of hints. Because high #s are not good but esp. for a former DKA kitty, you might want to research adding small amount of R to his shot schedule. Same thing, put in search using R and you'll get lots of info. It also works well with pzi.

Right now my Payne has an infection and her #s are high so I've been adding in R to bring her down temp, I haven't used forever. Good luck!
Nancy and Payne ......
(also add water to his food, helps with catching pee :)
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

I think it's encouraging that he is more active and has been able to put on a little weight. :smile:

Given the numbers you listed, however, I'd hesitate to agree with the vet on "regulated". As Sue said, and it could be that our definition of regulated and the vet's are just different, we say "regulated" when you are seeing Yellow, Blue and Green numbers, with most of the time being below 250 or so.
It is odd that you are still getting decent nadir numbers but higher PS readings than you had been. I agree with Sue and Nancy (who has dealt with DKA several times) that ketones are definitely a risk, and they've offered some good tips on getting a test.

If you can set up a spreadsheet, it would be easier for us and for you to see what's really going on with Rusty. It is possible that he needs a higher dose, although 3u is fairly high compared to some other kitties. There are some who are at that level or higher though.

Carl
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Thank you Sue, Nancy and Carl for your suggestions. I will work on the spread sheet and ketons. I will post it as soon everything is ready.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Still working on the spread sheet, having some technical difficulties. The good news that Rusty is negative for ketones.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Great news about the negative ketones. If you want help with the speadsheet, send me a pm and we will figure it out. (In the lower left hand corner of my post, choose the PM button and send me a note.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Good morning everyone! I got some shocking AMPS this morning -95. The previous BG las night was 284(+3,5) after 3U. So I didn't give him any insulin at all and keep checking every 30 min. He ate and his last reading at 7:55 am was 146. What is the protocol for this scenario? Also my syringes are do not have grading fir 0,5 U (they are U-40 0,5 cc ) so when I needed 0,5 u I was doing it visually . Do you recommend a better syringes? Thank you all.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Hi all!

I finished the spread sheet. So may be you will be able to tell guys what is going on with Rusty. The big surprise is that this morning his reading was 95, 12 hours after his shot. Normally it is in the 300 to 400 range. So I reduced his dosage to 1 1/2 U instead of 3, but not immediately. I took his BG readings every 30 minutes and gave him his shot when it started going up, 14 hours after his previous shot. My question is, why did his reading drop so drastically? BTW, does anyone know to insert a smilies into a message? I have tried every conceivable variation, with no success.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Easy question first. ;-)
When you are posting a message, do you have a bunch of smilies showing up on the right hand side of the screen? If so, all you have to do is click on one of them to put it in your message. There is a setting in your "control panel" that you can check.
In the control panel, click on the "board preferences" tab. Then click on the left hand side on the "edit posting defaults" link. There will be four "defaults" listed. The top 3 should be set to "yes", and the bottom one to "no". See if that helps?

Second - good job getting the spreadsheet up and running!

OK, there's no simple answer to why Rusty read so low this morning. He has gotten that sort of response from this dose before, as far as how low his numbers have gone. Usually though, that has happened "in the middle" of the cycle like you would expect it to happen. Last night, it looks like his cycle ran a lot longer than normal. There's a chance that at some time before the 12 hour mark, he was lower than 95, but not necessarily.

You did the right thing this morning, stalling and shooting once you saw the number rising. And reducing was also the right thing, IMO.

Just so I understand it, you fed him at AMPS time, then waited until 2 hours later (and the 282 BG) before you gave the shot, right? The only thing you didn't do "right" (and it isn't a huge deal) is that you fed him. If this happens again, what you want to do is stall without feeding (even if he hates the idea). You want to wait until the number comes up, but you want it to come up on it's own which it will as the insulin from the prior doses peters out. If you feed without shooting, the food will make the numbers come up, and when you test in the next hour or two, at least a part of the increased BG number will be due to the food. So you can't be sure how much is "food", and how much is "insulin wearing off".

Even though you did get a series of tests that showed numbers coming up, by reducing you made up for the "food boosted BG" by giving less insulin. If you had shot a full dose, that may have been more of an issue.

Lately, it looks like Rusty responds to the insulin better during the PM cycles than the AM cycles. Is there any obvious reason for that? Does he eat differently (more, less) day and night? Is he more active during the nighttime?

As far as the syringes, I had the same problem. I used syringes with no half unit marks, and dosing between the lines wasn't easy on my bifocular vision. :smile: One thing to consider trying is to use different syringes. You can use U100 syringes along with a "U40 to U100 conversion chart". There are a couple advantages to doing that. One is that most U100's come with 1/2 unit marks. The other is that you can see the insulin more easily because it "looks" like you are drawing a lot more up into the syringe. You aren't. If your dose was 2u in a U40 syringe, you would draw up to the 5u mark in a U100 syringe. The conversion factor is "times 2.5". Sounds confusing, but it's all figured out for you on the chart. I never did this, but I think most people here do. If you think this would help, plenty of people can help you understand it better than I just did!

Carl
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Carl, thank you for your feedback. And you did get this rigth, I fed him at BG=95 and then waited until it gone up. You are saing Rusty is not going to like it- its an understatement. His hanger pangs begin at around 3-4 am, so sleeping becomes very challenging, not along keeping him away from food till 9 am. I am willing to try. Thought I have to fight another member of the family that is even worse and always on Rusty's side. I just have to stand my ground. Will be working on it. Already made a huge progress as convincing my husband to agree on taking his BG reading - this is solely my job and he is horrified.

And you are rigth Rusty has better numbers at pm bc he doesn't eat and move as much. So I am planning to give him 1,5U if he continue to stay within same range are a little higher. His +9 reading was 166. Today was his best day. I hope he is transitioning into a reduced need in of insulin.

Thank you for syringes tip and taking time to analyze the situation.

Janetta and Rusty
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Your spreadsheet looks great! One thing to remember is that you want to shoot a rising number, not one that is going down. He has been going down today, so be sure the number after 166 is indeed going up.

If you test/shoot at 9am, you need to take the food up by 7. So if he wants to eat at 4, that'd be okay. Lots of us use automatic feeders that feed them when we want, then turn to an empty slot 2 hours before shot time.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Thank you Sue. His BG started going up. It was 224 at PMPS. And I am not feeding him PS at least for 2 h. It takes some getting used to for Rusty and the rest of us, but we are working on it. Automatic feeder are excellent idea, I did not know it exist for wet food. Any particular brand? Maybe it will solve the problem at night and I can catch up on my sleep, because at 4am Rusty is ravenous, so if he it's before that on the middle of the night it would be great. I will look into it.

You Sue and the rest of people that have being helping me are so amazing and the wealth of knowledge. If I would act according to my vet advice I would have been in serious trouble on the multiple occasions.

So thanks a lot Sue again.
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

I love my PetSafe5. It has five compartments so you can really space out the food. It also is programmed by the clock, rather than minutes or hours since the previous feeding, which I find easier. Most importantly, it is not easy to break into. Oliver broke two other feeders but was unable to ever get into this one. Not cheap - Amazon may have the best price although most PetSmarts carry it.

You don't have to, but I freeze the food, putting in a frozen puck before I go to sleep. It thaws and is ready to eat at that early morning hour. A cupcake pan holds a can of Fancy Feast perfectly. I use a silicone pan, fill it up, freeze, pop it out and put the pucks in a freezer bag in the freezer. Ready for me to plop in every night.

Here is a thread on the U100 needles with the conversion chart: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=64269&hilit=U100+needles
 
Re: Update on Rusty and question about his treatment with P

Sue, your recommendations are great. It's so simple but genius! hank you! :-D
 
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