Two cats diabetes and gastrointestinal lymphoma

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Marta

Member Since 2013
by Marta » Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:59 pm

I need help, my cat had diabetes more than a year ago and after two months with humulin she was ok. Now it is back but for some reason we can't control it. The vet for some strange reason started giving her lantus even if before humulin didn't give a problem , but no reaction at all she stays between 400 and 500. we switched back to humulin but the situation is the same. Today i did a curve at home a blood test every two hours but more then a curve it was nearly a flat line. The strange part is tha she seems great. How is it possible, what is happening?
Sorry for my english but i am from italy.
The cat is named beatrice, she is nine, seems to have no infection of kind (she ran a blood test a few weeks ago) and when i did the curve gave her 1,5 ui twice a day.
Today we switched to 2,5 ui twice a day. She eats food for diabetics

I also have another cat of the same age that we just found out has gastrointestinal lymphoma. We started treating him on lantus every 72 hours and cortisone. Only that after two treatments he started vomiting again and cought a bad cold so we are waiting to get him at least out of the cold. Has anyone experiance with collateral effects of lantus? And if it really works?

Thanks so much for your help. I am really having a difficult time with both cats in such a complicated situation
 
Hello and welcome to the board!

Let me know if the below makes sense. I can reword if you dont understand it. My husband is italian (Sulmona) so maybe he can translate if need be.

Lantus is a good insulin but there might be another issue... for example food has a big impact on diabetes. Is your diabetic food canned wet or dry? Wet food is lower in carbohydrates and better for diabetes. What kind of food is it?

Let me know
Wendy
 
Previous posts from this thread.
Marta said:
Hello
My cat name is Beatrice and she wieghs around six kg
No i don't think she has infection or any other thing as she has had a blood test a few weeks ago and everything was ok.
She eats food for dyabetics. It is called dyabetics by a brand called farmina. My old vet said it is the best in the market it is supposed to mimic mouse meat.
She has asma and sometimes does aereosol with flexotide but it is sometime she doesn't do it.
Today my vet told me to move to 2,5 ui of insulin in the morning and 2,5 ui in the evening and see what happens.
...
Click to expand...
 
This link for European and International foods may be helpful.

Alternatively, contact the manufacturer and see if you can get the "As Fed" values, not the "Guaranteed Analysis" which is likely on the can. An estimate of the carbohydrate can be made from the latter, but it isn't very precise.
 
She eats dry food they are from a brand called farmina my old vet that is a diabetologist said that it is the best food in the market , it mimics mouse meat. I don't think the problem is the food. Right now we increased the dose and after a few days i mudt check if it is working....finger crossed
 
Marta said:
She eats dry food they are from a brand called farmina my old vet that is a diabetologist said that it is the best food in the market , it mimics mouse meat. I don't think the problem is the food. Right now we increased the dose and after a few days i mudt check if it is working....finger crossed
Click to expand...

Found it online
"Ingredients: Dehydrated chicken meat, corn gluten, dehydrated pork meat, oats, spelt, corn, hydrolysed animal proteins, animal fat, pea fiber, dehydrated fish meat, powdered cellulose, dehydrated whole eggs, fish oil, dried beetroot pulp, linseed, potassium chloride, vegetable oil, taurine, inulin, fructooligosaccharide, mannanoligosaccharide, psyllium, sodium chloride, potassium citrate, calcium sulphate, chondroitin sulphate, glucosamine. Carbohydrate source: oats, spelt, corn."

Sorry, but yes, the food may have something to do with it. The 4th, 5th, and 6th ingredients are carbohydrates. Plus, mice don't come dehydrated. Cats do better with wet food - they less likely to gain excessive weight, less likely to have renal problems such as infections, stones, and damage.

We have found that the high carb foods, even if they are supposed to digest slowly, require more insulin than low carb, high protein, moderate fat. And by low carb, we mean the percent of calories from carbohydrate is under 10%. Take a good long look at the list I linked previously, and pop over to Cat Info for feline nutrition info written by a vet. And send that link to the vet.
 
My Gilbert just passed over the rainbow bridge, but I fed him mostly low carb wet food & very little "lower carb" dry. He just loved to crunch it so much I hated to take it completely away, but do agree it is best to if you can. I used Lantus w/ pretty good luck, but if humulin was working before? Might have to start slowly increasing her dose & w/ a mostly low carb wet food diet should be able to get her #s down. Good luck to you & your babies!
 
Thanks so much. What brand of food do you suggest for diabetes? It seems a real puzzle.
 
In italy there is a brand named solo by dnr it is not medicated for diabetes but looking at the label it has 100 % mmeat, like goat, pork and many others. It is a monoproteic food. This kind of food could work or it is not right? I am not quite sure where carboidrates con be hidden
It is a bit confusing what i should be looking for on the label to understand if the food is ok for diabetes.
What food did you give to your cat? Unfortunately here there are not as many brands of cat food as in america

Thanks so much for your help and patiance.
I guess in italy vets are not so oriented in food study yet....
 
Carbohydrates are mostly found in grains (corn, wheat, rice, rye), legumes (peas and beans), and starchy vegetables (potato, carrots).

There is some in liver, as that is where the body keeps a special stored form called glycogen, which may be released if the glucose goes too low.

You may find this explanation of how we determine calories from carbohydrates at Binky's Page
 
I looked up what monoproteic means & found that Italy has lots of meat based pet foods. That is good. I fed Fancy Feast & Friskies low carb versions, but you might not have those available where you live. The dry that you mentioned sounds ok as long as meat is #1 ingredient & low carb. You should be able to find a phone # on the food packaging & call the manufacturer to see what the level of carbohydrates are. With wet food it is best to stay below 10% carbs & most of what I fed was 5-6%. Again, meat needs to be 1st ingredient. Try to stay away from any vegetables or such as they are high carb & try to go mostly, if not all wet diet. I believe you will have a very good selection of cat food to choose from where you live.
 
Hi all. Thanks so much for your help.
I checkedher glicose last night at midnight but she is 489. Very high it seems that she doesn't respond to insulin. Today the vet told me to higher up the dose tomorrow morning and see what happens. I told him that the food could be part of the problem but he says that even if it can change a little bit things it doesn't explain such a non repondance to insulin. Thr next move is to try with caninsulin and see what happens, if even that doesn' t work well....no insulin at all and wait. I hate the idea. Do you have any experiance with non insulin respondante cats?
 
There was one cat in the past year who could not get controlled, despite every trick in the book and a few that were not. It was Xuxu and he eventually passed from it. It is possible there was an undetectable glucagonoma - a tumor secreting glucagon which increases the glucose; its very rare.
 
My Gilbert was very hard to regulate & really didn't get him anywhere near regulated until right before he passed. He was 13lb & seemed like his magic # was between 4 & 5 units 2 x day. You need to go up in increments though...I believe .50 is recommended & hold for 3 days before increase again. I was 5-6 months getting him adjusted to a good dose. They say to stay w/ Lantus for @ least 6 months to a yr & your vet may not think food could be an issue, but it is. My vet had not dealt w/ a lot of diabetic cats so I got most of my advice from this forum because there are thousands of diabetic cats here w/ tons of valuable info. Take a look @ Gilbert's spreadsheet. He had really high #s too & actually did really well till the very end. He was frisky...ran & played...chased anything that would move up until a few days before he passed. There is hope!
 
Hi all,
My vet doesn't think that food is not an issue it is just that he thinks that it can change a bit the insuline dose but not explain a reaction like this. Especcialy considering that even if it is not the best diet in the world it is still a very good diabetic food.
Surley i will insist for a change of diet anyway.
Today i wrote to my old diabetologist to explain the situation and lets see what he wrrites back. He is a specialist but doesn't work in my town any more. He moved far away.
Thank you all so much for your support. I really need it.
Does any of you have experiance with with gastrointestil lymphoma?
Thanks so much
 
My Spitzer may have had lymphoma, but passed before we could be sure.

What questions do you have regarding cancer treatment?
 
Ciao.
We are trying to give him leukeran, but are having a hard time. After two doses (1 every 72) he came up with a bad bad cold and had to suspend. It is a week now but my vet wants to try again. I agree because it has good chances to slow down the tumor but i am a bit afraid
Now he is fine, doesn't vomit, no big noises in the tommy when he eats and is hungry. He also had a shot of long term cortisone to help the leukoran 15 days ago, the only problem is he doesn't poo. It is akready four days. I know that this is caused by the tumor because it is making the walls of his intestine very stiff and it is one of the reasons i would like to give leukeran another try.
He is eating a canned food wich is about 90 % chicken and i am giving him zucchini to help him. I know the food is not enough rich in fibers and many vitamins but all the other complete foods were making him sick ( his tumor is probably a complication of ibd) so if he doesn't vomit and have a tommy ache it is already a lot at this point. He is taking also plasil that should deal with nausea and help intestinal moviments.

Still i am vary afraid to what could happen once he is back on leukeran.

Both my cats are in a critical situation and sometimes i feel i am juggling againts destiny.

I made up my mind that for no reason i want to put them in a medicine nightmare and that when the quality of their life is not the one of a cat i will let go. But it is difficult.
 
You said "I agree because it has good chances to slow down the tumor". Leukeran is used to treat small-cell intestinal lymphoma. That lymphoma is diffuse and there really are not tumors.
 
I understand that. I meant it slows down the situation or at least this is what understood...
 
Did you change her insulin dose?

Can you let me know what times you are testing? To really know how a dose is doing you need to test a few times a day for 2-3 days. Before every shot. Plus about 5-7 hours after the shot because you need to know how low the insulin is taking her. However you need to do this for a few days in a row, because there is a "bounce" reaction tgat can occur which will hide the real numbers and it can last a few days.

Wendy
 
Dear wendy,
When i did the curve i tested her every two hours from just before the morning shot 8am to the evening shot 8pm.
Today we run a big quantity of blood test to see if there is an illness under thst is interfering with the insulin. But it doesn't seem so. I am still waiting for some results (the had to send some samples in an outside lab) but the main blood panel is perfect also the thiroides values.
We moved to 3,5 ui in the morning and 3 in the evening. I will wait a few days and check her values.
The next step could be to change insulin again,
This time caninsulin. I know it it not a good insulin but she seems not to react to human ones. Both my vet and the diabetologist seem a bit puzzled. Unfortunately insulin resistance exists and if it is the case it is a big big mess.
If you have any suggestions please let me know...
Thanks so much
Marta
 
We already concidered a bounce reaction and a somogi and we tried lowering the insulin and testing again but nothing. Today we did the fructosamines aswell just to make sure. If they are not as high as the values i found then maybe i didn't do the test wee but i today using the blood for the exams we checked and she was nearly 600. Of course she was under stress and i guess 500 is a more realistic value. But it is incredibly high. The strange thing is all her other values are perfect.
 
Why was the insulin started at 1.5 in the beginning? Was it because of weight or was that the previous dose?

Normally we start at .5 or 1 unit and hold that for a week to let the shed fill.

The dry food will bring up the BG and keep it high. My cat would raise 200 points from a few pieces of dry so she is no longer free to roam outside when I am not home.
 
It was 1.5 morning and 1.5 evening and the reason for starting so low was that she already had a remission from diabetes and they wanted to go slowly as her pancreas could start working again.
As for dry, i told my diabetologis but he says that this dry is ok ( it is for diabetic cats) and it shouldn't change that much the values. She doesn' t like very much the diabetic soft food, actually not at all. I told both my vets (i have a general and a specialist) my concerns about the food but they both think it can't explain the situation. She doesn't react at all to the insulin shots. It is not that she reacts a bit, glicemia just doesn't go down.
This is why we were searching for a hidden desease.
I will of course give a shot to a complete change of diet at some point as it seems that nothing else is works.

What food do you give your cat?
 
Sorry to answer your previuose post because of the weight. She weighs more then six kg so 1,5 is very little. She is a bit fat but not as much as it seems. She is very long and a very big cat.
0.5 is too too low for such weight. I moved to 0,5 at the very end when she was nearly in total remission.
Concidere that when i discovered that she had diabetes again her glicemia was quite quite high.

P.s i mean 0,5 insulin units on a human insulin siringe. I have read somewhere that there are different kind of measurements for insulin.
 
Marta said:
Sorry to answer your previous post because of the weight. She weighs more then six kg so 1,5 is very little. She is a bit fat but not as much as it seems. She is very long and a very big cat.
0.5 is too too low for such weight. I moved to 0,5 at the very end when she was nearly in total remission.
Consider that when I discovered that she had diabetes again her glycemia was quite quite high.

P.S. I mean 0,5 insulin units on a human insulin siringe. I have read somewhere that there are different kind of measurements for insulin.
Click to expand...

The initial dose of Lantus is calculated by lean weight in Kg * 0.25:
For 6 Kg * 0.25 = 1.5 units estimated starting dose for Lantus is correct for where to start.

After 5 days on the starting dose, or 3 full days on any later dose, if the nadirs (low point between 5 to 7 hours after the shot) are above 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L), you may raise the dose 0.25 units, which you have to eyeball/guess as the syringes don't measure that finely.

The only difference on insulin syringes has to do with the number of units per 1 mL.
U-100 insulin is 100 unites per mL
U-40 insulin is 40 units per mL
and so on.
 
Ok so I suspect your problem is the dry food. Dry food is bad for diabetes -even the diabetic dry! And many cats dont like diabetic wet food because it tastes like liver and they dont want it after a few days. So we choose low carbohydrate canned wet food that you buy in a pet store or supermarket- This usually means you want a pate that does not have gravy in it.

Look at these links and see if you can get any.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-mMJBQ_r05GdDBEY0pWbURmRE0/edit
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=64843&p=966427&hilit=italy#p966427


Wendy
 
Thanks for the link. What i don't understand is what kind of food inshould be chosing. I mean what do i have to look for. It is very confusing. What food do you give to your cat? But is it possible that the first time insulin with this dry food worked perfect and now nothing at all, i feel it is a little strange. Have you ever heard of a situation like this? I find it so extreme.
 
Canned or Raw food that is mostly meat and has under 10 percent calories, not weight, from carbohydrates.
 
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