Tiki After Dark Formulas: Phos Content

[Briere Fur Mom]

Just a quick question for all of you knowledgeable cat foodies.

@Olive & Paula was so kind to share the nutrient content of the Tiki After Dark formulas. Thanks a bunch Paula

Is the Phosphorus content in Tiki After Dark too high for "Renally" challenged kitties? The dry matter basis Phos. levels for the different formulas we use range from 1.04% - 1.23%.
According to Tanya's webpage the ideal Phos. level(dry matter basis) is under .50% for CRF.
Am I correct in thinking that Tiki After Dark is a bit high in Phos.(especially for the Renal kitties)?

TIA

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

For cats with no renal problems those are just fine but for one with CKD I would think they are bit high, the 0.50% that Tanya's web page mentions is ideal but if his phosphorus levels ain't too high for what I know you could consider up to 1% and those would still be ok, if it's higher and he won't eat lower phosphorus food you may need to consider some phosphorus binder

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

For cats with no renal problems those are just fine but for one with CKD I would think they are bit high, the 0.50% that Tanya's web page mentions is ideal but if his phosphorus levels ain't too high for what I know you could consider up to 1% and those would still be ok, if it's higher and he won't eat lower phosphorus food you may need to consider some phosphorus binder

Thanks a bunch for the reply.
I switched my boy Ittle from Weruva Cats in the kitchen(various formulas) to Tiki After Dark due to the superior ingredient deck(no gums). Just trying to adhere to the best commercial diet available for obligate carnivores with diabetes. Well after switching foods, I noticed a little polydipsia/polyuria. Checked BG...#s still good(went OTJ 11/19). Ittle is going on 14 yrs old so, the chances for renal problems is a factor. His last chem panel(August 2019) was purrfect besides glucose. Things can change quickly with these furry ones though. He is due for a senior panel later this month.
I'm probably being paranoid but, think that aging cats might benefit from having less Phos. in their food; even without apparent renal disease. I'm probably wrong though

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

I'm probably being paranoid but, think that aging cats might benefit from having less Phos. in their food; even without apparent renal disease. I'm probably wrong though

No I think you are quite right wanting to lower his phosphorus intake is better but since his kidneys are ok I would suggest you give preference to his diabetes, using low carb food and trying to use food as low in phosphorus as possible but do not stress about it being under 1%

 

[Tomlin]

I recently had a lengthy conversation with an internal medicine specialist who sub specializes in feline CKD about phosphorous content. First and foremost, he pretty much said what Veronica is saying with regard to as long as a cat is in the early stages of CKD and phosphorus is not high, there is not a need to restrict it. At the same time, avoiding or rotating some of the brands & proteins that are very high, specifically high in inorganic phosphorus, is a good idea. Researchers are finding that there is a difference in the effects of organic vs inorganic phosphorus in feline diets with the inorganic being more of an issue. I'm attaching a link to a recent study summarizing studies and what they are finding regarding the organic vs inorganic Phosphorous (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6390407/). If you are into data you can read the entire study or if not, you can just read the abstract in the beginning and the discussion at the end and get plenty of information. In addition, they are looking at phosphorus and calcium ratios in diets as one does effect the other. One potential issue with restricting phosphorous, even in diets for felines who are diagnosed as being in the early stages of CKD, is that it can increase the possibility of causing what is called ionized hypercalcaemia. Again, there is a balance and an interplay between calcium, phosphorus not to mention magnesium, digestion etc.. Balance is important & the body does a great job with it. It is when the body cannot effectively balance phosphorus or calcium etc due to an underlying disease state that restrictions come into play. Repeated labs and clinical symptoms/issues help with determine when such restrictions are necessary.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

I would like to know why the last vet I took Zoe to said, she was in early stages and insisted she NEEDED to eat the script formula. 12 cans cost me 40 bucks and SHE WOULDNT GO NEAR THE STUFF.

 

[Tomlin]

Added note--the Tiki Dark is awesome in that it balances Omega 6 with Omega 3. I think most, if not all of that particular line, based on contact directly with Tiki, is using tuna oil vs sunflower oil for essential fatty acids. This is another area of investigation going on as I type, but researchers are finding that just like with our own diet, diets high in Omega 6 and low in Omega 3 are associated with inflammation in dogs and cats. My T has an underlying inflammatory issue and went through a flare a few months ago. He was eating the Tiki Chicken Puka Puka Luau leading up to the flare. There is no way to know for sure, but his internal medicine specialists noted the high amount of Omega 6 without the balance of Omega 3 in that diet. The exact "ideal" ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 for felines is not known yet, but again, they are finding that a lot of Omega 6 without Omega 3 can be associated with inflammation.

 

[Tomlin]

I would like to know why the last vet I took Zoe to said, she was in early stages and insisted she NEEDED to eat the script formula. 12 cans cost me 40 bucks and SHE WOULDNT GO NEAR THE STUFF.

Unfortunately, going to the regular vet is the equivalent of going to our primary care doctor and I would never use my primary care doctor for complicated illnesses. After it has been properly worked up by a specialist and if they just need to follow a simple plan of management determined by the specialist, unless something changes, then that is fine, otherwise, I always work with internal medicine. When issues like CKD, diabetes etc occur, I find that life is much easier by moving the care to an internal medicine specialist which is the equivalent of our own specialists. If you are able to find one that sub specializes or has particular interest in a specific disease state (CKD vs Endocrinology vs Urology etc) that is even better. They are the ones who are the most knowledgeable and best at knowing when to initiate a particular diet &/or medication/treatment.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Unfortunately, going to the regular vet is the equivalent of going to our primary care doctor and I would never use my primary care doctor for complicated illnesses. After it has been properly worked up by a specialist and if they just need to follow a simple plan of management determined by the specialist, unless something changes, then that is fine, otherwise, I always work with internal medicine. When issues like CKD, diabetes etc occur, I find that life is much easier by moving the care to an internal medicine specialist which is the equivalent of our own specialists. If you are able to find one that sub specializes or has particular interest in a specific disease state (CKD vs Endocrinology vs Urology etc) that is even better. They are the ones who are the most knowledgeable and best at knowing when to initiate a particular diet &/or medication/treatment.

Yes I know this was a routine blood workup. I had no clue there was anything wrong. Her next visit will be at the least at a "cat only" clinic.

 

[Briere Fur Mom]

Thank you so much for the wealth of information @Tomlin
You blew my mind a little
Love to keep my noodle thinking

 

[Tomlin]

You are welcome ! I have access to some great researchers and nutritionists and have been trying to learn more about the nutrients vs ingredients and also about the gut microbiome as well. There is a lot of very interesting research going on and I try to keep up with what they are learning & discovering within this area. It is definitely complicated

 

[JanetNJ]

Most were around 1.2-2. Not bad. My cat is stage 2 so I switched to weruva which has a lot of choices under 1%

 

[Veronica & Babu-chiri]

I would like to know why the last vet I took Zoe to said, she was in early stages and insisted she NEEDED to eat the script formula. 12 cans cost me 40 bucks and SHE WOULDNT GO NEAR THE STUFF

A lot of vets really do not know much about nutrition other than the panflets the manufacturers give them, it happens with diabetes and it happens also with CKD

With CKD balancing a lot of issues is important, because first you do not want them to lose weight there are research that actually found that the prognosis with a cat that whose weight was normal and stayed normal during the first stages is way better than the ones that lost weight, so first priority is for them to eat which may not be so easy given the fact that CKD can sometimes cause some stomach discomfort so in my opinion the best food is the one they actually eat and you will need to work around it which sometimes means giving supplements or phosphorus binder or vitamins as an extra instead of everything coming packed in the can .

That being said you also want them to have as much high quality protein as possible so that they do not start loosing muscle mass and most CKD prescription diets are quite low in protein and high in carbs, CKD prescription diets are ok and sometimes is what they need to eat but I would not consider them unless CKD is very advanced

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

A lot of vets really do not know much about nutrition other than the panflets the manufacturers give them, it happens with diabetes and it happens also with CKD

With CKD balancing a lot of issues is important, because first you do not want them to lose weight there are research that actually found that the prognosis with a cat that whose weight was normal and stayed normal during the first stages is way better than the ones that lost weight, so first priority is for them to eat which may not be so easy given the fact that CKD can sometimes cause some stomach discomfort so in my opinion the best food is the one they actually eat and you will need to work around it which sometimes means giving supplements or phosphorus binder or vitamins as an extra instead of everything coming packed in the can .

That being said you also want them to have as much high quality protein as possible so that they do not start loosing muscle mass and most CKD prescription diets are quite low in protein and high in carbs, CKD prescription diets are ok and sometimes is what they need to eat but I would not consider them unless CKD is very advanced

Thank you